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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: moggies12 on Saturday 27 May 17 16:29 BST (UK)
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This is my Grandad David Scott b1881 near Dundee & family. Can anyone help by identifying this uniform? The smallest girl was born in 1911, so guessing the date to be during WW1. Sorry there are no clear badges...
Many thanks :-)
(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff98/timetostart/Photo0067_zpsslxo801w.jpg) (http://s236.photobucket.com/user/timetostart/media/Photo0067_zpsslxo801w.jpg.html)
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You are correct on the date, it is WW1 British Army uniform. Rank of Private.
From the photo it is impossible to tell what Regiment or Corps he belongs to. You will see a brass shoulder title on his shoulder strap. If you are lucky you might be able to check this with a magnifying glass on the original print. It will be some letters or a letter / number combination. Post back with you findings.
Cheers, Ade.
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I think that the shoulder title may well be a Territorial one, do you have the name of his wife and children, just to give a bit more information to go on :)
Frank.
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Have you tried searching for his military records?
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He looks too old to have served in WW2, so assuming his military service was restricted to WW1 and before, you could order his records from the MoD. They charge you a £30 admin fee, assuming it hasn't gone up since I used the service in 2015.
WW1 records are very, very patch, however -- many were lost to fire when the record office was bombed during the Blitz. You'll only get whatever they can find.
WW2 records are still closed.
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Thanks for your speedy replies!
I've tried looking at military records but with a name like David Scott, I've had no luck narrowing it down.
His wife is Marjory Annandale Knight 1883-1929. I've been quite successful finding census records etc...he was a gardener, but haven't a clue about what he did during the war.
I'll need to look out the photo, but not sure it's clear enough to see the badge.
Thanks again :-)
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https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records
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https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records
This link is for records after 1920. If he only served in WW1 his records should be online unless they were amongst the many destroyed in WW2
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Not having any look with his service records I'm afraid, it may well be they were among the 60% plus which were destroyed in the blitz :-\
Frank.
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If he was similar age to his wife he could still have served in the WW1, my grandfather served and he was born in 1873.
:)
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Thanks Frank. I hadn't realised so many records were destroyed. I'm working on trying to get a better view of badges and buttons!
I've never really looked much into military history. I found a little bit on my other grandad but put that down to him having a slightly less common name!
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There are a couple of trees on Ancestry but they don't have a lot of information, there are also a couple of "Private" ones so I don't know what information they hold.
Frank.
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If he was similar age to his wife he could still have served in the WW1, my grandfather served and he was born in 1873.
:)
Yes Medpat, my other grandad was in the Royal Marines Labour Corps in Dieppe 1918-19 and he was born in 1869, so not a youngster!
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In my opinion he is a regular soldier not a conscript. The daughter with him holds a swagger stick. That item may be a photographer's prop.
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Have been watching this thread..I too have a family member in what looks to be very much the same Uniform......BUT! my problem is I can't find any records at all on my man.
Question!..would a soldier who's records are "lost/destroyed" still be named on a list...or would all information be "lost/destroyed"
Good luck moggie12 in finding more
cheers
Yonks
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You should be able to find a medal card but there's not much info on them.
My maternal gt grandfather a master bricklayer was in the Labour Corps for a few months, either they found out he lied about his age or he couldn't keep up with the work - he was born in 1862.
:)
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In my opinion he is a regular soldier not a conscript. The daughter with him holds a swagger stick. That item may be a photographer's prop.
Agree about the prop!
Why do you think regular rather than conscript, barryd?
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Have been watching this thread..I too have a family member in what looks to be very much the same Uniform......BUT! my problem is I can't find any records at all on my man.
Question!..would a soldier who's records are "lost/destroyed" still be named on a list...or would all information be "lost/destroyed"
Good luck moggie12 in finding more
cheers
Yonks
Thanks Yonks, He died the year I was born, so all memories are 2nd hand. I posted the photo on Facebook and another family member thinks he was in 51st Highland Division, so that's a bit of a clue, hoping some of my older family members might remember more. Good luck with your search too!
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Shoulder title looks like the bugle & bow. Could be any Rifle Regt. but the Scottish Rifles (Cameronians) springs to mind.
Added:
unfortunately I can't see a David Scott in that Regt.
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Why do you think regular rather than conscript, barryd?
Moustache, puttees, demeanour. Only a thought.
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With my man...there are 1120 men with same name..and not knowing what regiment my man was with..its quite a task..plus I don't have subs to forces-war-records. I have at times paid up..but as said..not knowing any thing!
cheers
Yonks
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It's not easy is it....but fun!
Thanks all for looking him up for me!
My current profile photo is my maternal grandad, who also has a pretty impressive moustache!
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Good afternoon,
I would agree on the bugle horn above shoulder titles but that would be light infantry. Cameronians did have a bugle horn as part of their badge, it was surmounted by a wreath with a star within it. It came from the 90th foot when amalgamated in 1881.
I would also expect to see tartan trews or kilt for Scottish regt.
I would agree pre war because of the regtl insignia being on the uniform but post 1908 because he has a web belt. Brought out that year to relace the old leather slade wallace equipment.
Most regular soldiers would have their own swagger sticks for walking out. Either purchased or homemade, they were regarded as a status symbol when walking down the street. Stick under one arm, lady on the other. Also made a handy weapon for the unarmed soldier returning to barracks after a few drinks.
John915
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Good afternoon,
I would agree on the bugle horn above shoulder titles but that would be light infantry. Cameronians did have a bugle horn as part of their badge, it was surmounted by a wreath with a star within it. It came from the 90th foot when amalgamated in 1881.
I would also expect to see tartan trews or kilt for Scottish regt.
I would agree pre war because of the regtl insignia being on the uniform but post 1908 because he has a web belt. Brought out that year to relace the old leather slade wallace equipment.
Most regular soldiers would have their own swagger sticks for walking out. Either purchased or homemade, they were regarded as a status symbol when walking down the street. Stick under one arm, lady on the other. Also made a handy weapon for the unarmed soldier returning to barracks after a few drinks.
John915
Thanks John!
The littlest girl was born late December 1911, which is why I was thinking it was during the war.
If it's not too silly a question, why would the presence of a shoulder insignia make it pre-war?
My military knowledge is pretty non-existent, so thank you all for sharing yours!
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You may need to find the Electoral Rolls (1918/19) for where he was living at the time assuming he was still serving, this will give his Regt.
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You may need to find the Electoral Rolls (1918/19) for where he was living at the time assuming he was still serving, this will give his Regt.
I found a David Scott in the exact area where I know they lived in the 'Absentee Voters List' for 1919, and thought YES! but the listing says MM, HMS Armadale Castle, Lieut RNR, so I need to keep looking. Thanks for the idea though Jim, I did find some other family members there so it did help fill in different 'blanks'!!
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Good afternoon,
The one thing to remember is place of birth or abode is no indication of regt you served in. At the start of ww1 most men served in a local regt but were moved around to compensate for losses after major battles.
For instance my maternal grandfather was in the Royal Sussex to start, his local regt. He finished in the Northumberland Fusiliers, his medals all say Queens regt which the RS became part of.
John915
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Why do you think regular rather than conscript, barryd?
Moustache, puttees, demeanour. Only a thought.
Good afternoon,
I would agree on the bugle horn above shoulder titles but that would be light infantry. Cameronians did have a bugle horn as part of their badge, it was surmounted by a wreath with a star within it. It came from the 90th foot when amalgamated in 1881.
I would also expect to see tartan trews or kilt for Scottish regt.
I would agree pre war because of the regtl insignia being on the uniform but post 1908 because he has a web belt. Brought out that year to relace the old leather slade wallace equipment.
Most regular soldiers would have their own swagger sticks for walking out. Either purchased or homemade, they were regarded as a status symbol when walking down the street. Stick under one arm, lady on the other. Also made a handy weapon for the unarmed soldier returning to barracks after a few drinks.
John915
Sorry, I have to disagree with most of the above.
He is NOT pre war, neither is he a reg...A regular soldier would not have his puttees in such a deplorable state.
The 1908 web equipment replaced the 1903 Bandolier Equipment, not Slade Wallace. The brass shoulder titles in 1908 were not there...They had cloth ones
The "Walking Out Cane" to give the "swagger stick" its correct nomenclature was a private purchase item for ALL rank and file. Indeed there was a prescribed "stick drill" for it. It was to keep a soldiers hands out of his pockets and to add a bit of class. Stick Drill only left the army in the 1960s. All rank and file had to carry them when leaving barracks after 1800 hrs to go into town or where ever.
The wife MAY have a sweetheart brooch at her neck. I cannot see the detail, but it may be more patent on the original.
She is also wearing the clothes of wartime period.
So, a wartime pic and not pre war.
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Also, I am not convinced by the "shoulder title" its far too far up the epaulette, and looks more like a fault on the exposure. The original may support this, or it may show something clearer.
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Sorry, I have to disagree with most of the above.
He is NOT pre war, neither is he a reg...A regular soldier would not have his puttees in such a deplorable state.
The 1908 web equipment replaced the 1903 Bandolier Equipment, not Slade Wallace. The brass shoulder titles in 1908 were not there...They had cloth ones
The "Walking Out Cane" to give the "swagger stick" its correct nomenclature was a private purchase item for ALL rank and file. Indeed there was a prescribed "stick drill" for it. It was to keep a soldiers hands out of his pockets and to add a bit of class. Stick Drill only left the army in the 1960s. All rank and file had to carry them when leaving barracks after 1800 hrs to go into town or where ever.
The wife MAY have a sweetheart brooch at her neck. I cannot see the detail, but it may be more patent on the original.
She is also wearing the clothes of wartime period.
So, a wartime pic and not pre war.
Thanks for that Scrimnet,
You are right about the date...like I said before, although I know next to nothing about the military, the fact the smallest girl's birth was Dec 1911, the photo had to be taken during, rather than before, the war.
I did think 'ouch' when you said no regular would have his puttees in such a deplorable state! But on looking closer at the photo, they do look a bit ramshackle! ::)
I'm afraid I can't lay my hands on the original, so flaws in the photo or insignia...it may never be clear!
Thank you all again for your input :)
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There are a couple of ways you may find more...if you have them on the 1911 census, try looking at the Absent Voters list for the area.
Also of use would be his local newspapers archive...a trawl through them often pays dividends :)
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What a lovely photo...it deserves some attention though. Why not put it up for repair on the Photo Restoration board.
Carol