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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: ThumbelinaPM on Monday 29 May 17 16:02 BST (UK)
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Just had a trip to Edburgh and have returned with copies of 14 sasine records.
Does anyone enjoy trying to decipher these or is there any standard wording you could link me to?
I have sussed Att. and the year format Jajvi etc. That still leaves an awful lot to decipher an transcribe.
Any help greatly appreciated. ???
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Some notes available from the NRS which include:
http://webarchive.nrscotland.gov.uk/20170106021747/https://nrscotland.gov.uk/research/guides/sasines
Understanding a sasine
The basic structure of a sasine is straightforward. It will begin with the date, and thereafter sets out the principal parties (usually with the grantee/buyer named first), the type of transaction, including the land involved, the precise time that it took place, and the names of the witnesses. Sasines before the early 20th century are normally handwritten, however. While Victorian copperplate handwriting is simple to read, the handwriting of the 17th and early 18th centuries can be much more difficult. Practice, as always, makes it easier. Nor does it help that for many years the clerks paid for the blank sasine volumes out of their wages and so had a vested interest in cramming as much handwriting onto each page as possible. A more serious obstacle is that many sasines, even down to the late 18th century, are in Latin. Again these follow a standard form. A Latin dictionary together with the styles and translations of sasines given in Peter Gouldesborough, 'A Formulary of Old Scots Legal Documents' (Stair Society, Edinburgh, 1985) pp. 108-111, will allow most readers to understand what is going on.
Also www.scan.org.uk/knowledgebase/topics/sasine_abbs_topic.htm
Monica
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Why not post the first page of one and we'll see if we can start you off.
I know they can be incredibly difficult to decipher, especially the early ones.
It's not just the handwriting, and the fact the the scribes had to pay for the paper ( so I'm lead to believe), which meant they squeezed in as much as possible with very cramped writing, but also the particular Scottish words and terms that are used in them.
Ah, the joys of genealogy! ;)
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Dont think I can make the doc snall enough to scan and upload.
We'll have a go and see how far we get.
Thank you both.
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You can always do it in bits Thumbelina - say, the top third or quarter.
This has worked ok in the past.
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here is the first part of 1 of 14 sasines!
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Andrew Thomson pt 2
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Andrew Thomson Pt 3 & 4
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So first two clips:
Seasine
Andrew Thomson
Att Hamilton the second day of September Jajvijle and fifty
seven years the seasine underwriten was produced by Basil
Golder (?) writer in Hamilton and writt(en) the said day as follows
In the Name of God amen let it be known to all men by this present pubblick Instrument that upon the twenty
first day of July Jajvijle and fifty seven years and Reign of our So(veri)gn Lord George the Second Be the thirty first year
In presence of me notary publick and witneses subscribing Compeared personally ane Discreet man Mathew Thomson younger of whiteridge Baillie in that part by the precept of Seasine after insert specially Constitute
unto with another Discreet man andrew Thomson of whiteridge aforesaid and attorney for andrew Thomson his
youngest lawfull son the said Andrew Thomson [ ] fores(ai)d having in his hamds ane heretable Bond of
compeared = appeared
ane = one
the Date under written made and Granted by John Thom of Barnhead To the said andrew Thomson his son
whereby for the Cause therein specified the said John Thom Bound and obliged him his heirs & [ ]
lawfully and sufficiently under the Reversion therein and under writen To Infeft and Sease the said andrew
Thomson younger his heirs and assigneys In all and Haill his haill lands and mailling of Barnhead with
houses Biggings yeards mosses mairs meadows parts pendicles and Haill pertinents thereof with the Teinds parsonage
and vicaraige of the said Lands all Lying in the parish of East Monkland and Sherrifdome of Lanark as the
therein is att presently possist by himself and his tennants and in ane yearly @rent of two hundred and
twenty two merks six shillings and eight pennys Scots money or in such ane ? @rent less or more as
shall answer and Correspond to the principal summe of five thousand two hundred and fifty merks Scots
‘all and haill’ = everything
@ = ‘annual rent’
‘mailling’ - I think it’s a variant of this http://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/dost/maling_vbl_n_n
The gap at the top after ‘heirs’ would be something like ‘Executors’ but I can’t quite make out what is probably a contraction of the word.
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Clip 3 & 4
money by the Laws and Lets of parliament for the Terme yearly to be uplifted and taken at two Terms in
the year whitsunday and Martinmass by Equall portions Beggining the first Terms payment of the said
@rent at the term of martinmass next for the half year preceding that Term and the oth(e)r at whitsunday
thereafter and so furth yearly and Termly at the said Tyms Dureing the [next?] Redemption furth of all and
Haill his said Lands of Burnhead and aprs fors(ai)d with the pertinents or furth of any part or portion thereof
Rents maills ferms profites and Dutys of the samen and Teinds parsonage and Vicarage thereof
I think ‘apts’ after ‘Land of Burnhead’ will be ‘apprutenances’
Note this looks more like “Burn’ here - more like ‘Barn’ in the first clip.
by two Severall Infeftments and manner of holding in manner ment(ioned) in the said Heretable Bond as
so s containing ane Clause of absolute warrendice assignation to the maills and dutys of the said lands
with sundry oth(e)r Clauses and the precept of Seasine after insert(ed) more fully Bears which Heretable Bond the said
andrew thomson [ ] forsaid presented and Delivered to the said Mathew Thomson Baillie also forsaid and Required him
[ ] the office of Bailliary committed to him by the precept of Seasine therein Cont(ained) which desire the said Baillie
finding to be reasonable he accepted of the said Bond into his hands and thereafter Delivered the same to me nottary
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Goldie, just glanced at your transcript to see whether I could offer anything to help with the gaps (and bearing in mind that I know less about sasines and Scotland generally than just about anyone).
In the first clip, second line from bottom, I wonder whether we have:
...Andrew Thomson of whiteridge as proctor* and attorney...
* This word is contracted - maybe prtr?
Then in the next line:
...the said Andrew Thomson proctor* forsd haveing in his hands...
* Once more in contracted form - maybe prttr?
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Sounds good HD. I couldn't work out quickly what it might have been a contraction for.
Also in clip 4. I think it's '.....and Required him to execute the office of Bailliary...'. It's been gnawing away at me all day! ;)
Also just realised my typo of 'hamds' instead of 'hands'! DOH!
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In the first clip, second line from bottom, I wonder whether we have:
...Andrew Thomson of whiteridge as proctor* and attorney...
* This word is contracted - maybe prtr?
I think this might be pctr, a contracted form of procurator.
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Thank you SO much - this is wonderful stuff!
I am trying to add more of this record but am getting an error saying I've added clip no. 5 with same name but I haven't!
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try again...
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last was 7 ( I will try to do 5 & 6 at end)
Here is 8 & 9
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Thank you SO much - this is wonderful stuff!
I am trying to add more of this record but am getting an error saying I've added clip no. 5 with same name but I haven't!
It doesn't have to be you that has added a file as an attachment with a file name that has been used before. It can be any file added by anyone. Try again with a completely different name and see if that works better :)
Monica
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Number 10 and number 5 (only 6 to come)
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thanks for the heads up - I had no idea!
here are 5 & 6 so that's the complete record I hope.
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Ptr could be Portioner...
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Clip 5
finding to be reasonable he accepted of the said Bond unto his hands and thereafter (this word is cut off somewhat - I think it’s probably ‘delivered’) the same to me nottary
publick to be openly read and published in audience of himself and the witneses subscribing all which accord
-ingly I did and of the precept of seasine therein Cont(ained) which the Tenor follows attour To the effect the said andrew Thom
-son and his forsaids may be the more Readily Infeft and seased in the said Lands Teinds and ap(u)rt(enances) forsaid
the yearly @rent as specified upliftable forth thereof I hereby Declare and Require you mathew Thomson younger
of whyteridge and each one of you conillie and seally my Baillies in that part hereby Specially Constitute that
upon sight hereof ye Pass to the ground of the said lands and there give and Deliver Heretable estate and
sasine Reall actuall and corporall possession of all and Haill my said Lands and maillings of Burnhead with
'conillie and seally’ – conjointly and severally – ie, together and singly
attour - over and above
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Clip 6
seasine Reall actuall and Corporall possession of all and Haill my said Lands and maillings of Burnhead hous
-es biggings yeards moses muirs meadows parts and haill pertinents thereof Teinds parsonage and vicarage
of the same and of the yearly @rent forsaid upliftable furth thereof corresponding and [E ing] to the bond price
[ ] sum all lying and possist as said is To the said andrew Thomson and his forsaids by Deliverance to them or
there Certtaine attorney or attorneys in there name Bearers hereof of Earth and Stone of and upon the Ground
of the said Lands with ane handfull of Grass and Corn for the said Teinds and a penny money for the said @rent
as use is providing and Declaring like as it is hereby provided and Declaired that theis presents and
supplements To follow hereupon Together with the said lands Teinds yearly @rent and agr(eements?) as specified are and
shall be Redeemable by me the said John Thom my heirs or assigneys from the said andrew Thomson or his
I'm guessing the word after 'corresponding' to the price is something like 'estimating' but can't quite see it.
It could be 'portioner' Thumbelina. I have only ever seen the word the written out in full, so don't know what abbreviation a scribe might use. What does it say in the Index for this sasine? Sometimes it will say in the listing if the person is a portioner.
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Thanks Goldie, this is great.
Yes he is listed as a Portioner on the index. Sorry I hadn't spotted that before.
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Clip 7 & 8 & 9
forsaids at the said Term of whitsunday next or at any other Terme of whitsunday or Martinmass thereafter of the said
principall sum of five Thousand two hundred and fifty merks money forsaid and Haill bygone @rents
thereof that shall be Due and Resting for the Terme with what charges and Expences the said andrew Thomson
shall Lay oute in Infefting himself or his forsaids herein or in pursueing for the said maills and Dutys or
shall lay out in any manner for securing themselves anrent the premises or in Doeing Dilligence herein of
at which there own accompt subscribed with there own hand shall be probative Instead of all other probation whatso
-ver or by Lawfull Consignation of the same for there use and Behoofe the place of Redemption to be at the East
(cut off a bit) .. land Kirk at the south Entry thereof and the consignation Incase of absence or Refussall to be in the hands of
any responsall Landed man within the parish upon the perrill and Hazard of the consignor I the said John Thoms
-on my forsaid making True and Lawfull pronounation to the said andrew Thomson or his forsaids of our Intention
to [ ] two months at least Before using the said order of Redemption personally or att there dwelling place
in presence of a nother ane witness In E and that thies presents or a coppie hereof or of the seasine To follow hereon shall be as Sufficient for useing the said order of Redemption as if there were particular letters of
Revision made subscribed and registratt a part for that effect and upon aur makeing payment or consignat
-ion as above the said andrew Thomson and his forsaids shall be bound and obliged to Reside and dwell them
-selves of the said Lands Teinds and aprs and of there presents and Infeftment to follow herein In our favours
and grant us all writers needfull for that purpuss upon aur own charges allennerly and this an no ways ye
have undone the which to Doe I hereby commit to you conllie and seally my full power by this my precept of sea
-sine for that Effect In witness whereof I have subscribed these presents wryten upon stamped paper Conform to act of
parliament [ ] by andrew Clark writer in the Shotts consisitng of this and the three preceeding pages at wester
(cut off)..ffat the twenty second day of July Jaivijle and fifty seven years Before these witnesses John Clark son to
the said andrew Clark and the said andrew clark writer hereof (sic subs(cribed)) To: Thom John Clark wittness andrew
clark witness after Reading of which Heretable Bond and precept of seasine therein cont(ained) * the said andrew Thom
* the usual phrase here is ‘therein contained and above inserted’ - but I can only guess at all the abbreviations used here!
allenarly = http://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/allenarly
I think there must be just a little more to finish it off Thumbelina.
Glad to see we found out he is 'portioner'.
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You're right - there is this clip too.
I hope that is the end of the sasine as I don't have the next page!
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witness after Reading of which Heretable Bond and presept of sasine herein cont(ained) & above inserted the said matthew Thom
-son Baillie forsaid gave and declared Heretable State and Seasine Reall actuall and Corporall possession of all and haill
the said lands and mailling of Burnhead and app(ertenances)s forsaid with the pertinents thereof Teinds parsonage and vicarage of
of the same and of the yearly @rent forsaid upliftable furth thereof To the said andrew Thompson [ ] and that by Deliver
ant to the said andrew thompson of whiteridge as prtr and attorney for him of Earth and stone of and upon the ground
of the said lands and of ane handfull of corn and grass for the said Teinds and a penny money for the @rent as case
as the forme and Tenor of the said Bond and precept of Seasine In all points whereupon and upon the haill premises
the said andrew Thomson prtr forsaid asked and Took Instruments ane or more in my hands these things
There should be another couple of lines that say when it was done, (eg ‘between the hours of three and five in the afternoon’), which day, and the names of the witnesses.
If you haven’t got it, and you ordered them from NRS, I suggest you ring them up and see if they can help you out if you really want that last bit.
You can see that Sasines follow a pretty much set pattern - with people's names and places changing, and whatever piece of land that was being passed on.
Perhaps you will be able to make out more on the next one - and each one gets easier!
Good luck!
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Sterling work, goldie61. Very impressive.
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So impressed - thank you Goldie
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Me too, Goldie. Real talent and amazing "magic eye" you have for these!
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Well thank you Bookbox, Thumbelina and MonicaL for your kind words! :-[
Sometimes you can just 'see it'.
I have done quite a lot for my family - some of them ten times worse than this - almost totally incomprehensible!
I enjoy the challenge. :)
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So can someone tell me what the below is?
second day of September Jajvijle and fifty seven years
Is this a year of some kind or what? The Jajvijle completely baffles me!
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Is it perhaps a capital C at the end, rather than le ?
jaj = 1000
vijC = 700
So ... jajvijC and fifty seven = 1757
For further explanation, see here ...
http://www.scottishhandwriting.com/cmDat.asp
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Oh I see, thank you for that Bookbox.
The handwriting is a little difficult to decipher in places. C would certainly make more sense than le.
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Is it coincidence that a similar query has also come up here, to which I've also replied?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=772807.msg6258283
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So it has! So why didn't the poster put the query on here? Surely no need to start a 'new' topic on the same subject.
Perhaps because it was a specific query regarding one record rather than all the ones on this one?
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I posted it as 'new' as it is a generic question, not specific to the one sasine Goldie had been kind enough to transcribe for me.
I fear I have committed a forum faux pas!
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No, not at all. I just thought it was strange that almost the same query came up from two different people on two different threads at almost the same time!
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I only put it on once
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I only put it on once
There's no problem. I just got confused by someone higher up this thread (post #30) posting almost the same query as you had done on your other thread. It doesn't take much to confuse me ;)
No criticism intended.