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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: curiousgeorge1 on Wednesday 31 May 17 10:47 BST (UK)
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I have had help in the past with the Schumacher family.
With help I discovered his death in Liverpool in 1883 at 55 Hopwood St.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=534462.msg6236750#msg6236750
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=593424.msg4438630#msg4438630
I recently found him on a grave stone in Anfield Cemetery. This was a huge find. Prior to this I had no family connections for Henry Shumacker before his wedding to Catherine Johnson in Cork in 1844. I had some possible finds for him prior to 1844 but no proof.
I have plenty of information for this family going forward. I have them in various censuses, apart from the 1881 census when I have lost Henry & Catherine, but plenty for their children. They were in Glasgow in 1877 and he died in Liverpool in 1883. Probate says he was formerly of Hospital St Glasgow but I have no confirmation of that.
What I would like help with is solving the puzzle of the names on the grave stone, working out the relationships and the gold standard: the names of his parents.
Here are the words on the gravestone,
" In loving memory of Daniel Schumacher who died 11 Dec 1900 in his 68th year. Also Henry Schumacher who died 30th Nov 1883 aged 62 years. Also Metta Otten sister of the above who died 21st Sep 1901 aged 74 years. Rest in peace. Also Daniel Schumacher, nephew of the above who died 17th July 1902 aged 45yrs. Also Rebecca Schumacher who died 12 May 1944 aged 85yrs.'
To clarify, I have plenty of information going forward, especially for Henry, the direct line. I have traced Daniel & Rebecca going forward, including their children. I have the information from various censuses. I have probate for Daniel, Henry, Metta, Daniel & Rebecca.
I am stuck on proving the relationships on the gravestone. All were born in Germany.
Henry had a son Daniel but he died unmarried in Glasgow in 1877. Not the Daniel on the gravestone.
I have a Daniel in the 1861 census boarding at Ascot St, Liverpool, and Daniel & Daniel in the 1881 census at 16 Hopwood St, again both lodgers. The older Daniel is 49 and unmarried.
The question, how can I prove how Daniel, Henry and Metta are related, assuming they are, and how can I move forward with looking for their parents in Germany.
Various censuses give Hanover as place of birth. More than that I do not know. The men were sugar boilers. I have used the Bryan Mawer database.
This may seem obvious but this family have been a real conundrum, including not having records for their marriage in St Finn Barrs Cathedral Cork 1st Dec 1844. I do have a newspaper announcement which confirms this marriage ( with the name Sochomorker!)
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
In short:
Daniel Schumacher b ~ 1832 Germany
Henry Schumacher b ~ 1821 Hanover
Meta Otten b~ 1830 Germany
Daniel Schumacher b~ 1857 Germany
Rebecca Wohlberg b 31 Dec 1858 Germany
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http://en.geneanet.org/fonds/individus/?exact_day=&exact_month=&exact_year=&ignore_each_patronyme=&ignore_each_prenom=&size=10&sourcename=&nom=schumacher&ignore_each_patronyme=&prenom=daniel&prenom_operateur=or&ignore_each_prenom=&place__0__=&zonegeo__0__=England%2C+United+Kingdom&country__0__=GBR®ion__0__=ENG&subregion__0__=&place__1__=&zonegeo__1__=&country__1__=®ion__1__=&subregion__1__=&place__2__=&zonegeo__2__=&country__2__=®ion__2__=&subregion__2__=&place__3__=&zonegeo__3__=&country__3__=®ion__3__=&subregion__3__=&place__4__=&zonegeo__4__=&country__4__=®ion__4__=&subregion__4__=&from=&to=&exact_month=&exact_day=&exact_year=&go=1
some of www.geneanet.org is free - unfortunately for you this is a Priviliged Member and has her tree bon the Premium page - meaning you have to pay - do you know a Rebecca Schumacher ?...it is her tree .
good luck :)
one of my Oakes family ancestors ( my surname ) married an Otten - if you come across any Otten / Oakes connection feel free to contact me and I will check my tree
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https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&englishSubcountryName=Lancashire&query=%2Bsurname%3Aschumacher~%20%2Bany_place%3Aliverpool~%20%2Brecord_country%3AEngland%20%2Brecord_subcountry%3A%22England%2CLancashire%22
...
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Thanks for this. Yes I have a Rebecca Schumacher on the gravestone but not able to prove the link with my direct ancestor
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Thanks for this. Yes I have a Rebecca Schumacher on the gravestone but not able to prove the link with my direct ancestor
looks like a wife of Daniel to me ??
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Yes, thanks.
Daniel, husband of Rebecca. On gravestone Daniel, "nephew of the above".
I have the older Daniel, unmarried at 49. I have Henry, direct ancestor, I know all his children including a Daniel who died unmarried in 1877 I.e not this Daniel. Meta Otten is new to me. Her probate is to a daughter Adelaide Ditzfeld who she was staying with onwards the end of her life.
Nephew of the above. Who were his parents? Possibly not older Daniel, lodging with younger Daniel and unmarried at 49.
Not Henry, direct ancestor, children all accounted for.
If Metta Otten then why is she Otten and he Schumacher?
All born in Germany. Trying to connect the three older people to each other and younger Daniel and wife Rebecca to the three older people. Nephew of the above, one of the above or all three?
The search goes on :)
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It sounds as though Meta Otten was a sister of Danie (1832) & Henry (1821). Death registration puts her as born c1827.
1891 census shows a William Ditzfeld with wife Adelaide (born c1862 Ireland)- could this be the same Adelaide? In 1901 census William Ditzfeld is shown as born Germany German Subject and ditto marks have been given to entire household including child who was possibbly born in England.
census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Added- I can see a marriage (1914) for Adele Ditzfeld who might be the daughter Dele in 1901 census.
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Good call on Dele, Adele. I have this family as Adelaide appeared as executor in Metta Otten probate.
Yes assumption of all three older generation being brothers and sisters but is it a fair working assumption that none were parents of the younger Daniel? Otherwise why would he be 'nephew of the above'.
With all being born in Germany and with English death certificates not giving parents names I am a little stuck with finding parents of the older generation and indeed the younger Daniel.
Following up Adelaide born c1862 in Ireland also tricky but I will follow up.
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Have you tried the Anglo German Family History Society in case your ancestor attended a German Protestant church (e.g. the Ev. Lutheran Church)?
German church books record far more than those kept by churches in the UK. With luck the Liverpool Lutheran church will have held the burial service, which should give the full two or three given names and not just the name he used (the first one or two given names being names donated by baptism sponsors/godparents, who themselves could be relatives).
Here's a list of all the existing German Lutheran church books that the anglo german FHS have:-
http://www.agfhs.org/site/documents/Tracing%20Your%20German%20Ancestors_Part%20I.pdf
I was lucky enough to find my grandmother's baptism recorded in the Hull Lutheran church and that's when I discovered that my gt.grandfather's name wasn't the one he used on every census but 3 totally different given names, the record also showed that my grandmother had been named in favour of her grandmother and I'd hit gold when the church also recorded her g/mother's full maiden name and the town where she was born in Hannover.
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Thanks for this suggestion. I will follow this up.
Henry was married in 1844 in Cork at St Finn Barrs Cathedral and his daughter was married in 1872 in the Anglican Church in Glasgow, yes Church of England!
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Aghadowey, interesting re the 1891 & 1901 census and place of birth. Thanks for this.
1911 census has a William & Adelaid Ditchfield living at 65 Lambeth Rd with daughter Adelaid aged 20, all born in Bremen.
1901
'Merta' Otten was living at 65 Lambeth Rd in 1901 with Wilhelm & Adelaid, Adelaid born in Germany
1901 on Metta Otten's death probate was granted to Adelheid Ditzfeld at this same address.
I have an entry for a death of Adelaide Ditzfeld in 1939 in Hawarden. There is a possibility for her in 1939 census as Adelaide Ditchfield b 10 Aug 1862, at 1 Fern Villas Hawarden, not proved.
I believe that Wilhelm Ditzfeld was a widower possibly married to Gerte (Gesche) I have them in the 1881 census at 37 Elston St, Kirkdale.
I will follow up birthplace of Adelaid Otten. My primary interest in in her mother Metta Otten who appears on the original gravestone, the original post, and who I am trying to link to Daniel Schumacher and more importantly Henry Schumacher my direct ancestor.
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Have you found marriage for William Ditzfeld though her mother was Otten in 1901 census that doesn't mean that Adelaid's father was Mr. Otten- mother could have been married more than once.
Not sure what German records would be online but perhaps someone else will be able to help.
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Good point Aghadowey
In 1901 Merta Otten aged 71 born Germany was mother in law to head of household Wilhelm Ditzfeld, age 49 born Germany. His wife Adelaid Ditzfeld age 37 born Germany. Also daughter Dele aged 10 born Germany. Adelaide was granted probate on death of Metta Otten. All at Lambeth Rd.
Have assumed all births and marriages would have been in Germany
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http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14751683
Adelaide "Ditchfield" in 1939 has same birthdate as this woman, Dela Ditzfeld, born "Quelkhern".
I think the location is Quelkhorn, a small place now within the municipality of Ottersberg - this would fit with the family being from the Kingdom of Hanover.
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Adelheid Otten to Claus Heinrich W Ditzfeld, Jun 1889 Liverpool district (Freebmd)
W for Wilhelm/William?
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Thanks for this. Will follow up. Ottersberg rings some bells. Will track through records to trace this.
It is possible that Wilhelm's first wife Gesche/Gertie died in 1888. I have a possible gravestone in Liverpool for her.
I also think that I have found Wilhelm & Adelaide in the 1914-18 internment documents in Saltney. No birth details other than German born.
Thinking out loud now.
Possible birth of Adelaid Otten born 1862 in Ottersberg to Metta (possibly Schumacher) and unknown Otten.
Metta (poss Schumacher) b 1827 and unknown Otten possibly married in Ottersberg.
Am I getting any closer to knowing Metta's parents and thereby proving her relationship with the Daniel & Henry Schumacher, and consequently finding their parents, on the original gravestone, details above.
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One bell that it might ring could be that ...
Johann Diedrich Schumacher of Ottersberg emigrated to US from Liverpool 1860-66
(Sugar Refiners & Sugarbakers Database)
<i>Added...</i> The later of those above dates as Johann Diedrich wid married Anna Bohne 27 April 1865 Liverpool. His father was Hermann.
(FamilySearch)
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Thanks for this. Lots of lines to follow up
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Making slow progress on my brick wall. Followed up on the Quelkhorn clue and found a site with pictures of gravestones. Great resource.
http://grabsteine.genealogy.net/namelist.php?cem=99&lang=en
Found lots of associated names of people I had found in Liverpool, boarding together.
Someone pointed me towards the neighbouring parish of Fischerhude, some familiar names here also. Still no way of connecting them to the original ancestor Henry Shumacker b ~ 1819 Hanover.
Is anyone familiar with this area of Germany? Does anyone know of any other resources for this area?
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I wonder no one has pointed you to the European Forum where surely more help would be forthcoming, i.e. viele posts regarding Germany.
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I thought this thread was on the Europe forum, or do you mean another forum altogether ???
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Ooops sorry!!
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;D
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Focusing on the area Quelkhorn, Ottersberg in Verdun, Germany.
Reading the sugar bakers database for origins in the area I keep seeing references to the Metzner Shipping Lists and Horst Roessler research.
The first I guess is obvious. How can I access both of these resources?
Looking for Henry Schumacher b ~ 1819. Possible date of immigration in early 1840’s to England
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The late Len Metzner was a founder member of the Anglo-German FHS. His indexes, held by AGFHS for members' use, are transcriptions of the records found of German migrants entering England that appear in TNA HO2 & HO3, mostly 1840s & 1850s. The TNA original records are now available on Ancestry, I think.
I have an extract from Len's Lists of the names of those who gave their occupation as sugarbaker, but Henry is not listed ... but then many migrants were simply ag labs who found work in the sugarhouses as labourers. Henry may appear on the full list and therefore in the TNA records.
Horst is a German researcher, lecturer and author who concentrates on those sugar workers who migrated from Lower Saxony. I'll pass your message on.
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Thanks for this
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Henry Schumacher, sugar boiler, spouse Catherine Johnson
I have been looking for two brothers and one sister, born 1819 to ~ 1832. Place of birth given as Germany/ Hanover in various censuses. The only connection I have is that they all appear on the same gravestone in Anfield Cemetery, Liverpool and that Daniel is listed as Henry’s brother on the death certificate in 1883 in Liverpool (Henry Schumacher).
I now have three possible births from a tree on Ancestry. The place name is a new one for me and there is little additional information.
Can anyone add to this information or point me in the right direction? To reiterate, I have them on various censuses in the UK. It is the connection in Germany that is eluding me.
Johann Georg Heinrich Christian Schumacher 8 Nov 1819, christened 10 Nov 1819 at Sankt Agidien, Hannover (Family Search)
Hannover, Niedersachsen (Lower Saxony) Germany
Metta Schumacher Otten 1830-1901
Daniel Schumacher 1832-1900
Possible parents Schumacher, Friedericke Iden
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Sankt Agidien, Hanover
I have learned that Friedericke Iden may have been an unmarried mother originally from Linden, Hanover.
I have not yet found documentation to verify these links. I tend to get lost very quickly on the Achion site.
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Henry Schumacher, sugar boiler, spouse Catherine Johnson
I have been looking for two brothers and one sister, born 1819 to ~ 1832. Place of birth given as Germany/ Hanover in various censuses. The only connection I have is that they all appear on the same gravestone in Anfield Cemetery, Liverpool and that Daniel is listed as Henry’s brother on the death certificate in 1883 in Liverpool (Henry Schumacher).
I now have three possible births from a tree on Ancestry. The place name is a new one for me and there is little additional information.
Can anyone add to this information or point me in the right direction? To reiterate, I have them on various censuses in the UK. It is the connection in Germany that is eluding me.
Johann Georg Heinrich Christian Schumacher 8 Nov 1819, christened 10 Nov 1819 at Sankt Agidien, Hannover (Family Search)
Hannover, Niedersachsen (Lower Saxony) Germany
Metta Schumacher Otten 1830-1901
Daniel Schumacher 1832-1900
Possible parents Schumacher, Friedericke Iden
My gt.grandfather was born in the Kingdom of Hanover too. The usual given name is the one next to the surname and the three previous given names were usually donated by the three male sponsors/witnesses/godfathers - all sponsors chosen either because the person could give the child a job later on in life or was a relative - for instance, my gt.grandfather had three names "Franz Jacob Henning Flamme" his own was "Henning" = "little Henry" he was named in favour of his father Heinrich/Henry..... and his first sponsor was his grandfather Franz Flemme, the name "Jacob" was donated by a local shopkeeper.
and by looking at the names of my gt.grandfather's children born in the UK they gave the clue to his parents names "William Henry" and "Edith Sophia". Thus, if you know the names of Henry's children, the first son will be the name of his father and the second daughter will be the name of his mother.
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Thanks for this. Very similar to Scottish naming tradition although the given name would usually be first.
Henry’s first son 1846 was indeed Henry but his second son was Noble after I believe his maternal grandfather.
Something to investigate.
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I’m beginning to think that Johann Georg Heinrich Christian Schumacher is a red herring and that the Ancestry tree is wrong 😱 What a surprise.
Will continue to look for Henry (1819), Metta (1827) and Daniel (1832) Schumacher born to the same parents in Hannover.
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Just back from holiday and spotted this thread again, so I've been mooching around on FamilySearch ... take a look at the village of Lamstedt, Hannover for the name Schumacher (+ variants) and perhaps think in terms of cousins as well as siblings.
There's a Daniel 1831, Metta 1824 and lots more.
As they say on your other thread ... don't give up, we'll get there in the end. I want to know Henry's origins as well !
[ Have you joined AGFHS and had a search done of their huge database ?]
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Thanks sugarbakers. I will follow this up.
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Hi. This is my family you're talking about. I was looking for a Herald article about my great great grandfather Captain Henry Shumacker and stumbled across your posts. Do you have a connection to them/me? I'm new to this site so it's a bit confusing trying to see everywhere they're mentioned, but it would be great to talk about what you've found out, and vice versa. My sister has done some work on gathering info for our Granny, who is almost 99. Captain Henry Jnr was her grandfather!
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Great news 😁
Happy to share information
I’ve sent you a direct message. Let me know if you have problems accessing this.
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Thanks for your PM! Apparently I have to make 3 posts on here before I can reply. So I will make another post after this one and hopefully that unlocks the function.
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Very excited to find out more about you and your links to my family.
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Frustrated, I wonder if anyone can help. I’ve made a lot of progress with this family.
I have made a rookie error. I have recorded some information and now I can’t find the source. I was given this information but not the original image.
Details: Wilstedt parish register
Daniel Schumacher
Born 4 November 1832
I was told that the parents were Daniel Schumacher and Adelheid nee Schachmann.
I have looked on Ancestry at the Elbe Weser Triangle and have other children images but not Daniel. On subsequent censuses place of birth given as Hanover.
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Hi
had a look around, found no records for Daniel Schumacher born 1832.
What i did find is records for:
Marriage, for Daniel Schumacher and Ahlcke Schachmann in 1818, Wilstedt
- Daniel Schumacher was the son of Daniel Schumacher and Gesche Meyers
- Ahlcke Schachmann was the daughter Friderick Schachmann and Margaretha Holsten
Children of Daniel Schumacher and Ahlcke Schachmann.
Hinrich born 2.2.1819
Mette born 10.11.1826
Ann Trine born 10.11.1826
Adelheid born 4.3.1829
Death record for Ahlcke Schumacher nee Schachmann - 9.5.1849 aged 51
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Many thanks for this. As you can see I have had many goes at connecting this family and joining the dots.
I’ll have to persevere with Daniel. Thanks again
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The only Daniel Schumacher i can find was born in Ottersberg on the 24 Okt 1832
son of Claus Hinrich Schumacher and Gesche Margretha Müller
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Thanks for confirming that I’m not missing something.
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Update: By searching the actual parish records available on a subscription site I was able to find the entry. Worth remembering that not everything gets transcribed for one reason or another