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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => East Lothian (Haddingtonshire) => Topic started by: rprest on Saturday 03 June 17 07:19 BST (UK)
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Hi There - I wonder if anybody can help! I'm struggling to identify the burial location of my GG Grandfather, David Bryce Tod.
He died in Aberlady on 14 March 1919. While some of his relatives are buried in Aberlady Church there is no sign of David. I thought he might also be buried in Haddington but I can't see him listed in the burial plots at St Marys. I did wonder if he was buried at St John's in Haddington (his father David Bryce was the architect, and designed this church), but from what I can see (on google) there are no burial plots.
I know place of death doesn't necessary mean that they would also be buried there, but I'm drawing a bit of a blank! Some family members appear to have been buried in the fathers plot in Edinburgh, but not David Bryce-Tod.
Any help, pointers, suggested resources to check out would be gratefully appreciated!!
Best, Richard
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Hi Richard,
You may already have tried this.
Burial records for East Lothian can be searched for you at a cost - says approximately £20 for half an hour.
www.eastlothian.gov/burial records
Dorrie
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His death notice is in the Scotsman ( 17th March 1919) but it just says the funeral is to take place in Aberlady on Tuesday 18th March.
Isobel
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Many thanks. If his funeral took place in Aberlady you would expect him to be buried in the area. Quite mysterious why his grave doesn't appear to be there!
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Hi,s
Was he married ? If so do you know where is wife was buried -- could it be there is is no headstone on his grave.
suzilad
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Hi rprest,
you say that David has family buried in Aberlady Church (yard) "but there is no sign of David". Have you actually been to the churchyard and looked for his gravestone, or that of other relatives? I live fairly near and would be happy to go and take a look. I like wandering around graveyards! Let me know if this would be of any use. A
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Hi Anne - Good to hear from you. I've never visited the graveyard myself, I've been going by information provided to me by another relation who also hasn't visited the graveyard, a friend or relation to them has and couldn't find anything. Considering the information is third hand there would be no harm in having a look around the site. I live in Cornwall so just not practical but if were happy to do so I would be delighted if you wouldn't mind having a look?
Of course there is no rush at all, whenever you are passing or close by. I would be most grateful indeed. Ideally I would be looking for the graves of David Bryce-Tod or his wife Ann Guy Bryce-Tod. She died approx 2 years later (around 1920) also in Aberlady.
Thank you very much! Richard
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I should be able to get along there in the next couple of days. It's not the biggest graveyard to search so I'll choose a warm(ish) dry day and go looking. I'll go prepared to take photos and see what I find. Hope for a positive result! A
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Thank you, I really do appreciate it! Fingers crossed!!
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Not every burial has a gravestone. There can be lots of reasons for this. Your best would be as suggested already, to contact the local council and ask them to do a search in their burial registers. That should pinpoint if this person was buried there, gravestone or not, and may identify the location.
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I did phone the local council office on Thursday just to check that these people were buried in Aberlady Church Yard. It turns out that the council only holds records of burials there from 1925 to now. I was advised to contact the church office as they have the burial records up to 1925. The office is only open on Tuesdays and Thursdays, so I'll phone on Tuesday and hope to have some news, or at least an update, then. A
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Hi,
In the Scotsman 17 May 1928, there is an obituary for Annie Guy, widow of David Bryce Tod, in her 88th year, Funeral was on Saturday, Aberlady, 2pm. Her address at that time was 182, Easter Road, Edinburgh.
Hope this helps.
Tom Buchanan
PS Saturday would have been 19 May 1928.
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Hi again,
I also found a death notice in Scotsman 14 Jul 1934 for James Tod died 12 July 1934, son of the late David Bryce Tod. Funeral was to leave 13 Blantyre Terrace, Edinburgh to Aberlady. Friends wishing to attend were invited to meet cortege at Aberlady churchyard on Sunday at 3:00pm.
Tom Buchanan
PS Sunday would have been 15 July 1934
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Hi,
Not sure if you are aware, but there is 2 entries on Wills and testament page of Scotland Peoples website, could download will at least, for 10 credits, £2.33 approx.
Tod
David Bryce
30/4/1919
The Temperance Hotel, Aberlady, d. 14/03/1919 at Aberlady, testate.
Haddington Sheriff Court
SC40/40/39
. (10 credits)
Tod
David Bryce
30/4/1919
The Temperance Hotel, Aberlady, d. 14/03/1919 at Aberlady, testate.
Haddington Sheriff Court Wills
SC40/43/10
Tom Buchanan
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Thank you both Tom and Anne for all your help!!
I will certainly access those records on the Scotland's People website. It does seem as though both were laid to rest in Aberlady, but perhaps don't have grave markers. Of course the Will of David may well provide some clues towards why that might be the case
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Well, today was the day for my trip to Aberlady Church Yard. Sorry it couldn't have been sooner - 'life' and some bad weather got in the way!
I went along expecting that the Church Office would be near the church and that I could go in, be given the lair information I was looking for, and then go and find and photograph the headstone and grave of David Bryce Tod. WRONG! I couldn't find the office so I phoned it, only to be told that they don't have that information, and they 'refer people to the Council'! So round in circles! I have a phone number for someone who might know where this information can be had so I'll contact him as soon as I can, and report back, of course.
It's a beautiful old churchyard so I did look around the older sections, just in case! Having read the recent information on this thread I thought the gravestone I'd be looking for might be substantial and imposing but I didn't find it, of course. But I will persevere!
Anne
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Thank you Anne, I really do appreciate you taking the time and effort to do this!! Thank you so much for all you've done.
I've downloaded David's will from Scotland's People and if i'm reading it correctly it would seem he had quite a few debts when he died and didn't leave a great deal of money to his wife. So it may be that there wasn't any money available for a gravestone?
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Hi Richard, I've tried to send you a PM (private message) about a little more info I have but not sure it actually did send! Either way, if you pm me I'll give you the latest. Thanks. Anne
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Hi Anne
When you send a pm, make sure you tick the box "Save a copy in my outbox" under the text box.
Hope this helps.
Dawn
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Thanks, Dawn.
I will do that next time. At least, I'll try! It was actually a reply on another thread that I "lost", so I just typed out the information again and did manage to send it.
Thanks again.
Anne
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Hi Richard,
I've done this one before, years ago I mean, but it was to find this person, ''David Bryce Tod'' & his Father, but mostly his Father. I have info: on my computer reference his son ''David'', the one your researching, so I'll give you what I have on him. I do hope it helps some.
In 1911, David resided with his wife, two sons and a boarder in the High Street, Aberlady. His son James was a Civil Engineer, the other son Robert a Draper and the boarder John a Political Secretary. David was a Hotel Proprietor, and aged 72, his wife Annie Guy aged 66.
If I remember correctly David died in Aberlady aged 80 and his wife died in Canongate, Edinburgh, aged 87.
I'm sure both were interred in Canongate Churchyard in Edinburgh together because when searching after another person, David Rizzo, who died 1566 Secretary to Mary Stuart's, I did see Memorial Stones for families named Tod, some quite difficult to read due to weather damage. This Churchyard is considerably old and many of the Memorial Stones are black from soot, due to the black smokey chimney's of long ago.
Hope this helps Richard......................................................Ron.
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Hi,
I have looked at Canongate Churchyard on "Find A Grave" website, page 74, has 5 Tods, unfortunately not the ones we were looking for. There isa photo of the headstone, which proves that David Bryce Tod or wife Annie, was not in this grave.
https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/search?cemetery-name=Canongate+Churchyard&cemetery-loc=&only-with-cemeteries=cemOnly&locationId=
Click on the 1579 memorials and then take a long scroll down to "Tod"
Tom Buchanan
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Hi,
I then checked Aberlady churchyard, and 82% of gravestones had been photographed, but none were of the "Tod's".
https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/search?cemetery-name=Aberlady+Cemetery&cemetery-loc=&only-with-cemeteries=cemOnly&locationId=
Tom Buchanan
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Hi Tom,
I presume you are relying on documentary searches ref: Tod's; I'm speaking of a physical search of Canongate Churchyard, which I carried out when looking for David Rizzio and saw burials for, Catherine Tod, Catherine Banks Tod, Henry Tod, Janet Tod and Margaret Tod. They were four layer burials in each making i.e. Family Chambers. Possibly David Bryce Tod and his wife Annie Guy could be interred within these Family Layers. A physical search would solve all for sure.
Adam Smith the Great Kirkcaldy author is interred there but in some documentary burial layers his name is absent.
Anyhow, I won't leave it there but will have a search for David myself as I still do have some info: on his Father...the Architect...............................Ron.
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Hi Ron,
On the Find A Grave website, it gave a photograph of headstone in Canongate churchyard, which gave all the names, you gave in your reply. If you send me a PM with your email address, I will send a copy of it to you.
On a previous reply to this topic, the widow of David Bryce Tod had an intimation in the Scotsman that shows her to be interred in Aberlady, as was James Tod, their son. I don't think the widow would be buried in different churchyard. I could be wrong, have been wrong before.
Tom Buchanan
PS
Annie Guy died at 182 Easter Road, Edinburgh on 16thMay 1928 and interred at Aberlady on the Saturday at 2:00pm. (Scotsman 17 May 1928)
James Tod, their son, had cortege leave from 13 Blantyre Terrace, Edinburgh to Aberlady Churchyard, meet cortege at Aberlady on Sunday at 3:00pm. (Scotsman 14 Jul 1934)
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Hi Tom,
Thank you for the details regarding David and his wife. I've spent an hour contacting a friend who helps in awkward 'finds' and helped with the David Tod, 'Architect' search a few years back and he assures me that David Bryce Tod is interred in a Bryce Family Plot in 'New Calton Cemetery', Edinburgh. Seemingly Architects were in the Bryce Family too and of course this was his Mother's family.
If you'd like to check Tom, if you can that is, let me know how you fair..........
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Hi Ron,
David Bryce the architect was the natural father of David Bryce Tod, whose mother was Janet Tod. David Bryce died 7th May 1876, he was single and death was registered by his nephew, John Bryce of 3 Frederick St., Edinburgh. His parents were both deceased, William Bryce, Architect and his wife Agnes TOD. So I will need to try and get the connection of Agnes Tod and Janet Tod who was his partner, in the birth of David Bryce Tod. This connection could be the reason for him not marrying her.
Tom Buchanan
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Hi Tom,
I'm wondering if I'm on another 'page' as according to the original requested search for David Bryce Tod; ''struggling to identify the burial location of my G. G. Grandfather, David Bryce Tod''. ''Died in Aberlady on 14th March 1919''.
I'm looking at the exact death details I have, Father: David Tod, Architect, Mother: Ann Bryce Tod, but her Christian name was amended to read Jean. The son was James who acted as Informant to the death.
David was baptised David Bryce Tod, as we know, ''Tod'' being his Fathers name and ''Bryce from his Mother. Namely, David Bryce Tod...the one we're tryiing to trace.
That's the information I have here Tom, downloaded from Scotlands People. What do you think.!
Ron.
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Hi Ron,
Different facts from me. I have David Bryce Tod, was natural son of David Bryce and Janet Tod. On architect David Bryce's DC his parents were William Bryce, architect deceased and Agnes Tod, I am thinking maybe a relative of Janet Tod. I have found an 1851 census that has siblings, Janet, Agnes, Jean and John, staying at 30 Morrison Street, Edinburgh, but not proved them yet.
I have downloaded the death certificate of David Bryce Tod, there is an "error in col 5" as written in the margin. I think they have got their Tod's and Bryce's mixed up but cannot prove it yet. David Tod was not the architect, I have David Bryce's DC and he was an architect with Royal Scottish Academy.
So I am getting confused with the 2 death certificates.
Going to have a cup of tea, and think how to resolve this.
Tom Buchanan
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Hi Ron,
Just found this on Geni website,
https://www.geni.com/people/David-Bryce-R-S-A-F-R-I-B-A/6000000000797094096
David Bryce, R.S.A., F.R.I.B.A.
Birthdate: April 3, 1803 (73)
Birthplace: Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh, Scotland
Death: May 7, 1876 (73)
Place of Burial: New Calton Cemetery
Immediate Family:
Son of William Bryce and Agnes Todd
Partner of Janet Tod
Father of David Bryce Tod
Brother of William Bryce, Jr.; John Bryce and Ann Bryce
Sort of confirms you theory about buried at New Calton cemetery. I also notice the different spellings of Tod and Todd. I was thinking of him, having a liaison with his Aunt. A man is forbidden to marry his mother's sister(Aunt) See link below.
http://www.genetic-genealogy.co.uk/Toc115570145.html
Tom
PS https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/155374771/david-bryce
read all the info on this link.
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Hi Tom,
Thanks for the info: food for thought for sure. .............Ron
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Hi Tom,
Ref: your second from last thread stating the Death Certificate of David Bryce Tod, ''with the error in the 5th column IS the person in question and is the one I have. He was a Coach-builder to trade and his Father was the Architect named David Tod. who was married to Jean Bryce.
Seemingly Tom, you've got the surnames mixed, but your precise with a search for sure.....Ron.
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Hi Ron,
David Bryce Tod's natural father was David Bryce, the Architect. I am not sure if David Bryce Tod's son James knew about his fathers real parents or not, but he gave the registrar the wrong name of David Tod. He even gets his grandmothers name wrong, she was Janet Tod.
I am of the opinion that David Bryce, the Architect, had an affair with his aunt, Janet Tod, and it was illegal for them to marry. As of any scandal those days, it would not have been talked about, and this would be possible reason that James Tod registered the wrong parents names.
Tom
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Hi Tom,
Great searching with the amount of good data you have there, I'm sure there's coverage for a hard-back book!!.. All interesting Tom, good luck.............................Ron.
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Hi, All of you - this is my first post with RootsChat - and it is amazing to read about my ancestors being talked about. The person who started this post is my relative - but one generation on - When you read this R - I'm sending you my love and will email you. David Bryce, architect had an affair, we think, with his cousin, Jane or Janet Tod, the daughter of a Henry Tod, (who I think was a merchant, and the brother of David's mother Agnes Tod), that is, Jane Tod was David's cousin. Why they didn't marry is a mystery. Jane Tod had David Bryce Tod, their son, when she was about 39. She was from a well-to-do family, so we don't know why she never married beforehand, and more importantly, why she didn't marry the father of her son, David Bryce, who was a responsible man and who had supported his brothers' children.
The family story is that the Scottish law that accepted co-habitation as marriage was superseded in Scotland by the English law that stated there had to be a registration ceremony, or something! apparently Jane Tod said that by registering her cohabitation marriage she would have been saying that she was not married legally beforehand, so they didn't 'register' as the new law demanded.
A Jean Bryce with Jane Tods date of birth lived with David Bryce in his old age - we believe that this is Jane Tod, since there is no other 'Jean Bryce' to be found, and David Bryce, who must have filled in the censuses, often used pet names rather than the full names of family members.
There is a little square marker for David and Annie Bryce Tod in Aberlady churchyard - R - I will try to get someone to photo this for you. My brother David Kenneth Bryce Stafford, a descendant, is buried there, as are one of David Bryce Tod's daughters Jean Bryce Tod, and her daughter Davina (named for David Bryce the architect).
But David Stafford was told that there was no record of the bodies of David and Annie actually being interred. Thank you so much for all the amazing new information that I have found on this site about this family. The thing is now, I think, to look for the burial of James Tod, and that may well lead to where his parents are buried.
Please keep in touch, everyone, and thank you all for your information.
I live in the Wirral, but there are relatives still in Edinburgh
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"There is a photo of the headstone, which proves that David Bryce Tod or wife Annie, was not in this grave."
This is a doubtful claim. There must be millions of cases where a person has been buried in the grave of a previously deceased spouse or parent, and nobody ever got around to adding their name to the existing tombstone. Or, they put their name on a small supplementary tombstone, which is no longer present.
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Sorry, I should be saying 'Janet Tod' rather than 'Jane Tod' - as you all have rightly said.
As for the one and two 'd's - 'Tod' and 'Todd'.
I seem to remember that the one 'd' was always insisted on, and that the family wanted it to be established, (for some odd reason!) -- that their surname was 'Tod' with one 'd'.
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They seem to be just using an antique spelling of Todd, a not unusual occurrence in Scottish surnames. Marriage is not a sacrament in the Church of Scotland & generally took place at home or the manse & not the kirk. The Kirk Session's main interest was insuring that fatherless bairns did not become a burden on the parish.
The interesting Scots prohibition on marriage to a great-grannie must be aimed less at interbreeding as preventing some unscrupulous mountebank from getting his hands on her siller! ;D
Skoosh.
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Hi Happiness4,
Welcome to RootsChat, hope you enjoy the searches. I had a few days off, enjoying the great weather.
How sure are you that Agnes and Janet Tod were cousins and not sisters? I meant to spend some time on that, and it slipped my mind.
Tom Buchanan
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Hi, Tom Buchanan.
Thank you for talking to me - and glad to hear that you've had days off.
I'm pretty sure that Agnes Tod is the aunt of Janet Tod for this reason.
Firstly it relates to the Blyths, Banks and Tods - and the gravestones in, I think in the Cannongate or/and Carlton Hill cemetery.
It shows a Henry Tod married to Catherine Banks. Then I have worked out by the censuses that their children married more than one Blyth. People with these surnames turn up as gardeners, or living with Janet Tod or at one of the Bryce family addresses in Bath Street, leith, which, as far as I can see, is no more.
Janet Tod moves around these addresses every 10 years. She was at one time living with who I presume is her brother, a John Tod, and writer of the signet (solicitor) and his wife Elizabeth. At the time (census) that David Bryce's mother Agnes (Tod) was living with him, it was then that the baby David Bryce Tod, was born. I expect David Bryce must have made the aquaintance of Janet Tod when she visited her aunt Agnes at his house
I'm sure that David Bryce Tod is Janet Tod's son since in the censuses, whereever she moves, he, as a boy, can be found living with a lady called Ann Alexander very near to her.
The only thing that I have not proof of is that Agnes Tod is indeed the sister of Henry Tod, Janet's father. That is too far back, before the censuses.
Best Wishes. Barbara
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Thank you for that information, Skoosh.
The question of 'siller' actually adds to the mystery, since David Bryce was a wealthy person, so most probably wouldn't have been after her silver.
Even though they were cousins, there was/is no law against the marriage of cousins.
I wonder, sadly, if David Bryce Tod was the result of a one night liaison, and that Janet Tod or David Bryce didn't really want to get married because of this. Then I think that the relationship must have developed as they grew older, hence, for their last census they were living together.
For some reason neither of them got married either to each other or to anyone else.
I can't understand why.
Best Wishes, Skoosh
I'm off to do grannie-work in London
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Happiness, David certainly couldn't have managed without a housekeeper/servant, a sister or cousin was ideal. ;D
Bests,
Skoosh.