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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Relsearcher on Monday 05 June 17 17:27 BST (UK)
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Hi! Can anyone help? I seem to have come to a bit of an end point with my research into a distant relative called Olive Jone Winifred Constantina Edney.
She was born in 1873 in Sydenham, Kent to parents John and Olive Edney (nee Bowkett). I have found her birth, and her presence in the 1881 and 1891 Census returns where she was listed living on the Sydenham Road. After that the trail goes rather chilly.
Her father John died in 1893 and her mother Olive died in 1900 (listed as 1901). Their headstone is in Ladywell Cemetery long with two sons (John Sidney Mendelsohn Edney 1873-1875, and John Sidney Bowkett Edney 1876-1920) and a daughter (Gladys Ermyntrude Christelle Gracia Edney 1885-1940).
I have searched high and low and have managed to track her other siblings (Kenelem Oscar Alfonso Edney - know as Kenneth later in life, Evangeline Marguerite Irene Claribel Clifford (nee Edney) and Roy Leslie Mendelsohn Edney) to New Zealand and UK, but Olive Jone Winifred Constantina Edney just seems to have a minimal trail which stops with the 1891 Census.
I have looked at marriage records but nothing obvious pops up, I have searched Census returns under all sorts of permeations, I have searched death records, passenger lists, probate records etc - unless the info is staring me in the face but I am blind to it as I have been searching for hours!
Any ideas, pointers or input would be massively appreciated! Maybe I have missed something really obvious!?
Many thanks, Nina
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Just to get her full name on the thread:
Birth reg, Sep qtr 1873, Lewisham: Olive Jone Winifred Constantia EDNEY, mmn BOWKETT
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Ooops, sorry, thanks - info amended!
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I wonder if she's listed in her mother's will?
Maureen
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She isn't listed on the small probate preview, but she may well be in the main Will document. I haven't bought it as I have spent so much over the years doing family research I am trying to be frugal!
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Possible sighting in 1896?
London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965
Olive Edney
Year: 1896
County or Borough: Lewisham
Ward or Division/Constituency: Lewisham
Address: 1 Longton Grove Terrace
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Hi - that is her mother I'm afraid - I have checked it against the probate etc and those electoral registers stop with the mother's death in 1900.
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Hi - that is her mother I'm afraid - I have checked it against the probate etc and those electoral registers stop with the mother's death in 1900.
Bother! ;D
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I know! So annoying ...
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Is everyone a bit stumped by this as well as me? Does the trail really seem to lose its way with Olive?
Nina
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What about this?
in 1899 Alick George Hyde married Nellie Wood - Marylebone district.
On the 1901 census Alick G Hyde is with Olive Hyde who was born 1874, Sydenham. Can find no marriage for Alick and Olive. Olive Edney was born in Sydenham? Olive Hyde died in 1963 Hackney district.
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As there is nothing appearing online, I think you are going to have to get her mother's will, as that should give you a clue to whether she is still alive and if she married.
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What about this?
in 1899 Alick George Hyde married Nellie Wood - Marylebone district.
On the 1901 census Alick G Hyde is with Olive Hyde who was born 1874, Sydenham. Can find no marriage for Alick and Olive. Olive Edney was born in Sydenham? Olive Hyde died in 1963 Hackney district.
I was thinking the same, Alick does look to marry Marylebone 1899 but not to Olive so perhaps the marriage did not work out and they lived together as though they were married. Also this Olive is quite precise on 1911 census and gives her place of birth as Sydenham Road which is where the Edneys are living in 1881
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If that is her she should be able to be found in the 1939 register which would show her date of birth.
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Wow! Thank you Redtonyt and Meelystar ... Very interesting ... I shall look into that info more closely tomorrow! I think you are right Groom ... the full Will may be very revealing so I think I may have to purchase that ... And I will also look into the 1939 Reg tomorrow as you suggest ...
Nina
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She isn't with Alick then!
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Was there an obituary notice for the death of her mother Olive Edney she died December 1900?
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"Olive Edney" shows up on electoral rolls up to and including 1901 at 1 (same cottages) as Kenelm + John S + Marguerite + Gladys.
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"Olive Edney" shows up on electoral rolls up to and including 1901 at 1 (same cottages) as Kenelm + John S + Marguerite + Gladys.
I think that may the one I found earlier and Relsearcher said it was her mother.
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So, I have found Olive Hyde in the 1939 Reg and her DOB is 28 June 1873. My Olive Edney was born Q3 1873 so that could be interesting. I also found that Alick was living elsewhere in the 1939 Reg as Groom said. And I found that according to the probate listing, Alick was also known as Alexis and Alic, and was in fact christened Alexis not Alick. There are 2 public trees on Ancestry which include Alick. One calls his wife Olive (Nellie) Wood and the other Olive Hyde. Can't find an Olive Wood who may fit my Olive. There was a Nellie Wood born in 1874 who was living in the Lewisham area in the 1881 census but appears to have been born in Blackheath. Not sure what to think now! Perhaps the best way forward is to buy Olive JWC Edney's birth cert?
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Their headstone is in Ladywell Cemetery long with two sons (John Sidney Mendelsohn Edney 1873-1875, and John Sidney Bowkett Edney 1876-1920) and a daughter (Gladys Ermyntrude Christelle Gracia Edney 1885-1940).
Although the headstone mentions John Sidney Mendelsohn Edney, he is not in the same plot as the others.
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Oh? Do you know where he is?
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he's in the same cemetery just another plot
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plot C 545 3rd class unconsecrated has
John Edney bd 1893
Olive Edney bd 1901
Geo (sic) Sydney bd 1920
Gladys Ermytrude (sic) 1941
John S M Edney bd 1876 is in plot 327 (3rd class)
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Thanks for that ... Does he appear to be in a common/public grave or might he be with other family members?
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Probate index entry:
Alexis George Hyde otherwise Alick George otherwise Alec George, of Plenty House Whitchurch Canonicorium Bridport Dorset died 17 MAy 1949. Administration 30 March 1950 to Olive Hyde widow and Albert Hyde retired dresser.
Shame it is "Administration" rather then Probate, so therefore no Will.
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Thanks for that ... Does he appear to be in a common/public grave or might he be with other family members?
He's buried with Mary Ann Crossland aged 7 months and Edward Bell aged 63 years
Not sure about the status, as the entry for Mary Ann Crossland says 3rd Class but Edward Bell is 1st class. There might be an error or there are 2 plots with the same number but in different parts of the cemetery.
If I get chance tomorrow I'll give the cemetery office a ring and see if they can clarify.
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Thanks for that dawnsh - neither of those other 2 names seem to be related ... Would a public grave only contain just 3 people?
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they don't normally, there might be a good reason.
I'll try and phone the cemetery tomorrow.
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Thanks dawnsh ... I was rather hoping when you said originally that JSME was in another plot with 2 others that perhaps the elusive Olive might be one of the others, with her name misspelled or similar problem!!!! Anyway, no such joy, but perhaps the cemetery might be able to shed some light on those other two - if you get a chance to call them - pls don't worry if not. Nina
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Hi lizdb - thanks for your observation re the probate listing. If it was in Administration, does it literally mean thre never was a Will, or that there was a problem/objection with dishing out the estate and that it will go to Probate at a later date? Pls excuse my ignorance ...
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No, it just means there wasn't a Will.
If there IS a will, then the Will will name executors to carry the wishes contained within the Will. When the person dies, then those executors apply for Probate, which when granted gives them the power to access the deceased's estate and distribute it according to the Will.
If there isn't a Will, then someone has to apply for Letters of Administration to enable them to access the deceaseds estate and distribute to the next of kin. Often when there isn't a Will this isn't always needed, if the deceased only had cash or small amounts the Bank may release it without, but usually Building Societies and other places would require Letters of Administration.
That is a fairly simplistic overview.
If there is a Will but the named executors have died or do not wish to act, the someone else may apply for Administration - that would be entered in the index as Administration With Will. I am sure there are other more complicated scenarios too.
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Thanks for explaining that - very helpful! Nina
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Alick served in WWI and received a victory medal. Can;t find his service records though. He was a gunner in the Royal Garrison Artillery SR/7138, 282138 (had served previously as well, signing up in 1890)
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The Olive Hyde who dies in Hackney in 1963 was living in a home and was a widow. Probate to her bank, so no clues there
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Probate index entry:
Alexis George Hyde otherwise Alick George otherwise Alec George, of Plenty House Whitchurch Canonicorium Bridport Dorset died 17 MAy 1949. Administration 30 March 1950 to Olive Hyde widow and Albert Hyde retired dresser.
Shame it is "Administration" rather then Probate, so therefore no Will.
Interesting that Olive applied for probate as they don't appear to be living together in 1939.
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1939 just means they weren't in the same place on enumeration day - not necessarily they weren't together
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I've put a photo of the grave here (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=180364419) from pictures I took some time ago. I've never come across the Bell grave No 327 and it's not listed in the NWKFHS MIs for Brockley & Ladywell, so perhaps it's unmarked, though that list is by no means complete. They only cut down the vegetation at B&L once a year, and by now it'll be shoulder high, so I don't intend to make a special visit to look any time soon.
As to why baby John and Mary Crossland were buried with an apparent stranger, I've read of a touching custom of burying children with an adult so as to be "looked after" and not left all alone, but I don't know when this ceased. I have certainly found duplicated plot numbers at Brockley & Ladywell (not just associated with its being a merger of 3 cemeteries), so that remains another possible explanation, but as the 3 burials in 327 are round the same date, I tend to discount it in this case.
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Thanks for that Chris ... Good clear shots of the grave! Also, that's very interesting re the custom you read about children being buried with an adult so they are 'looked after' ... I will look into that further. Do you know which month of the year the council clears the vegetation? I rarely get to London these days but if I want to tie a visit to the cemetery in to a future trip, it would be handy to actually be able to see the graves! Many thanks, Nina
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Hi Nina,
Very excited to tell you that the Olive Jone Winifred Constantina Edney is my Great Aunt. My grandfather is Kenelm Oscar Alphonso Edney. My father is Eric Edney.
I was born in New Zealand where I am still living.
I have information on Olive J. that I can share with you. Although I have only been able to go so far. I can't find any information on my Grandfather Kenelm. I have searched high and low for a death certificate and have had no luck so far.
Hope to hear from you soon.
Cheers Kathy (Kathleen ) Edney
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In case you don’t have it already Kenelm Edney, an engineer born 1878, sailed for New Zealand on the 30th May 1906, with his wife on board the Corinthic. They were heading for Auckland.
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I have information on Olive J. that I can share with you. Although I have only been able to go so far.
I can't find any information on my Grandfather Kenelm. I have searched high and low for a death certificate and have had no luck so far.
Hello and a warm welcome to Rootschat Kiwi Kathy :)
Not that this helps finding Kenelm's death/burial record ???
His birth record from GRO indexes which gives his mmn
EDNEY, KENELEM OSCAR ALPHONSE mmn BOWKETT
GRO Reference: 1877 D Quarter in LEWISHAM UNION Volume 01D Page 1064
Marriage of parents
22 Jun 1871 Oxenhall, Gloucestershire
John Edney, ironmonger, father Thomas, smith
Olive Bowkett father Sidney Canal Agent
Witnesses Sidney & Kate Bowkett
He can be found with his parents John & Olive and siblings on
1881 address 2 Cousins Cottages Sydenham Rd Piece: 736 Folio: 54 Page Number: 19
1891 address Sydenham Road Piece: 523 Folio: 80
Kenelm is with his parents and four siblings
Olive Edney of 1 Longton Grove Terrace Taylor’s Lane Sydenham Kent widow died 29 Dec 1900
Probate 22 Feb 1901 to John Sidney Bowkett Edney blacksmith and Kenelm Oscar Alphonse Edney Cycle manufacturer
1901 address 1 Longton Grove Ter. Piece: 558 Folio: 6 Page number: 3
Kenelm living with his siblings occ cycle maker born Sydenham Kent
Headstone of his parents John & Olive Edney & his siblings
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/180364419/john-edney
Was Kenelm known as Kenneth in NZ?
Residence Place: New Zealand
District: Wanganui Region or Province: Manawatu-Wanganui
1911 Kenneth Oscar Alfonso & Minnie Edney address 49 Plymouth Street, Cycle Engineer
1914 Kenneth & Minnie Edney’s address 89 Keith Street
1922 Kenneth & Minnie Edney’s address 23 Churton St.,
1925 Kenneth & Minnie Edney’s address 42 Plymouth St
1928 Kenneth & Minnie Edney address 10 Bell Street
NO Kenneth/Kenelm with his wife for these years
1931 Minnie Edney (married) address 58 Keith Street
1935 Minnie Edney (married)address 67 Keith Street
also J K Edney, labourer
1938 Minnie (Married) same address above
also E C Edney, labourer
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Ladyhawke. Thank you so much for this information much of which I don't have. Can now add to my ancestry tree and fill in some blanks.
No further information on Kenelm. I will just keep digging and hope for the best.
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Hello Kathy! Nina here! Sorry for delay in getting back to you, I was away. I will send you a PM outlining my relationship to Olive, and would love to hear what you can tell me! Nina