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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: Liviani on Tuesday 06 June 17 16:40 BST (UK)
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My 5x great-grandmother is a Mary Cloudsley, born Farnell 1789.
Mary married James Evans in Farnell on the 26th June 1819. She does appear to have married and had children rather late for the time period, but it does seem to match up in various census.
I have Mary Cloudsley's death cert. It states she died in 1867 aged 78, in Trinity Village, Brechin. Her father is named as Hugh Cloudsley, no profession stated and mother is an Ann Ayre.
Having gone to check SP I found the following marriage indexed;
CLOUDSLY
ANDREW
ANNE AIR/
17/07/1784
286/
10 141
Farnell
There is a Mary Cloudsley baptism indexed as follows on SP;
CLOUDSLEY
MARY
ANDREW CLOUDSLEY/ANNE AIR
0
06/09/1789
286/
10 260
Farnell
I believe this to be my Mary given the dates, the parish listed and the names involved (not overly common). But why is Andrew named as Hugh on the death cert?
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The information on the death certificate would only be to the best knowledge of the informant , there are many examples on here of the wrong information being given.
Another of the joys of this hobby :)
ev
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I note that one of the children of James Evans and Mary Cloudsley had Addison as a middle name.
There is a Hugh Cloudsley and Isobel Addison with children in the same area as Andrew Cloudsley around 1770/1780's.
Could Andrew and Hugh be Brothers ?
Perhaps the informant on Mary's death cert. mixed them up :-\
ev
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The information on the death certificate would only be to the best knowledge of the informant , there are many examples on here of the wrong information being given.
Another of the joys of this hobby :)
ev
Ah, yes. The informant on Mary's death cert was Robert Evans. Her brother in law. So, not a blood relation to Mary and her ancestors. This makes sense why it's the incorrect name. Will stick with Andrew.
Many thanks.
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I note that one of the children of James Evans and Mary Cloudsley had Addison as a middle name.
There is a Hugh Cloudsley and Isobel Addison with children in the same area as Andrew Cloudsley around 1770/1780's.
Could Andrew and Hugh be Brothers ?
Perhaps the informant on Mary's death cert. mixed them up :-\
ev
This is interesting, I hadn't got that far myself yet with the children.
Thank you for this info, very helpful.
Update.
Found the following marriage indexed regarding Hugh Cloudsley and Isobel Addison;
CLUDSLY
HUGH
ISOBEL ADDISON/
10/06/1769
280/
20 67
Craig
They had from what is indexed, 9 children in Craig Parish between 1769 and 1789, one of whom probably died in infancy due to the name Hugh appearing twice; in 1779 and again in 1783.
I can only find the following children for Andrew Cloudsley and Anne(a/e) Air;
Giles Cloudsley b.1785 Farnell
Mary Cloudsley b.1789 Farnell (my Mary).
Seems likely that Ann Air died after Mary's birth or further children just weren't registered at the Church.
I've since found the following children for James Evans and Mary Cloudsley;
Ann Addison b.1820 Guthrie
Alexander b.1822 Maryton
William b.1823 Maryton
Mary b.1827 Inverkeilor (direct ancestor)
Jane b.1829 Farnell
Looks like Ann is the probably first born given James and Mary married in 1819 and this is the first child listed. So it appears the name Addison does have some importance here. I do find it unusual that it appears to have been taken from James' sister-in-law however. I'll see what else I can find out.
Thanks again,
Jill.
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Not sure if you've searched through these;
Cloudsley
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01k85/
Annie
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Not sure if you've searched through these;
Cloudsley
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01k85/
Annie
Had a quick gander but not had a chance to peruse them all at length yet, have saved the link however. Many thanks for this.
I am now utterly obsessed with this surname. It is so unusual. I do think the Cloudsleys of Scotland are from elsewhere stemming from one initial family who came to the area. There are a few theories out there online which you've kindly linked to me Annie, for that many thanks. So much interesting information out there on this name considering it's rather rare.
There is also something interesting regarding this gentleman; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudesley_Shovell
His first name is Cloudesley, however quoted from the page; 'The unusual first name of Cloudesley derives from the surname of his maternal grandmother Lucy Cloudisley, who was the daughter of Thomas Cloudisley'
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As ev says, the information on the death certificate is only as good as the knowledge of the informant. In Scotland the name Andrew is often shortened to Drew. Say Drew, then Hugh, and you'll hear how similar they are. The person hearing the name and then writing it down may well have mistaken Drew for Hugh. A possibility? Anne
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As ev says, the information on the death certificate is only as good as the knowledge of the informant. In Scotland the name Andrew is often shortened to Drew. Say Drew, then Hugh, and you'll hear how similar they are. The person hearing the name and then writing it down may well have mistaken Drew for Hugh. A possibility? Anne
Very good point Anne. Didn't think of that. I do feel there is a connection to the Hugh Cloudsley that married Isobel Addison given the middle name of James Evans and Mary Cloudsley's daughter Ann Addison, but yes I do think it's been a mistake with how it was heard.
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For anyone interested in this Cloudsley name, I've found the following person in the 1841 census.
FreeCen.
Civil Parish: Montrose Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 29 Page: 6
Address: Newark Cot Hillsde Hedderwick
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
COLLUM Margaret F 60 Independent Angus
CLOUDSLY Catharine F 30 Independent England
RENNY Margaret F 6 Pauper Angus
A Cloudsly born in England living in Montrose. There does seem to be close connection to England and the Cloudslys of Montrose.
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Have you looked for other possible family members in the same area as Catharine in 1841?
Have you found her in Scotland whether married or single in 1851 as it may give a specific place of birth in England?
It could be that the child on 1841 Margaret Renny/Rennie aged 6 born Angus is her daughter?
Have you looked for her baptism although she may not have been baptised/record lost or later in 1851?
As you say, name not too common but she could be under any name in 1851 such as Renny if she was illegitimate given her father's surname although he may not have registered her/her mother's maiden name/step-father's surname if Catherine has married by 1851?
Lots of possibilities/ideas.
Annie
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Have you looked for other possible family members in the same area as Catharine in 1841?
Have you found her in Scotland whether married or single in 1851 as it may give a specific place of birth in England?
It could be that the child on 1841 Margaret Renny/Rennie aged 6 born Angus is her daughter?
Have you looked for her baptism although she may not have been baptised/record lost or later in 1851?
As you say, name not too common but she could be under any name in 1851 such as Renny if she was illegitimate given her father's surname although he may not have registered her/her mother's maiden name/step-father's surname if Catherine has married by 1851?
Lots of possibilities/ideas.
Annie
Here she is in 1851;
Piece: SCT1851/312 Place: Montrose -Angus Enumeration District: 3B
Civil Parish: Montrose B Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 256 Page: 3 Schedule: 9
Address: Hillside Of Hedderwick
Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
CLOUDSLEY Catherine Georgina Head U F 39 Keeps Lodgers England - -
No specification on place of birth, but we do have a middle name now. I have found the following birth record in Norwich, I believe this is her, though the years are out by approx 4.
Name: Catharina Georgina Cloudsley
Birth Date: 21 Apr 1808
Baptism Date: 19 May 1808
Baptism Place: Norwich, St James with Pockthorpe, Norfolk, England
Parish: Norwich, St James with Pockthorpe
Event Type: Baptism
Father: George Cloudsley
Mother: Martha Clarke Clarke seems to be an error, I've checked other sources and seen the original, it's most likely Laws or varients.
In regards to the Margaret Renny, I looked on SP for baptisms and could only find this one that matches Margaret in 1841;
RENNY
MARGARET
JAMES RENNY/CLEMENTINA BEATTIE
0
23/03/1835
312/
100 308
Montrose
I wonder if she is related to the Margaret Collum who is listed with Catherine in 1841 rather than being a daughter of Catherine? Given Catherine's occupation in 1851 as "Keeps lodgers" I feel this is more likely.
Catherine is still unmarried in 1851, after this she disappears. Had no luck on SP with marriages or deaths.
Jill
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In regards to the Margaret Renny, I looked on SP for baptisms and could only find this one that matches Margaret in 1841;
RENNY
MARGARET
JAMES RENNY/CLEMENTINA BEATTIE
0
23/03/1835
312/
100 308
Montrose
I wonder if she is related to the Margaret Collum who is listed with Catherine in 1841 rather than being a daughter of Catherine? Given Catherine's occupation in 1851 as "Keeps lodgers" I feel this is more likely.
Catherine is still unmarried in 1851, after this she disappears. Had no luck on SP with marriages or deaths.
Jill
For reference..
"Civil Parish: Montrose Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 29 Page: 6
Address: Newark Cot Hillsde Hedderwick
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
COLLUM Margaret F 60 Independent Angus
CLOUDSLY Catharine F 30 Independent England
RENNY Margaret F 6 Pauper Angus
A Cloudsly born in England living in Montrose. There does seem to be close connection to England and the Cloudslys of Montrose"
I would personally hazard a guess that Margaret Renny is more likely to be related to Catherine Cloudsly?
My reasoning is....
Where different names are listed, usually the immediate family would be listed 1st then others beneath (from my experience) but I'm unsure if that was the case with all?
They both may well be related to Margaret Collum but sadly it was 1841 which would be guessing.
Have you found a marriage for Margaret Renny?
Edit...Read your post re 1851 for Catherine so the Margaret Renny scenario is now in doubt especially being so young & on the bottom of the list ??? ::)
Annie
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Have you found Catherine Cloudsley, Margaret Collum & Margaret Renny in 1861?
Annie
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Given that Margaret Collum and Catharine Cloudsly are both described as 'Independent' and Margaret Rennie as 'Pauper', have you considered the possibility that Margaret is an orphaned child boarded out by the parish with Margaret and Catherine, both of whom have an independent income of their own?
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Have you found Catherine Cloudsley, Margaret Collum & Margaret Renny in 1861?
Annie
I haven't found Catherine Cloudsley after 1851 with wide search parameters and no Margaret Collum after 1841. She is 60-64 in 1841 though so, she is older.
I have had no luck in searching for a death in either the OPRs or Civil Reg for a death for Catherine again with very wide search parameters. She potentially goes back to England of course.
I've found 3 Margaret Rennies that were born in Angus around 1835 (+/- 5) in 1851;
- One aged 14 at Cotton of Greystone, Monikie. She is a granddaughter to a family with the name 'Couper' and she is a Farm Servant. Lists her being born in Angus-Arbroath. I do not think this is her.
- One aged 18 at Craigo Mill Bothy, Logie Pert, with 14 other people. All of these people are listed as Flax Factory Workers. It appears none are obvious relations to Margaret. This Margaret was born Angus-Montrose. Unsure on this one, she could've lied about her age in 1851 of course.
And finally this one (FreeCen);
Piece: SCT1851/319 Place: St Vigeans -Angus Enumeration District: 4b
Civil Parish: St Vigeans Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: St Vigeans B
Folio: 244 Page: 22 Schedule: 40
Address: Tarry Bank Seaton
Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
SMART William Head M M 34 Master Wright Emp 2 Boys Angus - St Vigeans Wright's house
SMART Susan Wife M F 30 Angus - Farnell
SMART William Son - M 4 Angus - St Vigeans
SMART Isobel Dau - F 2 Angus - St Vigeans
RUSSELL Joseph Servnt U M 17 Wright Apprentice Angus - Inverkeillor
RENNY Margret Servnt U F 15 House Servant Angus - Brechin
RAMSAY Alexander Servnt - M 9 Outdoor Servant Angus - St Vigeans
The age most closely matches the Margaret Renny in 1841, but I can't help but feel that the Margaret in Logie Pert is the same one in 1841.
Given that Margaret Collum and Catharine Cloudsly are both described as 'Independent' and Margaret Rennie as 'Pauper', have you considered the possibility that Margaret is an orphaned child boarded out by the parish with Margaret and Catherine, both of whom have an independent income of their own?
Yes, I do feel that this is more likely and that Margaret Renny is unrelated to Margaret Collum and Catherine.
Many thanks,
Jill.
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I think I would agree that the one in Logie Pert is the most likely. It may not be her who said she was 18 - could be her employer getting it wrong.
As she was listed as a pauper before the establishment of the parochial board system in 1845, it is possible that there mighht be some mention of her in the Montrose Kirk Session records, because it was the Kirk Session who looked after paupers at that time.
Also, as she was only about 12 in 1845, there is a small chance that she was dealt with by the parochial board too, but I can't remember if the Montrose parochial board records have survived. If they have, Angus Archives should either have them or know where they are.
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Hi Liviani,
I have just been looking at the marriages on one of my own OPRs & I may have a relative of yours on the list :-\
Cludsley & Welsh... 27 May 1809, Alexander Cludsley & Jean Welsh (Garvock, Kincardine)...Both ITP (In this Parish)
Annie
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Hi Liviani,
I have just been looking at the marriages on one of my own OPRs & I may have a relative of yours on the list :-\
Cludsley & Welsh... 27 May 1809, Alexander Cludsley & Jean Welsh (Garvock, Kincardine)...Both ITP (In this Parish)
Annie
Hi Annie,
I've had a look at my Cloudsley's and I only appear to have one Alexander Cloudsley. With little information. I've not fully done the branches yet, limited info out there for the time period and all.
The Alexander I have was born 1752 in Maryton to William Cloudsley and Margaret Campbell. He was the brother of my 6x great-grandfather Andrew Cloudsley who married Ann(e) Air.
So he would've been about 57 when this marriage took place. Though not impossible. According to SP there are 18 Alexander Cloudsleys (various spellings) born in Scotland in the OPRs. Most of them around Montrose. There is one born in Garvock in 1764 to a James Cloudsly and Elspet Crol.
At present, unsure. I do think all the Cloudsleys stem from a few that moved here though, but again, too far back to verify for certain.
Jill.
Edit:
Been browsing Cloudsleys on SP and found the following;
Not sure if you've seen this record before Annie?
Cloudsly
Alexander
11/5/1840
tenant at Langleys of Redford in county of Kincardine, spouse of Jean Welsh
Inventory; Ante-Nuptial Articles of Agreement with spouse
Stonehaven Sheriff Court
SC5/41/7
2nd Edit; Found the following link for you regarding this couple you have in your tree. It contains quite a lot of information. http://www.jimlow.com/home/genealogy/webcards/ps01/ps01_407.html (http://www.jimlow.com/home/genealogy/webcards/ps01/ps01_407.html)
Now interestingly, I have also come across this page before when looking up the Cloudsley name.
Look who this site features; http://www.jimlow.com/home/genealogy/webcards/ps21/ps21_161.html (http://www.jimlow.com/home/genealogy/webcards/ps21/ps21_161.html)
(This couple are mentioned earlier in this thread).
I do find this layout quite hard to navigate personally however.
3rd Edit; The Ann Addison Evans thing keeps bothering me. I can't help but feel that Hugh Cloudsley and Isobel Addison are very relevant here. I can't place it. It's that discrepancy re Hugh/Andrew on Mary Evans m.s. Cloudsley's death cert. ??? ??? ???
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Liviani...
"Cludsley & Welsh... 27 May 1809, Alexander Cludsley & Jean Welsh (Garvock, Kincardine)...Both ITP (In this Parish)"
They're not my relatives or any connection to me :D
I remembered your family name & when I saw it on the page of my own relative's baptism I thought I'd let you know just incase it may be of relevance to you.
I was actually doing a double check on that particular page to see if there were any other baptisms which may have been relevant to myself.
Anyway, if you find at a later date it may be yours then I can give you it.
Annie
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Liviani...
"Cludsley & Welsh... 27 May 1809, Alexander Cludsley & Jean Welsh (Garvock, Kincardine)...Both ITP (In this Parish)"
They're not my relatives or any connection to me :D
I remembered your family name & when I saw it on the page of my own relative's baptism I thought I'd let you know just incase it may be of relevance to you.
I was actually doing a double check on that particular page to see if there were any other baptisms which may have been relevant to myself.
Anyway, if you find at a later date it may be yours then I can give you it.
Annie
Doh. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Well.. I totally misread that.
Thanks though for the offer, I'll keep it in mind. ;D