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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: higgypee on Friday 09 June 17 09:10 BST (UK)
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I have added more detailed information - please look at the end of the post
Hello All, I am rather new to this and have hit a dead end with my great grandfather, James Miller. In Liverpool in 1901 he was living with his wife, Catha(e)rine, lots of children (including 1 month old twin daughters) and in 1911 the twins were dead (died 1901), his son Anthony (my GF) was in a workhouse and his wife was in another workhouse where she says she is a widow. I have bought the death certificate of a James Miller who died in 1901, but I am no further forward. The only birth for a James Miller in the right timeframe is July 1860 in Auchtergaven, Perth where the father's name is given as George Miller and the mother Betsy Bell. When James married my GG Grandmother he gave his father's name as James. Another James Miller of the right age turns up in other census results, living as an apprentice with Walker and Margaret Scott. No mention of parents. I am absolutely baffled. If anyone can help me shine a light on this I will be very grateful.
Marriage 15th November 1893 in All Hallows church Allerton, Liverpool. Age 31, living in West Derby, father James Miller (deceased) to Catherine Jones, living in Allerton, father John Jones (deceased)
1901 Census James Miller 41
Catherine Miller 37
Margaret Miller 6
Anthony Miller 4
Helen G Miller 3
Lily Miller 1/12
Rose Miller 1/12
1911 census Catherine Miller Walton on the Hill, Lancashire, as a widow. I found the death of the twins, Rose Miller b & d 1901 West Derby RD
Volume 8b Page 387
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If you share a bit more information you might get more illumination:
Details of the marriage - when, where, ages, parents and witnesses
Details of each child name, birth date, birth place
What led you to a circa 1860 birth?
Where have you already looked (to save us duplicating your efforts)
It probably doesn't matter very much but you quote your great grandfather marrying your GG Grandmother (presumably Catherine).
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Sorry, I will amend the post. I'm very new to this.
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Hi higgypee ..I would say there is a possibility Margaret Scott is the mother of James Miller and a chance he was illegitimate ...Margaret Stein married Walter Scott 1865 Auchterarder James Miller is with them in the 1871/1881 census ...There is a birth for a James Miller 1856 in Auchterarder might be worth looking at to see what it says ...James Miller is with Margaret Stein and her mother Janet Caw or McKintosh in the 1861 census in Auchterarder
Rosie
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Is this the same family in the 1891 Census at Gorchen Street West Derby
Margt Scott age 57 (widow )
James M. Scott age 29 son
David 21,Mary 16,Robert 11,
Janet Caw age down as 50 ( Grandmother
Rosie
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The death record you have for James Miller in 1901 Is it the right one relating to your James ?
Rosie
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I see you have another post on this James Miller going by the marriage in 1893 the witnesses were David and Mary Scott ...If this is the family you are following there is a chance this James Miller is with Margaret Scott in the later census ???
Rosie
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The death record you have for James Miller in 1901 Is it the right one relating to your James ?
Rosie
Other post on Lancashire board indicates it may not be right certificate
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=772993.
An online tree suggests that the James Miller age 40 who died 1901 was husband of Sarah Jane Thomas :-\
ADDED I think he appears at Court House, 1 Birkett Street, Liverpool in 1901 occ Dock Labourer
RG13/3424 f86 p8 (By the following census Sarah Jane has remarried)
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Hi higgypee ..I would say there is a possibility Margaret Scott is the mother of James Miller and a chance he was illegitimate ...Margaret Stein married Walter Scott 1865 Auchterarder James Miller is with them in the 1871/1881 census ...There is a birth for a James Miller 1856 in Auchterarder might be worth looking at to see what it says ...James Miller is with Margaret Stein and her mother Janet Caw or McKintosh in the 1861 census in Auchterarder
Rosie,
I'm thinking this one looks a possible going by Margaret's m/s Stein/Steen (pronounced the same)?
STEEN JAMES (1859) 329/ 124 Auchterarder
Annie
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"Margaret Stein married Walter Scott 1865 Auchterarder James Miller is with them in the 1871/1881 census ...James Miller is with Margaret Stein and her mother Janet Caw or McKintosh in the 1861 census in Auchterarder"
Rosie,
Do you know what James' relationship was recorded as on those census'?
Annie
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Hi Annie in the 1861 census he was recorded as grandson ...1871/1881 he is recorded as boarder
1891 He is down as James M Scott ( son )
Rosie
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Rosie,
Sorry, does it give where he was born (apart from Perthshire) & what was his age on each?
If born illegitimate to Margaret Stein he would have the surname Stein on his BC.
If the father (presumably Miller) was present, he would have the father's surname on his BC.
If the latter was true, he would be indexed on SP under both Stein & Miller which he isn't.
Strange he's recorded as 'Boarder' having previously been down as G/son ???
Annie
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In the 1871 census he is age 11, born Perthshire, Auchterarder. The family are living in Perth at that point. They have moved to West Derby by 1881 where he is given as age 10 born Scotland.
Isobel
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1861 Census address Crown Hotel Auchterarder
Janet Caw age 50 b Dunkeld Perth ( cotton winder )
Margaret Sheen (Margaret Caw ) age 21 b Methven Perth ( daughter)
James Miller age 7 born Auchterarder ( grandson )
Andrew Mcrea age 70 boarder
1871 Census address 146,High Street Perth Burgh
Walter Scott age 27 (butcher )
Margaret Scott (Caw ) age 30
James Scott age 5 b Lochee Forforshire
Jessie Scott age 3 b St Leonards Perthshire
David Scott age 1 b Dunning Perthshire
Janet Caw age 53 b Methven Perthshire ( mother in law )
James Miller age 11 b Auchterarder ( boarder )
Other census records they are in England
Rosie
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I wonder if James Miller was 7 months rather than 7 in the 1861 census?
Isobel
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This has me confused ::)
1861 Census address Crown Hotel Auchterarder
Janet Caw age 50 b Dunkeld Perth ( cotton winder )
Margaret Sheen (Margaret Caw ) age 21 b Methven Perth ( daughter)
James Miller age 7 born Auchterarder ( grandson )
Andrew Mcrea age 70 boarder
1871 Census address 146,High Street Perth Burgh
Walter Scott age 27 (butcher )
Margaret Scott (Caw ) age 30
James Scott age 5 b Lochee Forforshire
Jessie Scott age 3 b St Leonards Perthshire
David Scott age 1 b Dunning Perthshire
Janet Caw age 53 b Methven Perthshire ( mother in law )
James Miller age 11 b Auchterarder ( boarder )
Other census records they are in England
Then...
They have moved to West Derby by 1881 where he is given as age 10
1861 aged 7 (b 1854) G/son
1871 aged 11 (b 1860) Boarder
1881 aged 10 (b 1871) Boarder
Something not adding up there....but what ???
Annie
Added....Isobel, I wondered that too but that doesn't account for the 1881 entry ::)
I've been to nights out at the Crown Hotel, Auchterarder but over a century later (1980s)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/thedouglascampbellshow/5099777559
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Sorry 1881 should be 20, not 10!
According to Findmypast and the index to the 1861 census on SP the James Miller living in Auchterarder with Janet Caw is age 1 ( not 7). This ties in with age on later census entries.
Isobel
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Thanks Isobel,
That would/could/should tie in with....STEEN JAMES (1859) 329/ 124 Auchterarder :-\ ;D
Annie
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It was common for illegitimate children to be known by their father's surname although the father's surname was usually/often a middle name.
Annie
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Good find Rosinish. That James Steen looks like a good match.
Isobel
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Will need to wait for higgypee to confirm one way or the other but from the findings of Rosie & yourself it does look promising.
Higgy, that birth can be downloaded at scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Credits cost £0.25 each and are available in batches of 30 (£7.50) or 40 (£10) from the buy credits page.
That cert. will cost 6 credits
Annie
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Thank you all so much for the help. You see why I was so confused. I will buy credits when I have done the ironing and post the results. It is wonderful to finally be able to make the Scottish connection solid. All of my knowledge, little that it is, is of the Liverpool end, but family stories of someone coming down from Scotland and giving James (or his mother?) money were repeated. Family law mentions a German connection. No idea what that is. That is for once I have made this part solid. Thanks again, will post later today
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Ancestry has the age of James Miller as 7 on the 1861 census, Find My Past has 1.
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Ancestry has the age of James Miller as 7 on the 1861 census, Find My Past has 1.
Yes maybe the original on Scotlands People will have the right age
Rosie
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Thanks Isobel,
That would/could/should tie in with....STEEN JAMES (1859) 329/ 124 Auchterarder :-\ ;D
Annie
Yes Annie I would say you have found the right one birth certificate should confirm if Margaret is his mother ;)
Rosie
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"Margaret Stein married Walter Scott 1865 Auchterarder"
Strangely under both spellings...Could she have previously been married to a STEEN/STEIN or just a typo?
SCOTT WALTER STEEN MARGARET
1865
329/ 7
Auchterarder
SCOTT WALTER STEIN MARGARET
1865
329/ 7
Auchterarder
Annie
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Thank you all, especially Rosinish, I reckon this is my relative's birth certificate. He was born October 1859. And Margaret married Walter Scott in 1863. She was 25 and he was 22. Must have been a nice man or maybe she was lovely.
Now I can try to sort out the forward and backward from there! I'll keep you posted
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Thank you all, especially Rosinish
I can't take the credit for that as it was info. from Rosie & Isobel which lead me there.
Glad to help all the same ;)
Annie
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Someone in the Family may have known he was illeg. Stein/Steen sounds German.
That may be where the Family Law German connection comes in.
Excellent work Ladies :)
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Thank you all, especially Rosinish, I reckon this is my relative's birth certificate. He was born October 1859. And Margaret married Walter Scott in 1863. She was 25 and he was 22. Must have been a nice man or maybe she was lovely.
Now I can try to sort out the forward and backward from there! I'll keep you posted
Did you get a copy of the birth certificate ? just curious to see if the fathers name is mentioned
Rosie
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1851 Census address Michaels Close Kinross
Janet Mcintosh age 35 born Methven Perth ( outdoor labourer)
Margaret Steen age 11 born Dunkeld Perth (daughter )
Thomas Caw age 53 born Kincardine ( journeyman shoemaker )
Rosie
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Someone in the Family may have known he was illeg. Stein/Steen sounds German.
That may be where the German connection comes in.
Or maybe someone just saw Stein and thought it must be German?
Steenson or Steinson (pronounced steen-son to rhyme with 'been' or 'seen') is a variant of Stevenson.
The German word or name 'Stein' is pronounced to rhyme with 'mine' or 'fine' which is rather different. Also the 'st' at the beginning would be pronounced 'Sht' in German.
'Shtyne' is a very different sound from 'steen'.
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Unusually, the SP index seems to be wrong for the 1865 marriage of Margaret Stein. Her groom is clearly Walker ( not Walter) Scott, which matches with later census entries. He was the son of James Scott, Field Labourer, and Mary Scott nee Wedderspoon. Margaret is described as the daughter of William Stein, Field Labourer ( dec'd) and Janet Stein nee McIntosh. The witnesses names are not very clear but I think one of them may be James Zimmerman ( which would suggest German roots perhaps). I think the other might be Agnes Scrimger. I'll try and post scans.
Isobel
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Scans from 1865 marriage certificate
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Good one Isobel yes he does appear a Walker in other census records quite a mix up with family names .We certainly have a selection ;D ;D
Rosie
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I have been searching for HOURS on Scotland's people trying to find the family on the 1861 census with no joy. I have found the record on Ancestry but that doesn't match up with anything in Scotland. From ancestry I have the roll number (CSSCT1861_47) is there any way that I can use that? The birth certificate says illegitimate, no mention of father and he is named James Steen. I want to get hold of the 1861 census and then move on from there. I am also interested to find out when the name changed to Miller. Family legend has it that the original was Muller. Any tips on getting hold of the 1861 census when a search for Janet Caw, James Miller and Andrew Mcrea in Auchterarder returns no results no matter how I fiddle with spellings and variants. I could quite possibly get even more mad than usual.
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1861 census on FindMyPast has:
Crown Hotel, Auchterarder
Janet Caw, Head, F, widow, 50 born c1811, cotton winder, Dunkeld, Perthshire
Margret Steen, daughter, F, unmarried, 21 born c 1840, cotton winder, Methven, Perthshire
James Miller, grandson, M, 1 born c1860, Auchterarder, Perthshire
Andrew McRae, border, married, M, 70 born c1791, gardener, Forteviot, Perthshire
I put Janet Caw age 50 into SP and the return was as follows:
CAW JANET 1861 F 50 ref:329/ 8/ 7 Auchterarder, Perth
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[quote author=J11 link=topic=772992.msg6262387#msg6262387 date=1497258223
I put Janet Caw age 50 into SP and the return was as follows:
CAW JANET 1861 F 50 ref:329/ 8/ 7 Auchterarder, Perth
[/quote]
Also same reference number for Andrew MCrea age 70 Auchterarder Perth ;)