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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Devon => Topic started by: Forfarian on Sunday 11 June 17 10:21 BST (UK)
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In the 1911 census, there is a household at White Lodge, Seaton, Devon including Elizabeth Florence Mitford, 80, widow; Bertram Vernon Mitford, son, 39; Beatrice Agnes Mitford, daughter-in-law, 30; Florence Allardice, visitor, 31. Both Beatrice and Florence were born at Mylemoney, Kadar, India.
What I would like to know is whether Beatrice and Florence were sisters.
I have a lot of information about Florence's family. Her father, William Alexander Allardice (1840-1897), was a coffee planter at Mylemoney, which is in southern India near Bangalore or Mysore. Her mother was Helen Guthrie (1844-1928), my 4th cousin 4 times removed. They had 13 children, but so far I have found only 10 of them including Florence. I have marriage and/or death information for all of these except one child who probably died in infancy.
According to the death indexes Beatrice Agnes Mitford was born on 15 October 1880, which is only 11 months after Florence's birth on 12 November 1879. This does seem to be rather soon, but I suppose it's not impossible.
However I have, so far, completely failed to find the marriage of Bertram Vernon Mitford to Beatrice Agnes to find out whether or not she was one of the three missing Allardice children.
Any ideas?
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A Bertram Vernon Mitford, s/o Charles Venables Mitford, gentleman, married Beatrice Agnes Allardice, d/o William Alexander Allardice, coffee planter, 20 Dec 1900 in St Helier Jersey, Beatrice born in India.
Jo :)
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Brilliant, thank you, jomcd967. That fits perfectly because William Alexander died in Jersey.
Where does one find Jersey BMDs?
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I really don't know about Jersey records, the marriage just popped up on Ancestry, but if you'd like to tell me who/what you're looking for I'll happily have a look.
Jo :)
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I really don't know about Jersey records, the marriage just popped up on Ancestry, but if you'd like to tell me who/what you're looking for I'll happily have a look.
It was more a general query rather than a specific, since you had kindly turned up Beatrice Agnes for me. I can access Ancestry in various libraries.
I would be interested in anything more on this Allardice Family. I know that William Alexander died in Jersey on 12 November 1897, but not exactly where, and I have at least two, possibly three, of his children still to find. (I have read that there were 13 children, of whom 4 were sons; so far I have found 5 sons and 6 daughters). I have his birth and that of his wife Helen Guthrie, and I know that Helen died in Kent in 1928.
As for the known children
Helen Maria married William Hamilton Ritchie in India in 1896. They had one daughter, who married but had no children as far as I know. William died in 1901, and in 1902 Helen Maria married Everard Milman Playfair. They are said to have had one daughter but I have not found anything about her.
Mary Isabella married Adam Brack Boyd in India in 1888. I think he must be the one who remarried in 1913, describing himself as a widower, but I have failed to find a death of Mary Isabella (unless Adam was lying!). I don't think there were any children - or if there were I have failed to find them.
William Patrick died in India in 1910, unmarried.
David Onslow died in South Africa in 1960. He married in South Africa in 1905 and had one son.
Alexandrina Colquhoun married John Roland Errington in India in 1893
Laura Winifred married Dugald Alexander MacMillan in India in 1896. I have plenty information about her descendants.
Duncan Alexander, born 1878, probably died in infancy, but I have not found any information about that.
Beatrice Agnes married Bertram Vernon Mitford in Jersey in 1900, as you have kindly told me.
Florence married Ernest Bolden in London in 1919. I think he died in 1952 and she in 1965. I have not found any children.
Harry was killed in France in 1916. I have read that he was married, but have not found any evidence of a marriage.
Colin McDermid was killed in Flanders in 1915. I have no information to suggest that he was married.
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Williams probate is also on Ancestry, William Alexander Allardice of Mylemony Chickmugamore Mysore territory India, Coffe planter died 12 November 1897 at 1 Norfolk Terrace Rouge Buillon Jersey.
Jo :)
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Thank you!
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Hi, here is a photograph of Norfolk Terrace
https://www.theislandwiki.org/index.php/File:NorfolkTerraceRougeB.jpg
It was a very desirable, affluent area according to this website
https://www.theislandwiki.org/index.php/Rouge_Bouillon
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Thank you, Jool. That looks like a very suitable place for a retired Indian coffee planter to live.
He must still have been in India in 1896, when two of his daughters got married there, so he must have come to Jersey not long before he died the following year. His widow was still in St Helier in 1911, but she died in England.
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I would be interested in anything more on this Allardice Family. I know that William Alexander died in Jersey on 12 November 1897, but not exactly where, and I have at least two, possibly three, of his children still to find. (I have read that there were 13 children, of whom 4 were sons; so far I have found 5 sons and 6 daughters). I have his birth and that of his wife Helen Guthrie, and I know that Helen died in Kent in 1928.
As for the known children
Helen Maria married William Hamilton Ritchie in India in 1896
Mary Isabella married Adam Brack Boyd in India in 1888
William Patrick died in India in 1910
David Onslow died in South Africa in 1960
Alexandrina Colquhoun married John Roland Errington in India in 1893
Laura Winifred married Dugald Alexander MacMillan in India in 1896
Duncan Alexander, born 1878, probably died in infancy
Beatrice Agnes married Bertram Vernon Mitford in Jersey in 1900, as you have kindly told me
Florence married Ernest Bolden in London in 1919
Harry was killed in France in 1916
Colin McDermid was killed in Flanders in 1915
Have you got Margaret, who was with Bertram and Beatrice in Jersey in 1901?
Margaret G Allardice, sister in law, 19 b India.
I think she died as Margaret Gwendoline Vere-Stead in Devon in 1958, aged 75.
An online tree has her born at Mysore, India on 15 Jan 1882 & married 1909 in Valparaiso, Chile to Redmond Morres Vere-Stead, who died at Iquique, Chile on 30 May 1937. One son is attributed to them: John Ozanne Vere-Stead, born 18 Dec 1909 at Virjinia, Tarapaca, Chile.
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No, Margaret is one I didn't have. Thank you very much indeed. I had looked for Bertram in 1901, but did not find him.
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Hi all
The Allardice family in India are the offspring of William Patrick Allardice , Writer to the signet, who studied in Edinburgh . Captain Allardice was born in Malta. The family are linked to Brechin and the Guthries of Brechin. I am the grandson of David onslow Allardice, who settled in South africa after The Boer war. The Indian family were born on Mylomony Coffee estate , in Karanataka, near Mysore.
See my GENI profile
Neville
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I am the grandson of David onslow Allardice, who settled in South africa after The Boer war.
See my GENI profile
Hello, Neville. You and I must be 6th cousins once removed (!). I have loads of information about the Guthrie/Brechin connection, and various Indian connections, including the birth and marriage details of several of the Allardice family there. However I cannot find you on Geni. There seem to be several references on A******y to your grandfather.
Once you have made one more post to this forum, I will be able to contact you by Private Message to exchange e-mail addresses if you want to compare notes. Look forward to hearing from you.
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I am Beatrice Mitford's great neice. Her brother (my grandfather David Onslow Allardice) first travelled to South Africa as a volunteer in Lumsden's Horse which was a volunteer regiment of tea and coffee planters during the Boer War along with his brother Hugh (after whom my own father is named). Both David and Hugh made it back to India after the Boer War but I can find no record of what happened to Hugh after that.
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Thank you, Hertslet. I apologise for not responding more promptly, but I have been away from home and unable to check my main database.
Like Neville, you must be my 6th cousin once removed! Pleased to 'meet' you too.
I read somewhere that William Alexander Allardice and Helen Guthrie had 13 children, 4 of whom were sons, but I have only found 12 so far, including 5 sons. I did not have anything on Hugh, so he must be the 13th child and the 6th of the 4 sons.
All information about this Allardice family will be of interest, and I have lots of information about the family of Helen Guthrie. We won't be able to contact one another off-forum until you have made 3 posts to the forum. So please do post twice more, then we can get in touch direct.
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Thanks that is interesting. I was about 4 or 5 when I met Aunt Beatrice - she travelled by Union Castle liner to Durban in South Africa to visit my grandfather, Her brother, David Onslow. I have a photograph of taken on her arrival with my father and I.
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William Alexander was apparently the first chairman of the Kadur Country Club in Karnataka.
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Hi Forfarian
I have recently returned from Mylemoney coffee farm ,Chickmagalur, India. I found three graves in the coffee plants near the main house.
The graves were of the infant Duncan Allardice and John Allardice ( son of Captain William and Ann Molison)1824-1862. John was William Patrick Allardice,s step brother and William Alexander Allardice,s uncle)John's gravestone stated that he was survived by a wife and 2 children. Was Francis Molison Allardice one of these children ?
The third grave was Thomas Cannon, the original British coffee planter, who was related to the Allardices ,possibly via the Lowe family( Captain Williams wife Catherine Lowe had a sister who married a Cannon, Margaret Auchterlony Lowe?
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Thanks, Neville, very interesting.
I've only been researching the family of William Alexander Allardice, because it's his wife Helen Guthrie who is my connection to your family, so I have not looked in detail at earlier generations and I don't have immediate answers to your other questions.
However Francis Molison Allardice, son of John Allardice, coffee planter, and Caroline Ann, was born on 19 June 1862 and baptised on 13 September 1862 at Chudderghaut, Hurryhur, Madras. I have not found another child of this couple.
Do the gravestones contain any more information, for example the date of John's death?
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John Allardice died in 1862. I guess from malaria or tropical diseases
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John Allardice died in 1862. I guess from malaria or tropical diseases
Probably. Pity it hadn't given an exact date - if he had died between the birth and baptism of Francis Molison Allardice it would have been stronger evidence that it was the same John Allardice.
I can't find a marriage of John Allardice to Caroline, or another child.
I think Francis Mol(l)ison was the great-great-grandfather of John Allardice (1824-1862) but you will know from other correspondence that there are some inconsistencies in the evidence. Also that what I would really, really like to find is a link between the Mol(l)lisons in Brechin and the ones in Craigendowie in Lethnot.
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I had a look at Cannon/Lowe connections.
Margaret Ouchterlony Lowe (1780-1850) married the Reverend David Cannan (1774-1854) in Brechin in 1804. He was minister of Kirriemuir, then Murroes, then Mains and Strathmartine. There were 11 children including Thomas, born 1817.
Thomas was a planter in Mysore. He made a will in 1859, leaving legacies to his cousins, Helen Jane, William Alexander and George James Campbell, three of the five children of William Patrick Allardice, whom he appointed an Executor along with William Campbell Onslow, whose son Harrington later married Helen Jane Allardice.
He also left legacies to David and Margaret Forgan, 'commonly known as Cannan', the children of his late sister Helen Cannan (1812/3- 1845) from her marriage to James Forgan (1806/11- 1852), and to the children of his brother Alexander Cannan, Captain in the Madras Army.
James Forgan appears to have blotted his copybook. He was tried at the spring circuit in Perth (that's the original Perth, not its namesake Perth, Western Australia) on 26 April 1852 on charges of theft, habit and repute, and previous conviction. He died in Dundee Prison about three weeks later and was buried in the Howff, Dundee on 22 May 1852. There are court papers in the National Records of Scotland but I have not seen these.
So yes, Margaret Ouchterlony Lowe was the sister of Catherine Lowe. Their parents were Joseph Low(e) and Margaret Young.
Wouldn't it be interesting to know why he left nothing to his cousin John McDermid Allardice, brother of the three cousins to whom he did leave legacies? And why he passed over all the rest of his 10 siblings and their families?
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I had a look at Cannon/Lowe connections.
Margaret Ouchterlony Lowe (1780-1850) married the Reverend David Cannan (1774-1854) in Brechin in 1804. He was minister of Kirriemuir, then Murroes, then Mains and Strathmartine. There were 11 children including Thomas, born 1817.
Thomas was a planter in Mysore. He made a will in 1859, leaving legacies to his cousins, Helen Jane, William Alexander and George James Campbell, three of the five children of William Patrick Allardice, whom he appointed an Executor along with William Campbell Onslow, whose son Harrington later married Helen Jane Allardice.
He also left legacies to David and Margaret Forgan, 'commonly known as Cannan', the children of his late sister Helen Cannan (1812/3- 1845) from her marriage to James Forgan (1806/11- 1852), and to the children of his brother Alexander Cannan, Captain in the Madras Army.
James Forgan appears to have blotted his copybook. He was tried at the spring circuit in Perth (that's the original Perth, not its namesake Perth, Western Australia) on 26 April 1852 on charges of theft, habit and repute, and previous conviction. He died in Dundee Prison about three weeks later and was buried in the Howff, Dundee on 22 May 1852. There are court papers in the National Records of Scotland but I have not seen these.
So yes, Margaret Ouchterlony Lowe was the sister of Catherine Lowe. Their parents were Joseph Low(e) and Margaret Young.
Wouldn't it be interesting to know why he left nothing to his cousin John McDermid Allardice, brother of the three cousins to whom he did leave legacies? And why he passed over all the rest of his 10 siblings and their families?
Hi Forfarian,
I too find it very interesting that John McDermid Allardice was not included in Thomas' will, considering two (?) of his brothers and one sister were named. William Patrick Allardice had another daughter Maria, and two more sons (both from a second marriage - Hugh Gourlay and Achibald Allardice), who both would have also been born when Thomas wrote his will in 1859, though very young.
Do you know where I can access Thomas Cannon's will? I am interested in both William Patrick Allardice's family and Thomas' brother Alexander Cannon's family.
I understand that Alexander Cannon's children - Alexander Allardice, Margaret and Frances are listed as defendents in the description for the courtcase 'Onslow vs Allardice' which disputes Thomas's will as far as I know? But I would really like to know why Mary, Alexander's fourth child, was not included here.
If you had any information I would really appreciate it.
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Hello,
I am interested in the Lowe family, but cannot find the birth or relationship details cited here.
Lady Clifford (Emmeline Marjory Lowe) daughter of Robert Atwell Lowe, a Judge of the ICS, and Charlotte ??? is cited by debretts as being the great niece of The Commander in Chief, Viscount Lake. I believe Robert Atwell Lowe was a descendant of Joseph Lowe and Marjory Young given his daughter attended the funeral of Emma Ronald, the wife of Gen. Robert Cannan / Cannon (son of Joseph and Marjory). So your assistance in obtaining the Low/Lowe details, or any other insights, would be kind.
There seems to be virtually no references to Margaret Oochterlony Lowe and few to Robert Atwell Lowe. But I presume given Margaret's middle name of 'Ochterlony', the profession of a few of her sons in the HEIC (although a number entered the cloth), and the alleged connection to Gerard Lake, 1st Viscount to Robert Atwell Lowe (or his wife Charlotte) points to a strong connection with India.
Many Thanks,
Mark
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My apologies, zackshome and Robert Cannon. For some reason I didn't get notifications of your posts, or I would have responded a lot sooner.
I can't recall where I saw the contents of Thomas Cannon's will but it is available through https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills. The attached screenshot is from the Calendar of Probate.
I am interested in the Lowe family, but cannot find the birth or relationship details cited here.
Have you been looking in Ancestry? If so, don't.
It is all on Scotland's People www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk.
For background, see also https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0
Some additional information about David Cannan at https://www.ecclegen.com/general-index-c/#Campbell,%20William%20James