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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Devon => Topic started by: Dave Landy on Tuesday 13 June 17 13:21 BST (UK)
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Hello, for some reason William Thomas' birth (Landricombe or Landricome) is not on the GRO register, so I do not have his mother's maiden name. I have a copy of his marriage certificate to Lillian Elizabeth Turner in 1877 and it says he was 20 years old in December 1877.
His name is just William on the certificate, but the 1881 census has William T and Lillian E Lundricombe, with two children who are on the GRO register, confirming it is the right William.
His father's name on the marriage certificate is also William Landricome, occupation Porter - but I cannot find a census entry for 1861 or 1871 that would give me his mother's name, so that I can tell which William Landricom(b)e was his father - there are two or three choices!
His address at the time of his marriage was 111 Looe Street Plymouth, so the 1871 0r even 1881 census might have his parents living at that address, but I can find nothing by searching online.
If anyone is able to help I would be very grateful, thank you.
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Hi
Welcome to rootschat
I cannot see any numbers higher than 40 (Looe Street) - Could it be flat 1, 11 or something similar
:-\
Who were the witnesses to the wedding.
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Thank you for your welcome!
Unfortunately the certificate is printed, rather than a photocopy, so I have to assume Team 3 of the GRO interpreted the address correctly.
It is interesting that apparently his wife is the only one who signed her name, William and the two witnesses all made their marks. The witnesses were Richard Tongue and Elizabeth Landricome. Unfortunately, finding a specific Elizabeth who was alive and still a Landricome in 1877 has been problematic. I thought I had a fairly complete family tree, but if one birth is missing, others might be. Without census confirmation it's become more difficult than I expected.
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this is a possible
1871 23 Looe St RG10/2112 folio 107 pg 39
William Landacombe head mar 33 ropemaker
Jane wife 36
William son 11
James son 5
Elizabeth dau 9
David son 3
William Brown nurse child 3
all born Plymouth, surname transcribed as Sandacombe on at least one commercial site, but the first letter is not the same as the first one in school. Street name has been transcribed as Love!
birth reg of David George Landricome march qtr 1868 Plymouth vol 5b pg 272 mother's maiden name Western
1881 census 19 Moon St RG11/2192 folio 53 pg 3
Willie Landicome head mar 48 porter
Jane wife 48
David son 13
all born Plymouth
I can find a likely Jane Western in earlier years, problem being that she married William Kent, a fisherman, in 1854.
::)
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Good finds,osprey!
Is this birth too late?
GRO Index
KENT, WILLIAM THOMAS mmn WESTERN
1859 S Quarter in PLYMOUTH Volume 05B Page 247
Maureen
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birth regs all with mother's maiden name Western
Elizabeth Jane Landecombe dec qtr 1862 Plymouth vol 5b pg 270
James David Landricombe march qtr 1865 Plymouth vol 5b pg 258
William Thomas Kent sept qtr 1859 Plymouth vol 5b pg 247
9 April 1854 St Andrew, Plymouth William Kent bach 22 fisherman, father James, fisherman married Jane Western 21, father John, gardener both living at 26 Old Town Street, He signed, she marked, witnesses Mary Ann Newcombe & William Peter Henry White.
Jane was baptised 3 Aug 1842, date of birth noted as 20 July 1833, daughter of John Western, gardener & Elizabeth of Basket Street.
Haven't spotted Jane as yet in 1861 but William Kent is living with his parents
2112 Lower Batter St RG9/1444 folio 106 pg 18
James Kent head mar 55 fisherman
Ellen wife 57
William A son married 28 fisherman
Elizabeth dau 22 dressmaker
Jane A dau 18 tailoress
Ellen dau 15 tailoress
Frederick A grandson 7
all born Plymouth
Possible birth for Frederick A as Frederick Western june qtr 1853 Plymouth vol 5b pg 265, - for mother's maiden name which can signify an illegitimate birth.
sorry, red post as I was taking ages typing this up & checking as I went.
;D
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1861 has William Landecumbe, sailor, 23, with wife Emily Caroline. they married in 1860, his name being William Henry
there is also a William Landricome, rope maker, 23 with parents David and Elizabeth
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:)
And I'm battling with a really slow connection.
I can't open the image for this one:
1861 census
Jane Osborne 26
William Osborn 1
Priscilla Western sister? age 13
1442/77/1
Just curious as to who they are.
Maureen
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1851 - all b Plymouth
Elizabeth Western 45 - pauper widow
John Western 34 [image 24 - son so age must be more like 24]
Thomas Western 20
Jane Western 18 - plain work seamstress
William Western 14
Edward Western 13
Mary A Western 8
Agness Western 6
George Western 4
Prescilla Western 2 Mo
HO107, 1879, 789, 10
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I think the William with Jane Western is the son of David. The William Henry who married Emily Caroline Sandercock 13 Aug 1860 named his father as George, a ropemaker on his marriage. They have a son called William George june qtr 1861 so overlapping with William & Jane's children.
William Henry Landricomb was baptised 14 March 1838 son of George, ropemaker, and Margaret of Stonehouse.
William Landricomb was baptised 29 April 1838 son of David ropemaker, and Elizabeth of Stoenhouse.
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Looks like Priscilla Western's family in 1841.
John Western 38
Betsey Western 36
John Western 14
William Western 10
Jane Western 6
Edward Western 3
Mary Western 1
John's occupation does look like gardener
So is that Jane on 1861 enumerated as an Osborne??
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birth regs all with mother's maiden name Western
Elizabeth Jane Landecombe dec qtr 1862 Plymouth vol 5b pg 270
James David Landricombe march qtr 1865 Plymouth vol 5b pg 258
William Thomas Kent sept qtr 1859 Plymouth vol 5b pg 247
9 April 1854 St Andrew, Plymouth William Kent bach 22 fisherman, father James, fisherman married Jane Western 21, father John, gardener both living at 26 Old Town Street, He signed, she marked, witnesses Mary Ann Newcombe & William Peter Henry White.
Jane was baptised 3 Aug 1842, date of birth noted as 20 July 1833, daughter of John Western, gardener & Elizabeth of Basket Street.
Haven't spotted Jane as yet in 1861 but William Kent is living with his parents
2112 Lower Batter St RG9/1444 folio 106 pg 18
James Kent head mar 55 fisherman
Ellen wife 57
William A son married 28 fisherman
Elizabeth dau 22 dressmaker
Jane A dau 18 tailoress
Ellen dau 15 tailoress
Frederick A grandson 7
all born Plymouth
Possible birth for Frederick A as Frederick Western june qtr 1853 Plymouth vol 5b pg 265, - for mother's maiden name which can signify an illegitimate birth.
sorry, red post as I was taking ages typing this up & checking as I went.
;D
William Kent, fisherman, appears to be alive, well and claiming to be unmarried in 1871, living with parents James [66] and Eleanor [68] and another of their grandchildren also called Frederick [3]
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similarly in 1891, as a widower, with his widowed father
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just checked the birth regs for the 2 Williams
William Landricome june qtr East Stonehouse vol 9 pg 311 mother's maiden name Edwards
William Henry Landricome june qtr East Stonehouse vol 9 pg 329 mother's maiden name Edwards
David Landricombe married Elizabeth Edwards 23 June 1834 Plymouth St Charles, witnesses George & Margaret Landricombe.
George Landricombe married Margaret Edwards 7 April 1833 Plymouth St Charles, witnesses James Edwards & M Richard - probably the parish clerk as he witnessed several marriages.
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Looks like Priscilla Western's family in 1841.
So is that Jane on 1861 enumerated as an Osborne??
I think so! :)
Maureen
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it does look likely, doesn't it? She's the only Priscilla Western around. I wonder if it's an enumerator error?
William, son of David Landricombe is still living with his parents in 1861 - RG9/1435 folio 61 pg 12.
::)
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just checked the birth regs for some of Jane's siblings born after 1837
Edward George Western june qtr 1838 Plymouth vol 9 pg 380 mmn Newcombe
Mary Ann Western june qtr 1840 Plymouth vol 9 pg 382 mmn Newcombe
Priscilla Western march qtr 1848 Plymouth vol 9 pg 399 mmn Newcombe
John Western married Elizabeth Newcombe 3 Nov 1828 in East Stonehouse
Possibly a cousin who witnessed Jane's marriage to William Kent as she was Mary Ann Newcombe.
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Mabel, William Landricome, rope maker, 23 with parents David and Elizabeth is the William mentioned by Osprey who married Jane Kent (Western). I have a copy of their son David James' birth certificate, and looking more closely I can see the address is 13 Looe Street, not Love Street as I assumed.
I have a Railway Employments record giving William Thomas' birth as 5th May 1859 - given the GRO record mentioned for William Thomas Kent, mother's maiden name Western, is the Jul-Sep quarter, this looks like a match. He must have taken his step-father's surname. Thank you for finding that Maureen.
I will have to do more checking and double-checking, especially if I want to tell my father on Father's Day that he's really a Kent, not a Landricombe!
Edit: Mabel, the family information for Jane Western is also very appreciated, as it appears her status as my 3rd great grandmother is now confirmed. :)
I was aware of James David and David George, but the mis-spelling of Elizabeth Jane's name meant that I had missed her. It seems very likely now that she would be the Elizabeth who witnessed William Thomas' marriage - another mystery solved!
Thank you everyone who has replied, I will be tracking the leads you have dug up for some time, some of them confirming what I already knew, and this one in particular blowing my mind!
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It's possible that William Kent is not the father of William Thomas given that he has Frederick with him in 1861. In the case of a married woman, it was assumed her husband was the father of a child when registering a birth even if he wasn't the biological father.
By the way, I spotted Frederick later - he married Caroline Amelia Deahl 8 Aug 1878 at St Paul's Devonport and was in the navy. The couple are in Chesil in Dorset in later census entries. Another twig for your tree.
:D
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Thank you again for your help, I will look at Frederick a bit more.
Can I just ask how you are accessing the census and marriage data? The sites I am using still don't have the 1871 information, and using the folio data you gave gives no results.
Also, being able to find out which church a couple was married at without a physical search would have helped me enormously in the past, How have you (and others) been able to find that information? The data I have on marriages came from printed sheets someone in Plymouth sent my father, which are obviously limited. I took photos of them while visiting him, as he didn't want to let them out of his sight!
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If its any help on F M P mistranscribed. If using F M P click top right corner for image.
1871 - https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5TS-VNX
Try looking for the nurse child if still unable to locate
Commercial sites hold possible data/info on BMD also freereg https://www.freereg.org.uk/
I find https://familysearch.org/search a good source for spelling variation or mistranscription.
Also https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl can be searched phonetically, but only cert would have full info.
Cas
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FindMyPast has some Devon baptisms, marriages & burials which have images of the actual parish register attached. So I've transcribed from the register image. Plymouth St Charles seem to be on there but just an index for East Stonehouse.
If you're using Ancestry, go for 1871 for England and then you can put in ref numbers.
I found it by searching for David born 1868 with Jane in the household in Plymouth.
;)
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Just to clarify - Priscilla Western in 1851 who is shown as 2m on Ancestry transcription, looking at the original page it appears it should read 2 (yrs) 6m which ties in with her year of birth and age on later census.
Annette
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It's possible that William Kent is not the father of William Thomas given that he has Frederick with him in 1861. In the case of a married woman, it was assumed her husband was the father of a child when registering a birth even if he wasn't the biological father.
By the way, I spotted Frederick later - he married Caroline Amelia Deahl 8 Aug 1878 at St Paul's Devonport and was in the navy. The couple are in Chesil in Dorset in later census entries. Another twig for your tree.
:D
Would be interesting to see what is actually on William Thomas Kent's birth certificate - does it actually name William Kent as father or has name of father been left blank? His birth would be registered as Kent as that was his mothers surname at the time but doesn't necessarily follow that her husband would be named as father. I've seen birth certificates where although the mother is still legally married to someone who is not the said child's father the father's name has been left blank.
Annette
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If you're using Ancestry, go for 1871 for England and then you can put in ref numbers.
I found it by searching for David born 1868 with Jane in the household in Plymouth.
;)
Thank you for your detective work, I have now found them on Ancestry, under Sandaworke!
William is listed as son, not step-son, but that isn't conclusive.
I have ordered his birth certificate, just to see if it sheds any light on this.
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One further request - in any of your searching have any of you come across the marriage entry for William Landricome and Jane Kent (Western)?
Daughter Elizabeth in 1862 is a Landricome - but I guess that doesn't mean the two were married, even then? Jane clearly calls herself Landricome - the 1871 and 1181 census entries and her death registration in 1907 prove that - but I can't find with my limited skills an entry for their marriage.
On James David's birth certificate in 1865 she is listed as Jane Landricombe, late Kent, formerly Western, suggesting there was a marriage at some point. There doesn't seem to be a divorce listed - are we absolutely sure William Kent was still alive? There are some deaths registered around this time, but no ages.
I have ordered William Thomas' birth certificate which will give me his parents' names for definite, but that will take a week to get here, and I can't let go of this thread of history at the moment. :)
Thanks!
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the marriage cert for Jane Western & William Kent shows his father as a fisherman called James. There is a William Kent of the right age living with his father James & mother Ellen on the 1861 census as quoted in an earlier reply with son Frederick who was registered as Western.
1871 William is still with his parents, enumerated as unmarried RG10/2112 folio 92 pg 9 and a different grandson called Frederick, not the one born Western as he's on board a ship in Bombay (from memory).
1891 William is with this father James who is a widower and William also enumerated as widower RG12/1737 folio 72 pg 10.
Possible death William Kent aged 68 march qtr 1902 Plymouth vol 5b pg 188
If you go onto the GRO website, and use the new search feature, you can check ages at death from the period before it is shown on FreeBmd and other transcriptions.
And no, I haven't seen a marriage for Jane and William.
::)
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With so much good information in all the posts, I had forgotten that the name James came from their marriage certificate, and about the son Frederick. Thanks for the reminder. :)
If William is enumerated a widower along with his father in 1891, he must have remarried, as Jane was alive until 1907. It's easy to overlook the human element in all this, isn't it? Being a fisherman was a hard life, and to have his first wife leave him and his second wife die would have been a hard blow. Stories we can never know lie behind so many of these entries. Thanks again.
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1881 there's a William Kent b. Plymouth of about the right age enumerated as married aboard a fishing vessel called Firefly which was in Penzance harbour. RG11/2348 folio 163 pg 8 (think that's the ref)
James William Kent 87 died march qtr 1892 Plymouth vol 5b pg 268
Haven't spotted William as yet in 1901. There's a William F in Plymouth but he's a Trinity Pilot so don't think it's the same man.
Not sure that William did remarry, he may just be covering up. I'll have a little look though.
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found a possible but only way to be sure would be to get marriage cert, can't see it online.
William Kent & Harriet Bonathan East Stonehouse june qtr vol 5b pg 521
1881 census 6 Chapel St, Plymouth
Harriet Kent head mar 32 no occupation b. Buckfastleigh
Richard Bonathon son 12 b. Plymouth
death reg Harriet King 38 dec qtr 1886 vol 5b pg 165
:-\
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Trying to find the birth entry for the second grandson Frederick, to find his mother's maiden name. He's listed as 3yrs old in that 1871 census, but the only Frederick born in Devon is Frederick George born 1866 Dec qtr.
So could it be that our man William fathered another child who is called by his mother's surname on his birth certificate, but is being brought up by William and known as Frederick Kent?
This is seriously confusing!
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found a possible but only way to be sure would be to get marriage cert, can't see it online.
William Kent & Harriet Bonathan East Stonehouse june qtr vol 5b pg 521
1881 census 6 Chapel St, Plymouth
Harriet Kent head mar 32 no occupation b. Buckfastleigh
Richard Bonathon son 12 b. Plymouth
death reg Harriet King 38 dec qtr 1886 vol 5b pg 165
:-\
Interesting - the marriage is in 1881, after the census presumably, even though she's calling herself Kent
There's a William Kent around the right age, married, a fisherman on the Firefly
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marriage was June qtr and the census was3 April so they could have married 1 April. ::)
The William on the Firefly was mentioned a few replies back.
;)
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the Frederick from the 1871 census could be a child of one of William's siblings.
James Henry Kent married Elizabeth Harris 21 Sep 1851 - don't think he's theirs
Jane Ann Kent married Samuel John Brown 3 June 1866 - they're in London from 1881 onwards, don't think he's theirs
Frederick Augustus Kent married Susanna Punnett 21 Oct 1861, she was born Folkestone about 1843, I think, but can't see them after marriage.
Possible marriage for Elizabeth Kent to George Lamble june qtr 1868, they don't have a Frederick with them later.
Elinor is in Moon Street in 1871 RG10/2114 folio112 pg 27 with a daughter Maude birth registered dec qtr 1869 and death dec qtr 1879. Elinor married Samuel Goss dec qtr 1876, no Frederick with them later.
Still to find George born 1829 and Henry John born 1837
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Well, William Thomas' birth certificate has arrived.
Father's name William Kent, so that doesn't give us anything we didn't already know.
Address is 16 Russell Street, Plymouth - but I haven't found a census record for mother and baby in 1861, only the one previously mentioned for the father William and the older son Frederick.
She's not with William Landricome at that point, and I've still got no idea if they did ever get married.
An unsolved mystery, I suspect.
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Maureen found mother & baby in 1861 back in rely 7 on the first page, 46 Frankfort St, enumerated as Osborne, sister Priscilla Western with her. There isn't another Priscilla Western around so must be her.
;)
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Oh my, so she did!
I remember reading the original post and thinking, "That's so weird, can't be right".
That's taught me another lesson!
Tailoress, w of seaman (if I've read it properly) and married.
So, still married to William Kent, or is there a Mr Osborne in the mix now?
Or is she living as Osborne so her husband can't find her?
Deary me, what a complicated life young Jane lived!
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well, there may have been a Mr Osborne around or possibly at sea. It doesn't say wife of a fisherman. A place like Plymouth with a lot of sailors & their families coming and going is a good place for covering your tracks.
;D