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Census Lookups General Lookups => Census and Resource Discussion => Topic started by: methodmoran on Monday 19 June 17 02:53 BST (UK)
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Hi guys,
I wondered if anybody here would be willing to give their thought on a mystery I cant explain in the census records.
I am trying to trace 3 x Great Grandparents, William Smith and Marion Paterson.
According to the 1911 census, William was born around 1835 in Muirkirk, Ayr, Scotland.
As for his wife Marion, the 1891, 1901 and 1911 census have her being born between 1833 and 1835, in London.
There is marriage record in 1852 between a William Smith and a Marion Paterson registered in New Monkland,Lanark,Scotland. The oral tradition in the family was that side did infact come from Scotland so this fits and I know William was certainly born in Scotland.
They had my great great grandmother Annie in 1867, born in Consett, Durham and the family then settled in Jarrow, Tyneside.
Yet all the previous census records that seem to be William have him married to a Marion (same approx birth year), yet her place of birth pre-1891 is always given as Scotland.
The options I have in my mind at present are that I have the wrong pre-1891 couple, although the children all match. William re-married another Marion of the same age. Or Marion changed the place of birth on the later census records, which I cant explain.
Any help would or suggestions would be greatly appreciated as I am a novice with such things.
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Welcome to rootschat methodmoran. :)
I have a few questions I'm afraid. :)
Who is Marion living with in the pre 1891 censuses? Where is she living?
Which pre 1891 censuses do you have her on?
Do any of the censuses specify a precise place of birth in Scotland?
Do any of the censuses which give her place of birth as London, specify a parish or more precise area of London?
Do you know the names of your Marion's parents?
Without looking at the family on any census I can think of a couple of reasons for the different places of birth given (presuming William did not marry a second Marion) - such as Marion was born in London but went to Scotland when an infant so believed she was born there. The answers to the questions I've asked might clarify, otherwise I would only be speculating. :)
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Welcome from me too ;)
To follow on from Ruskie posting while I was thinking ;D...
"According to the 1911 census, William was born around 1835 in Muirkirk, Ayr, Scotland.
As for his wife Marion, the 1891, 1901 and 1911 census have her being born between 1833 and 1835, in London.
There is marriage record in 1852 between a William Smith and a Marion Paterson registered in New Monkland,Lanark,Scotland. The oral tradition in the family was that side did infact come from Scotland so this fits and I know William was certainly born in Scotland"
I have a theory & a couple of questions....
They seem very young when married i.e. depending on where her parents were born she may have assumed she was born same place?
My daughter was born in a different County from where I live & brought her up but when she was younger she assumed she was born in this Town/County. It's not something we give much thought to in reality when we're young.
The birth of your g g/mother in 1867 is very late from the time of marriage in 1852.
Have you established any births of any older siblings on census' or other?
Have you checked the births of all children for the occupation of William?
Do they all match as William & Smith are both very common names.
Are you sure you do have all 'their' children matching their places of birth on census' against their birth certs. with Dad's Occ. against census'?
Annie
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I forgot to ask...can you give the names of children you have in order from eldest to youngest with names/dates/places of birth please as Scots had a naming pattern often used which may help to work out William & Marion's parentage?
Annie
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Are you sure Marion's surname was PATERSON? I can't see any Annie SMITH (or similar) registered in Durham in 1867 with that mother's maiden name. ???
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Hi Annie. As the OP is off line I decided to have a quick look for the family in a couple of censuses. (The reason I asked the questions about the censuses was to save me going through pages of Smiths as the OP already has that information.) ;)
Anyway, I couldn't easily spot the family in 1871 or 1881 in England, which I find odd. I think I will wait till methodmoran returns before continuing the search.
:)
Added: the plot thickens maddys52. ;)
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Paterson is a Scottish surname is it not Annie?
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Maddy & Ruskie,
The surname itself puts me off searching, just as I'm put off searching for my own ancestry MacDonald ;D
However...
It crossed my mind, depending on the 'actual' info. on the census' (was it an OCR transcription or an actual copy)? & how it's been read/perceived, could this have been a mis-spelling of Loudoun, Ayrshire as London ???
Annie
Added...Got your 'Red Alert' Ruskie...Yes it is & I have the name Paterson in my own tree around Lanarkshire.
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Are you sure Marion's surname was PATERSON? I can't see any Annie SMITH (or similar) registered in Durham in 1867 with that mother's maiden name. ???
Maddy,
She may have been plain Ann/Anne & surname may have been misheard/misquoted, i.e. Paterson/Patterson/Pattison?
Annie
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Are you sure Marion's surname was PATERSON? I can't see any Annie SMITH (or similar) registered in Durham in 1867 with that mother's maiden name. ???
Maddy,
She may have been plain Ann/Anne & surname may have been misheard/misquoted, i.e. Paterson/Patterson/Pattison?
Annie
Hi Annie, yes I agree, though there are no registrations that I can see that are remotely similar? Hopefully methodmoran can fill us in with a bit more detail. :)
Btw, I'm not afraid of a SMITH or two, my grandfather was a William SMITH. ;D
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Just a thought - 1911 Census in England give the number of years married. Do they do the same in Scotland?
Jan
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From the GRO index
SMITH, ANN PATTERSON Order
GRO Reference: 1865 J Quarter in DURHAM Volume 10A Page 316
So 1865 <-------------------
Why use the census for her birthdate if you can check the GRO?
Marion Smith's death Durham Year 1913 Birth Year 1835 Age 78 Event Quarter
3, District South Shields
GRO
SMITH, MARION 78 Order
GRO Reference: 1913 S Quarter in SOUTH SHIELDS Volume 10A Page 864
Can't find any other marriage than the one in Scotland in 1852 either, does Marion's 1913 death certificate not give her parents names?
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Ah, methodmoran said Annie was born in 1867 so I was looking then, assuming she had the date right. Probably best to wait for methodmoran to get back to us with some answers to the questions asked. :)
Added:
This is probably the family in 1871 at Jarrow, Durham
William Smith 38 Scotland
Marian Smith 37 Scotland
Jesse Smith 17 Scotland
William Smith 15 Scotland
Alaxander Smith 13 Spenymoor, Durham
Bruce Smith 11 Elswicker, Yorkshire
Ann Smith 8 Berryedge, Durham
Isabelle Smith 3 Berryedge, Durham
James Smith 2 East Jarrow, Durham
GBC/1871/5035/0044
which makes more sense with the marriage date - Ann was not the eldest child.
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Marion Smith's death Durham Year 1913 Birth Year 1835 Age 78 Event Quarter
3, District South Shields
GRO
SMITH, MARION 78 Order
GRO Reference: 1913 S Quarter in SOUTH SHIELDS Volume 10A Page 864
Can't find any other marriage than the one in Scotland in 1852 either, does Marion's 1913 death certificate not give her parents names?
Death Certificates in England (& Wales) do not show family details. ::)
Only the name of the informant.
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Perhaps the Scottish marriage information is a better investment then ..... Jesse Smiths birth is only 2 years after the 1852 marriage. Wouldn't be the first family on here where the mother had babies spread over 17 years or more of marriage
In 1851 was Marion Patterson in the New Monkland, Lanarkshire census
-----> Is this her in Ayr based on a search for her age? On Scotlands People
PATTERSON, MARION 1851 census, age 19, 594/ 10/ 24, Girvan, Ayr
Muirkirk and Loundoun as mentioned above are not that far apart.
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Here's "Tam's Tree!" a Paterson website, U might just be lucky!
http://www.tompaterson.co.uk
Skoosh.
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Thanks for all of your comments.
No specifics are given for Marion's place of birth other than London.
William Smith occupation:
1891 I think it says Iron Worker
1901 Shingler Puddling
1911 Shingler Puddling
According to the 1891 census the children are as follows:
Annie Smith b. abt 1868, Consett, Durham
James Smith b. abt. 1873. Jarrow
Marion Smith b. 1874. Jarrow
Robert Smith b. 1877. Jarrow
There are also two grandchildren, John Burnip (Jarrow, 1879) and Roland Smith (Jarrow, 1887)
According to the 1901 census the children are as follows:
James Smith b. abt 1871, Jarrow
Robert Smith b. abt 1880, Jarrow
According to the 1911 census the children are as follows:
William Smith b. abt 1855, Scotland
Alec Smith b abt 1862, Speemore
Anna Bray (Smith) b. abt. 1864, no place of birth. This is Annie, my 3 x great grandmother
Bruce Smith b. abt 1866, Yorkshire, England
James Smith b. abt 1871, Jarrow
Robert Smith b. abt 1879, Jarrow
Marion Lebland (Smith) b. 1877, Jarrow
Bella Jones (Smith) b. abt. 1869, no place of birth
For the census records from before this that I think are them.
1871
William Smith abt 1833, Scotland. Shingler in Iron Works
Marian Smith abt 1834, Scotland
Jesse Smith abt 1854, Scotland
William Smith abt 1856, Scotland
Alaxander Smith abt 1858, Spennymore, Durham
Bruce Smith abt. 1860, Elswicker, Yorkshire
Ann Smith abt. 1863, Berry Edge, Durham
Isabella Smith abt. 1868. Berry Edge, Durham
James Smith abt. 1869, East Jarrow
1881
William Smith. b abt 1834 Scotland, occupation I think says Iron Puddlor although its not clear.
Marion Smith b abt 1835 Scotland.
Jessie Smith b abt 1856 Scotland
Alex Smith b abt 1861 Scotland
Hannah Smith b abt 1864 Conset, Durham. I think this is Annie.
James Smith b abt 1871 Jarrow
Eliz. Smith b abt 1872 Jarrow
Marion Smith b abt 1874 Jarrow
Robert Smith b abt 1877 Jarrow
William Smith b abt 1879 Jarrow
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Iron Puddler, very hard furnace work!
Skoosh.
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Ah, methodmoran said Annie was born in 1867 so I was looking then, assuming she had the date right.
I always think it's best if date is not proven to use 'c' (circa) so researchers are aware it's only a rough guide as a positive year given implies it's known & fact.
Annie
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Think they may be in Nether Hoyland, Yorkshire in 1861, though Marion is down as Maria.
Isobel
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I think you are right Isobel. I dont know where to try and find details about Marion before her marriage, in London or Scotland.
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So the original image of Marion Patterson's marriage on Scotlandspeople gives no clues at all?
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I am using Ancestry and they dont have the image. Just the transcribed record.
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You can set up a Scotlandspeople account for free, searches are free. Just a week ago I could have told you how to get free credits and we could have opened the original image!
I've found Ancestry not very good for Scottish ancestors
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/ is the only place to see the original image and if no one else has looked at it then no one can tell you the answer.
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For the children using new GRO index (England only)
Alexander 1859 Durham mmn Paterson
Bruce 1862 Barnsley Union mmn Patterson
Ann 1865 Durham mmn Patterson
Isabella 1868 Durham mmn Paterson (same as Bella on later census)
James 1871 South Shields mmn Patterson
Marion 1874 South Shields mmn Paterson
Robert 1877 South Shields mmn Paterson
William 1879 South Shields no mothers maiden name listed most likely Illegitimate son of an older daughter
There is a William 1855 Berwick Upon Tweed Northumberland mmn Patterson
that may belong to the family as it's so close to the Scottish border.
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According to Familysearch, their son William was born in Old Monkland, Lanarkshire on 13th Jan 1856. What a shame he wasn't born in 1855 as the certificates in that year showed place of birth of both parents.
I have had a look at the marriage as I had a few of my free credits left. Unfortunately not very helpful as pre civil registration.
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Here is William Smith in SP
SMITH
WILLIAM
M
1856
652/3 31
Old Monkland (Eastern District)
Could Jesse Smith c 1854 be born nearby
Could she be Jessie/Janet/Jean/Jane?
Maybe they didn't bother baptising or registering her as her birth was before the 1854 Act and the first 1855 Register?
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According to the census Jesse was born in Scotland.
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I'm curious as to what 'Both AG' on the marriage means?
I have only ever seen OTP (Of this Parish) so what is 'AG'?
Annie
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According to the census Jesse was born in Scotland.
This has been noted...
1871
Jesse Smith abt 1854, Scotland
1881
Jessie Smith b abt 1856 Scotland
Old Monkland (Eastern District)
Could Jesse Smith c 1854 be born nearby
Annie
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I'm curious as to what 'Both AG' on the marriage means?
I have only ever seen OTP (Of this Parish) so what is 'AG'?
Annie
Yes, I wondered about this too.
Isobel