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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Davo59 on Tuesday 20 June 17 04:44 BST (UK)
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Hi
Have located my wife's family in both the 1901 and 1911 Irish census.
In both the 1901 and 1911 census household returns - head of family is Catherine Duffy. (My wife's grandmother). I am unable to locate my wife's grandfather Hugh Duffy in any of the household return forms. There are a number of Hugh Duffys in the census but they do not fit with either his age and or his county of birth. (Louth)
However on the House & Building return for both census he is listed as Landholder. At the 1901 census he would have been approx 42.
I was wondering if anyone had any ideas.
Thanks
David
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You haven't given links to the census records that you did find or many details (location of family in 1901 and 1911, etc.).
Is this your Catherine Duffy?
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Louth/Drummullagh/Tullaghomeath/1558115
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Louth/Drummullagh/Tullyomeath/575789
Tulloghmeath is in Dundalk Poor Law Union/Registration District.
Henry Duffy born 1904- his birth certificate lists father Hugh without a separate location-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1905/01796/1704754.pdf
Son Andrew born after last census- same details for father-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1912/01493/1607153.pdf
Daughter Katie born 1910- probably the Winifred in 1911 census-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1910/01561/1630550.pdf
Julia born 1901-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1901/01934/1748427.pdf
Son Hugh John born 1908-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1908/01646/1657424.pdf
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Sorry aghadowey.
Yes this is her. I have traced all the the children and Hugh and Catherine through civil and church records though there appear to be gaps in the church records for Carlingford and Omeath. Hugh John was my wife's father and emigrated to New Zealand in 1925.
As far as I am aware Hugh lived all his life in Tullaghomeath and find it strange that he was not listed in the household return forms as head of family.
He may have been out of the country on the night of the census dates but wonder if there could be some other explanation.
Thanks
David
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Hello,
There is a Hugh Duffy, born Louth, in 1911 UK census.
We aren't allowed to post details but it might be worth checking if you have not already done so.
Unfortunately though I don't think it will confirm anything :-\
Regards
Heywood
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Thanks heywood
Have checked both the 1901 and 1911 UK census and nothing stands out for follow up.
Thanks
David
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Hello,
There is a Hugh Duffy, born Louth, in 1911 UK census.
We aren't allowed to post details but it might be worth checking if you have not already done so.
Unfortunately though I don't think it will confirm anything :-\
Regards
Heywood
Age 48 so born 1863-
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWMS-DCH
Possibly the same one in 1901-
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9G4-DNG
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Any chance he spent some of the year as a fisherman?
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http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Fermanagh/Enniskillen_East/Townhall_Street/516136/
? ?
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Sorry.. looked up Henry not Hugh!!
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Age 48 so born 1863-
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWMS-DCH
Possibly the same one in 1901-
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9G4-DNG
Have you posted the right one there for 1901, Aghadowey? Nothing matches up apart from the name. :-\
I posted the 1911 one because of the couple of similarities and thought him worth consideration even though there may be nothing to connect.
I can't see another Hugh in Louth of a similar age nor, unfortunately, can I be sure of the other person with him in the census although the surname and place has a link with Hugh.
I have possibly found the other person though in 1901.
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Opps- thanks for pointing that out- have crossed off the 1901 one posted in error :-[
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OP, have you checked the local bridewells, hospitals and workhouses to see if there are inmates with roughly the correct age and initials? Also, might have been in army or navy?
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My first thought was that Hugh might be dead. I don't suppose he had a father named Hugh who may have been the landholder, hence the anomaly? :-\
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I can't see him in 1901 but now I would definitely consider Hugh in Cheltenham in 1911, despite the age difference.
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Certainly quite a mystery! I searched originally, and again this morning, for Hugh Duffy under initials in case he was in hospital, gaol, etc. but no close candidates (even just searching for H.D., Catholic, anywhere in Ireland and without searching with birthplace Louth.
Going by the birth certificates of the children, Hugh Duffy seems to be alive until at least 1912 and a farmer living in Tulla [Tullaghomeath]. However, in both census years he's not listed.
Hugh died in 1932 and residence listed as Tullyomeath.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1932/04872/4317674.pdf
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Yes I saw the death too Aghadowey so all seems ok there.
Maybe he is out fishing or collecting oysters that night or something similar.
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Thanks everyone for your thoughts on this.
Have rechecked his listed occupations - Marriage Certificate 1892 he was a shepherd. 11 children born between 1894 and 1913. On all birth certificates his occupation was listed as Farmer.
His father was Patrick Ardle Duffy.
Have also located him on Ireland Dog Licence registers 1921/22/23 where he registered a sheepdog. However unable to locate him prior to this nor any dogs registered by his wife. (Perhaps not all records have been digitised yet for that area.)
I guess that perhaps he was absent somewhere and did not want to be counted.
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Hi David,
Whilst agreeing with everything you say, i just want to offer my thoughts. I realise that it is all conjecture and you have dismissed the man in Cheltenham but here we go.
Looking at baptisms:
I can only see one Hugh around that time (there may be others which are not online) March 1859 son of Patrick and Mary.
This fits with the age you give for 1901 census and with the father's name of Patrick. I can see a child Ardle amongst the several children to Patrick and Mary.
Hugh married Catherine Elmore - father Henry, deceased, Fishmonger.
Witness Peter Rice and William (I think) Hagan.
These surnames are all local to the area and are plentiful - this can be seen from others on the same page in fact.
Catherine's mother was Ellen Hagan, I think.
There is a Matthew O'Hagan in Cheltenham in 1911 - indexes show he is born Carlingford.
There is a Matthew Hagan in 1901 in Lislea with a mother Mary.
Mathew O'Hagan is also in Cheltenham in 1891 - an Oyster dealer but I can't see him in 1901.
Baptisms show children born to Matthew and Mary Murphy including Matthew and a William.
There could be other Williams of course and the witness may not be a William.
As I said, it is conjecture but failing other sightings, I still think the 1911 Hugh is worth considering. Ages often vary in records so are not reliable.
With regard to the occupation, my grandfather is generally listed as a farmer in records but he was also a fisherman and a stone mason.
I just wanted you to see my reasoning.
Regards
Heywood
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Heywood thank you for your stating your reasons for considering the 1911 census.
On reflection it is possible this could be my Hugh Duffy which would explain why he was absent from the Irish census. I have also now rechecked the original copy of the census record and looked at the occupation code and birthplace code. Also there was one other piece of information which I missed completely the first time I looked and that was an entry under number of years married which was crossed out by the enumerator. This entry places his marriage within 2 years of his actual marriage.
So this is a definite possibility thank you.
1901 is proving to be more of a challenge.
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Just wondering ??? if the census was taken at lambing time Hugh as a shepherd was maybe out in the fields overnight.
The 1901 census was taken on 31st March 1901. The 1911 census was taken on 2 April 1911.
PS I know NOTHING about farming or lambing....
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Thanks David.
Unfortunately, as yet, there is nothing to prove it but there is much to consider that it is Hugh.
I have searched and searched but can't find him in 1901 yet.
Matthew O' Hagan is probably still at home in 1901 as Hagan. He marries later in Birkenhead and seems to have been quite successful in Cheltenham. That's of no consequence though. :)
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Thanks Josie - yes that is a possibility though I see the enumerator was a constable (RIC?) and presumably being from Omeath which is a small village with a surrounding farming area would have questioned why Hugh was not on the census or would have known that he was not present on the night. However a possibility.
Yes Heywood The O'Hagen / Hagen connection has got me intrigued. It could well be that Hugh may have been fisherman on the night of the 1901 census. I see there is a Form B3: Shipping return. This could be a challenge in itself as the The National Archives of Ireland website states
"In many cases the names of occupants are only given in initial form, ie Mary Smith is entered as M.S. These names are indexed by initial, and hopefully the information in the form itself (county of birth, occupation, marital status) will help to identify the person sought."
So will also explore this avenue of searching by initials in both the Irish and English census.
However without the discussion in this forum I would never have reached these continuing avenues to explore. Thank you.
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I did search in both 1901 and 1911 Irish census for Hugh Duffy under his initials, etc.