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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: kiwi2011 on Tuesday 27 June 17 10:40 BST (UK)
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Kindly make out the details of this Scottish birth record.
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Born 8 Aug 1879 4 am at 64
Drumfrechan [?] Drumfrochar Rd Greenock
Father William Mechan Sugarhouse labourer
Mother Eliza Mechan formerly Dowey
Parents married '1879 Jan[uar]y 2 Greenock'
Registered 19 Aug 1879 by Eliza [she made her mark] witness W[illia]m Johnston registrar
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Agree, except that I think maiden name of mother might be Dowie, or maybe Lowie
Also time of birth says 4 h(ours) am. Being a bit pedantic there!
Wiggy. ;)
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Agree Dowie, Wiggy & the time. Nothing wrong with pedantry, accuracy is an essential of family history ;D
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;) ;). Prem baby? ;D
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I have just found this baptism record which may help to confirm Eliza's maiden name?
Also, I see (i think) pm near his name, does that mean pre marriage?
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Does look like 'PM' and 'Lawful' is missing wouldn't have thought that a minister would start doing maths to work out conception date, parents were definitely married before Willam jnr's birth..
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Also confusing as Mother's maiden name now spelt Dowey. Probably just as the scribe heard it! So could have been either!
Sorry Josey and Kiwi2011, I was being facetious re date of birth. . . . . happens all the time with births!!
It is interesting that the word 'lawful' is absent after William's name but is present for all the others though.
Snap Josey
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author=Wiggy link=topic=773958.msg6272115#msg6272115 date=1498558444
Sorry Josey and Kiwi2011, I was being facetious re date of birth. . . . . happens all the time with births!!
I had toyed with posting some wry comment myself ;D
Kiwi2011 - does this 'PM' appear by any other baptisms? Is there another capital 'P' on the same page to compare?
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According to William's 1879 birth certificate the parents were married in Greenock in Jan 1879 but there is no matching marriage on SP.
Isobel
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Aha - perhaps a little fibbing going on here...perhaps William & Eliza were prepared to fib to the registrar but not the minister :-\
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Not uncommon for people to mis-remember the wedding date or move it back a bit before birth of first child ;)
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Just being modern unmarried but committed maybe! ;D
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Comme moi ;D ;D ;D
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Just being modern unmarried but committed maybe! ;D
Not really modern- this sort of thing has been going on for generations ;)
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Got some in my family 'being modern' in 1820! :) ;)
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According to William's 1879 birth certificate the parents were married in Greenock in Jan 1879 but there is no matching marriage on SP.
Isobel
Possibly spelling of Irish names making it more difficult to find the marriage on SP?
Mechan, Meechan, Meeckan, etc.
Dowie, Dowey, Doey, etc.
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Got some in my family 'being modern' in 1820! :) ;)
Mine went more for the 'prem' babies or 'deceased' fathers :o :o
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According to William's 1879 birth certificate the parents were married in Greenock in Jan 1879 but there is no matching marriage on SP.
Isobel
Possibly spelling of Irish names making it more difficult to find the marriage on SP?
Mechan, Meechan, Meeckan, etc.
Dowie, Dowey, Doey, etc.
I've tried using a few wildcards and also using just first names and nothing coming up.
Isobel
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According to William's 1879 birth certificate the parents were married in Greenock in Jan 1879 but there is no matching marriage on SP.
Isobel
Possibly spelling of Irish names making it more difficult to find the marriage on SP?
Mechan, Meechan, Meeckan, etc.
Dowie, Dowey, Doey, etc.
It doesn't make it easy, does it? :)
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Even the simplest of names seem to develop variations as soon as you start looking for them :(
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Have been looking on Scotlands People with just the first initial of bride and grooms names and found nothing.
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Scottish PO Directories
http://www.nls.uk/family-history/directories/post-office
Have checked "GREENOCK (65)" around the 1879/80 period under search keys "64 drumfrochar" or "mechan". No record of a "Mechan" (or similar) at No.64 but there are "Mechans" listed - unfortunately not a William.
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How about the online archive of the Greenock Telegraph?
Skoosh.
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I've been checking the "Greenock Telegraph and Clyde Shipping Gazette" via another source. Unfortunately, link has gone down
Did spot 2 apartments being advertised "To Let" from Whitsunday at 64 Drumfrochar Rd in the 8 March 1880 edition.
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They are living at 71 Regent Street, Greenock in 1881 ( surname Meighan on Ancestry). Can't find them in 1891, nor can I find a likely birth for Joseph in England.
Isobel
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Wonder whether Sugarbakers might have any reference to the sugarhouse William worked at?
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William Meechan, age 50, sugarhouse labourer, born Ireland is at 3 Broomhill Street, Greenock, in 1901 - still no clue to 12 yr old Joseph's birthplace ie. "England".
There was a sugar refinery in Drumfrochar Rd in 1879/80
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Sorry, a bit late spotting this one.
I have William on the database for both 81 and 01 censuses, but agree not 91 yet. (Will add the 1879 birth asap)
... Can't find them in 1891, nor can I find a likely birth for Joseph in England.
Might have been Liverpool, plenty of movement between there and Greenock regarding sugarhouse work.
Wonder whether Sugarbakers might have any reference to the sugarhouse William worked at?
I'd love to be able to tell you, but with no employee records surviving for any sugarhouses I can only suggest ...
In 1879 there would have been two refineries on Drumfrochar Road - Berryyards and Clyde.
For the earlier census reference where William was living in Regent St there were sugarhouses in Roxburgh St, Bogle St and two in Sugarhouse Lane, although those in Drumfrochar Rd would have been within easy walking distance.
For 1901, with Broomhill St adjoining Drumfrochar Rd, Berryyards would have been the closest to home as by then it was the only refinery in that road.
Image of Berryyards ... www.mawer.clara.net/refineries.html#green2
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Great you 'dropped by' ;D
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1891 ... not Liverpool ... not sugar.
1891 census 72 Ann St Greenock
William Meighan 39 Paper Mill Labourer
Elizabeth 38
William 11
Joseph 2
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Oh good find sugarbakers. Where is Joseph born?
AH only 'England' on ancestry transcription
Greenock West; ED: 45; Page: 24; Line: 6;
Also
Minnie Meighan 16 born Ireland daur
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... had to dig the spuds ...
Mine's from Anc as well, Josey - just 'England' - doubt the original says much more, but might be wrong.
<i>Added</i> ... No, original on SP says 'England'.
Minnie born Ireland suggests the marriage was in Ireland too.
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Minnie born Ireland suggests the marriage was in Ireland too.
It would, but they said on William's birth cert that they were married in 1879 Greenock but no marriage found. Perhaps Minnie was from an earlier marriage of William's... will have a look on rootsireland.ie when I get back from dentist [my, your spuds are early, sugarbakers!!]
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Only one Joseph showing up at right time in GRO ...
Joseph Mechan JunQ 1889 West Ham mmn McDonald
(certainly sugar labourers needed there then but ... mmn)
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Like isobelw [see reply #25] & sugarbakers I also can't find suitable birth. Have looked at MMN for all these variations, no variation of Dowey found. Also looked for Dowey births in case he was registered under mother's name.
Births Jun 1889
Meaghan Joseph Chester le S. 10a 532
Mechan Joseph W. Ham 4a 124
Births Sep 1889
Methven Joseph Frederick Farnham 2a 103
Births Mar 1890
Meachin Joseph Prestwich 8d 367
Births Jun 1890
MEAHAN Joseph Chorlton 8c 873
MEEHAN Joseph Bolton 8c 478
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Kiwi2011 - does this 'PM' appear by any other baptisms? Is there another capital 'P' on the same page to compare?
[/quote]
Josey requested this. Please note the P.F. and P.M.
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Oh good find sugarbakers. Where is Joseph born?
AH only 'England' on ancestry transcription
Greenock West; ED: 45; Page: 24; Line: 6;
Also
Minnie Meighan 16 born Ireland daur
Well spotted Josey re Joseph was born in England. Wouldn't you think it's then safe to assume that this is the same family and the DOBs are close?
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Hmm,
Trying to make sense of P.F.P.M.....
Parents Foreign Presumed Married ;D
Annie
Added..Can't be as the rest have 'Lawful' ???
Proven Fornication Pre Marriage (for the 'Lawful' ones)...Pre Marriage (if marriage not proven) ???
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Noting the dates, I wonder if it is some sort of short hand for having been baptised apart from a service . . .
or maybe entered into the register at a later date . . Though I can't think what the initials stand for. :-\
Wiggy
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Trying to make sense of P.F.P.M.....
Protestant Father, Protestant Mother ?
What's the denomination of the church where he was baptised ?
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William was baptised at St. Mary's Catholic church Greenock. He was born 08 Aug 1879 yest baptized 10 Mar 1880.
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William was baptised at St. Mary's Catholic church Greenock.
So in the baptism record for William Mechan, P.M. might stand for Protestant Mother, implying that his father was Catholic.
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Thanks Boolbox, maybe I'll post the image on Scotlands forum.
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So in the baptism record for William Mechan, P.M. might stand for Protestant Mother, implying that his father was Catholic.
That would make perfect sense & good lateral thinking! ;)
Annie
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Re: reply #35, Josey kindly advise what MMN means. Thanks
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Mother's Maiden Name :)
On Scottish records it may appear as MS = Maiden Surname
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So I think I may have found the wedding record for William Mechan's parents but it's a mystery wrapped in a riddle.
The parents are shown as William Meechan and Elizabeth Hendry (widow). Could Hendry be Elizabeth's married name?
The name Hendry shows up in William's daughter's name i.e., Mary Hendry Borthwick Meechan born 1908.
Elizabeth Hendry's parents name is McDonnell? which does not tie in but her mother - Helen ms name looks like it could be Loirie or Dowie?
Another common thing is the witness: Agness Foley. This is the same witness for William's baptism in 1880 and his parents potential marriage in 1884.
What do you think?
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Hi
It looks as if her mother's maiden name might be Dowie
Gadget
Added - not read the whole thread but think the PF could be Putative Father :-\
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That's a good thought Gadget
(. . . but presumably PM isn't putative mother . . . unless the child was found on a doorstep maybe. :-\ ;))
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Then what about P.M. Can there be a putative mother? Oh, now I see the comment above. But there's an instance where there's P.M. P.F.
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Then what about P.M. Can there be a putative mother? Oh, now I see the comment above.
Most likely for PM is Pre Matrimony. One of the sites that I read maintained that the priest/clerks just used their own abbreviations and they seemed not to be standardized. I looked at quite a few sites yesterday and can't remember which one :-\
Have you got death certs for any of them?
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Only one Joseph showing up at right time in GRO ...
Joseph Mechan JunQ 1889 West Ham mmn McDonald
(certainly sugar labourers needed there then but ... mmn)
Just picking this up as it's so close to McDonnell.
So Elizabeth was at various times Dowie/Dowey, McDonnell and Hendry. Have you found a marriage for a Dowey or McDonnell (variations) and a Hendry?
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Then what about P.M. Can there be a putative mother? Oh, now I see the comment above.
Most likely for PM is Pre Matrimony. One of the sites that I read maintained that the priest/clerks just used their own abbreviations and they seemed not to be standardized.
Gadget, as you say you haven't read the whole thread, I'm just wondering if you've seen the suggestion in replies 40-44 regarding P. M.?
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Then what about P.M. Can there be a putative mother? Oh, now I see the comment above.
Most likely for PM is Pre Matrimony. One of the sites that I read maintained that the priest/clerks just used their own abbreviations and they seemed not to be standardized.
Gadget, as you say you haven't read the whole thread, I'm just wondering if you've seen the suggestion in replies 40-44 regarding P. M.?
Yes, I read it yesterday but I didn't think it fitted with the other information - e.g. lawful and why would Protestant Father and Mother have children baptised in an RC church and a few other reasons but it's late now.
Youd need to find the info on the other baptisms to check. Also, the 1884 marriage was an RC one. Was Elizabeth protestant?
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Before I finally go to sleep - the PM (pre marital/matrimonial) but no 'lawful' written in would fit with the later marriage in 1884.
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I'm actually wondering why Elizabeth is not indexed under both her previous marital surname & her maiden surname?
She should actually be indexed under both surnames with the same reference number next to her husband William Mechan's entry ???
I also checked the Catholic records with no result ::)
Only 1 entry;
MECHAN WILLIAM HENDRY ELIZABETH 1884
564/3 161
Greenock Old or West
It may be worth an email to SP to enquire about it as the marriage states she was a widow but then again she may have avoided the truth on that?
However, that shouldn't have altered both surnames being on the index simply because of the fact she's down as a 'Widow' at the time of her marriage to William ???
Annie
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Elizabeth appears to have died in Greenock in 1916. Her death is indexed under Hendry, McDonnell and Mechan on SP.
Isobel
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So a first marriage to Robert Hendry, police constable. I've had a quick look but not found so far -Ireland or Scotland.
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Oh good find sugarbakers. Where is Joseph born?
AH only 'England' on ancestry transcription
Greenock West; ED: 45; Page: 24; Line: 6;
Also
Minnie Meighan 16 born Ireland daur
Just wondering about this one now we have a previous spouse:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGZH-C2R
June 1875 Mary Ann Henry Parents - Robert Henry and Eliza Dowey
Hendry = Henry :-\
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Only one Joseph showing up at right time in GRO ...
Joseph Mechan JunQ 1889 West Ham mmn McDonald
(certainly sugar labourers needed there then but ... mmn)
Just picking this up as it's so close to McDonnell.
So the West Ham birth now looks much more likely. The birth cert should produce an occupation for William, alternatively a kind person with a SEAX subscription may be able to find a baptism for Joseph ... might be an idea to put a request on the Essex board.
Whilst West Ham seems a very long way from Greenock, timing is everything ...
We know William was employed in sugar refineries in Greenock in 1879 and 1881.
By 1881 the Greenock refiner Abram Lyle had decide to build a new refinery on the banks of the Thames at Silvertown in Essex and regarding employees it was a matter of recruiting from those he knew.
<i>"Alexander (Lyle), the eldest (son), was given the task of recruiting a nucleus staff of sugarhouse men in Greenock and persuading them to venture south. A trainload of them eventually arrived at Canning Town station and they walked with their families, a wild and very rough procession, through the mud and under the leafless trees to Silvertown about Christmas-time in 1882."</i> (The Plaistow Story - Lyle)
Given the 1884 marriage that Annie has found maybe William was not one of those pioneers, but the refinery expanded rapidly and Greenock men would have been regularly brought south. Perhaps it did not work out for William and his family as they were back in Greenock by 1891, but there seems good reason to investigate further in Essex.
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Birth entry - Robert's occupation described as 'labourer'
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That fits with the FS one, Isobel :)
Son, William, was the informant on Eliza/Elizabeth's death cert - I wonder how he came to think first husband was a policeman. Family stories, maybe.
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Thank you so much to everyone, you've given me some great information to work on.
I did contact SP and asked about P.F. P.M. and they responded saying:
"I would say this is PF Protestant father / PM Protestant mother.
It is sometimes written out in full and I have seen it as mo prot too."
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Thanks for the update, kiwi2011.
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I thought I'd replied yesterday but obviously I didn't.
I had assumed that the baptisms were of children and it was only after I'd examined a few pages that I saw that most of the PF PMs were adult baptisms. This made me think that Bookbox's interpretation was most probably correct and the majority of them were most likely conversions to RC.
I tried to find a similar entry for Elizabeth before the 1884 marriage (according to forms of RC ) but haven't found anything so far. Would she have been expected to convert before the RC marriage in those days?
Gadget
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Oh good find sugarbakers. Where is Joseph born?
AH only 'England' on ancestry transcription
Greenock West; ED: 45; Page: 24; Line: 6;
Also
Minnie Meighan 16 born Ireland daur
Just wondering about this one now we have a previous spouse:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGZH-C2R
June 1875 Mary Ann Henry Parents - Robert Henry and Eliza Dowey
Hendry = Henry :-\
Do you know why can't I find this on Rootsireland?
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Just wondering about this one now we have a previous spouse:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGZH-C2R
June 1875 Mary Ann Henry Parents - Robert Henry and Eliza Dowey
Hendry = Henry :-\
Do you know why can't I find this on Rootsireland?
Not sure but Isobel has the full entry:
Birth entry - Robert's occupation described as 'labourer'
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Birth entry - Robert's occupation described as 'labourer'
Can you read the name of the town that Henry and Eliza are living at? TX
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I found it on the irishgenealogy.ie website ( free to view). Looked for Mary Henry born 1875 in Ballymena. It is the first of the three entries that come up and is right at the bottom of the page. I think place of birth is Ballymenstra, Ahoghill.
Isobel
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Pedantic I know but ::) - indeed it reads Ballymenstra in column 1 but Ballyminstra in columns 4 & 6. I have done a fair number of transcriptions of these civil records and we are told to take the place name as in column 1, even if different elsewhere.
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Do you think this could be the marriage of Eliza Dowie/McDonnell and Robert Hendry/Henry?
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Ooooh good find!!
Donay could easily be a mis-transcribed Dowey. Never seen 2 female witnesses to a marriage before....
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Looks like you've found it :D
Interesting that Eliza/beth's father is now James Donay not McDonnell - possibly she was asked for her father's name and she maybe said 'James', Also he's listed as labourer rather than farmer. No proof needed in those days!
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Irishgenealogy.ie have that 1872 marriage listed under Eliza Donay AND Eliza Douay.
Isobel
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Perhaps Elizabeth was originally Dowie - she may have been the daughter of Helen Dowie who married James McDonnell when Elizabeth was very young? Or am I losing the plot here ;D
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Irish Genealogy has the death of a Robert Henry, aged 42, Belfast 3rd Q, 1884. - a possible and might explain why the marriage to William was delayed.
Gadget
PS - Rosie, I thought that a couple of days ago so you're not losing the plot ;D