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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Anglesey => Topic started by: beckwith on Wednesday 28 June 17 17:41 BST (UK)
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I am researching my family tree and have come to a brick wall with a branch of the family.
Catherine Grace Williams born in Bangor in 1853. Her father was Richard Williams born 1823 or 1825, both Richards being born in Llanerchymedd Anglesey
Richard became a shoemaker. In the 1861 census he was a widower. Catherine was 7 yrs old. Her mother was Jane Williams nee Williams.I have a copy of her birth cert She died just before the census in 1861
1871 census Catherine was a lodger in someones house
1881 census she was living with her father and Jane, so he must have married another Jane
I want to know which was the correct Richard so that I can look for one of the two sets of parents
Catherine was an only child, she married William Parry in1882 and had 4 children Jeannie,Catherine Grace, Margaret and Richard
I would be so grateful if someone could help me
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Is this the family in 1891 living Holywell, Flintshire :-\
William Parry 37 bn Bangor
Catherine G Parry 37 bn Bangor
Jane Parry 7 bn Bangor
Margaret Parry 3 bn Bangor
Catherine Parry 11 months bn Caernarvon
RG12/4605 f76 p4
In 1861
Richard Williams 38 bn Llanerchymedd, Anglesey (Shoemaker 6 men in employ)
Catherine G Williams 7 bn Bangor
Mary Parry 17 bn Bangor (Servant)
RG9/ 4351 f14 p22
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Could this be him in 1851 - Amlwch :-\
John Williams 67 Shoemaker bn Llanerchymedd, Anglesey
Elizabeth Williams 65 bn Llanbedrbed, Anglesey
William Williams 40 bn Llanerchymedd, Anglesey
Margret Williams 25 bn Llanerchymedd, Anglesey
Richard Williams 22 bn Llanerchymedd, Anglesey
H0107/2521 f385 p4
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Hi is the family this in 1871 census, as transcribed?
Richard Williams 48 occ Boot & Shoemaker b Anglesey
JOYCE 48 b Bangor
E G 17 daughter b Bangor
Residing at High Street, Bangor
Census ref RG10/5727/32/23
Keyboard86
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One candidate dies in 1866 aged 37.
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4448506/4448511/29/
Regards
Roger
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There was a marriage on 1 Sep 1848 at Capel Evan (or Ifan), Llanerchymedd with the following details:
Richard Williams, f, bachelor, shoemaker of Llanerchymedd, Amlwch, son of John Williams, shoemaker married Jane Williams, f, spinster of Llanerchymedd, Rhodogeidio, dau of Evan Williams, machine maker.
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Cambrian News, 26 May 1882
PARRY- WILLIAMS. May 9th, at Twrgwyn Chapel, Upper Bangor, by the Rev. John Williams Llanerchymedd, uncle of the bride, Mr William Parry, station master, Menai Bridge, to Miss C G Williams. only daughter ot Mr Richard Williams, boot and shoemaker, 314, High-street.
Question is which side is the reverend uncle?
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y Genedl Cymreig 1st February 1888
IMPORTANT TO BOOTMAKERS AND OTHERS. TO BE DISPOSED OF, as a going concern, the House and Shop and Stock-in-Trade of the late Mr Richard Williams, 314, High. street Bangor. Established 1849. Good Country Connection, and Shop centrally situated, commanding one of the most populous districts in Bangor
1881 Richard, Jane and Catherine are at 314 High St. he's b 1823
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1885 - Richard publishes a notice which denies responsibility for any debts of his wife "Joice" after 14 July
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richard dies 2 Jan 1888. Catherine grace Parry is his executirx
This is his second marriage, i believe
baner ac Amserau Cymru 5 Feb 1862
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4259258/4259263/19/
translates as
On the 28th [of January] st St Asaph, Mr. Richard Williams, Boot and Shoe Maker, Dean street, Bangor, and Miss Joyce Ellis, Llandulas, formerly of Fair View, Bangor.
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Also a family notice for the death on 31 Jan 1861 of Jane, wife of Richard Williams, shoemaker, of Dean St, Bangor, aged 32
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There was a marriage on 1 Sep 1848 at Capel Evan (or Ifan), Llanerchymedd with the following details:
Richard Williams, f, bachelor, shoemaker of Llanerchymedd, Amlwch, son of John Williams, shoemaker married Jane Williams, f, spinster of Llanerchymedd, Rhodogeidio, dau of Evan Williams, machine maker.
This appears to be Jane Williams and family in 1841 at part of Wheatsheaf Inn(?), Rhodogeidio, Llanerchymedd. (HO107/1360/13/4/3)
Evan Williams, 50, W. Machin m (unclear), n
Grace, 20, y
William, 15, Shoem. Ap, y
Thomas, 15, Shoem., y
Jane, 13, y
According to their death registrations Evan Williams died 18 Mar 1851 aged 63, he was described as a joiner, and Grace Williams died 2 Jan 1851, both at Rhodogeidio, Llanerchymedd.
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Some more data,and another question:-
I think Richard is by himself in Malthouse Street,Bangor(same page as Dean Street) in 1851
HO107/2518/238/14
I think Jane is a married visitor in the house of William Morris,Bridge Street,Rhodogeidio,and she has a daughter Grace given born 1850 in Bangor.
HO107/2520/466/4
What happened to Grace?Early death?
Regards
Roger
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Grace died Dec.1852,Dean Street,Bangor.
I think Richard's birth still needs tracing?
Regards
Roger
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1885 - Richard publishes a notice which denies responsibility for any debts of his wife "Joice" after 14 July
Hi just for reference, what happened to the Joyce/Jane aged 48 b Bangor RG10/5727/32/23, OP suggests Catherine G is elsewhere in 1871, unless on two returns I believe she is the transcribed E G Williams aged 17 b Bangor with Richard/Joyce on this ref.
Keyboard86
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richard dies 2 Jan 1888. Catherine grace Parry is his executirx
This is his second marriage, i believe
baner ac Amserau Cymru 5 Feb 1862
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4259258/4259263/19/
translates as
On the 28th [of January] st St Asaph, Mr. Richard Williams, Boot and Shoe Maker, Dean street, Bangor, and Miss Joyce Ellis, Llandulas, formerly of Fair View, Bangor.
Joyce aged 28 Unmarried/Visitor occ Annuitant b Bangor with what appears to be her married mother Lucy aged 66 occ Mariners Wife b Conway at "Fair View" Ambrose Street, Bangor in 1851 census
Census ref HO107/2518/263/3
And still at "Fair View" in 1841 census aged 15 with possible brother Owen Ellis aged 25
Census ref HO107/1398/ 2/56 / 24
Her baptism looks to be:-
Joyce Ellis 16th November 1822 Bangor Father William occ Mariner Mother Lucy abode Fairmynydd
Keyboard86
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There's a Joyce Williams b c1828 who dies Q1 1903 in Bangor - can;t see any signs between the 1885 item and then
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There's a Joyce Williams b c1828 who dies Q1 1903 in Bangor - can;t see any signs between the 1885 item and then
The only Joyce I can locate in 1901 census is a Joyce Williams 77 Widow occ Lodging House Keeper b Bangor with a John Jones 26 occ Shoemaker b Llanberis at Summer Hill, Holyhead
Census ref RG13/5299/6/3
Keyboard86
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With his father named as John,it rules out the 1823 and 1825 non-con Llanerchymedd records.
Richard(1829),son of John of Market Square Amlwch is unmarried in 1851 and is probably the one that died in 1866 as per the newspaper report.
There is a Richard(1826),a shoemaker, in the 1841 census,son of Grace of Twrcelyn Street,Amlwch,but he's still there in 1851.
There may be options at www.bmdregisters.co.uk but I don't have access.
Regards
Roger
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Cambrian News, 26 May 1882
PARRY- WILLIAMS. May 9th, at Twrgwyn Chapel, Upper Bangor, by the Rev. John Williams Llanerchymedd, uncle of the bride, Mr William Parry, station master, Menai Bridge, to Miss C G Williams. only daughter ot Mr Richard Williams, boot and shoemaker, 314, High-street.
Question is which side is the reverend uncle?
Just wondering if this is the Rev John Williams in 1881 census?
John Williams 54 occ Calvinistic Methodist Minister b Llanerchymedd
A Visitor to Neville House, Mostyn Street, Llandudno, Conway
Census ref RG11/5583/72/26
Keyboard86
EDIT If him, looks to be the John Williams 35 occ Minister with the Calvanistic b Llanerchymedd with wife Margaret 34 and son William in 1861
Census ref RG09/4363/9/12
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Excellent find,but can't make anything more of it at the moment!
Regards
Roger
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Not that it helps but I think the following is the marriage of Rev. John Williams in 1858.
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4256237/4256252/58/
Regards
Roger
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I have details of the burial of my great-great grandfather, (Llaneugrad) in 1885. The officiating cleric on both pages of the register is the Rev. John Williams. First entry is dated 1883 and the last on this page is dated 1887. The vicar of Llanerchymedd had jurisdiction of five parishes, including Llaneugrad.
regards.
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Hi Everyone
You have all been fantastic. I now know when Richard and Jane were married, when she died and that he married Joyce in 1862. The info from the newspapers was wonderful. Catherine Grace was married to William Parry and they did live in Holywell
Jane died in 1853 and I have a copy of the probate when Richard was her next of kin. seven years later 1861 census Catherine G is 7. Jane died in the January
Richards birth is still not clear I am working on it.At least I now know his father was John and Janes father was Evan. There were a lot of shoemakers about !!!
Thank you so much for all your help in what is correct and what can't be correct!!!
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Given that Grace was Jane's mother,there must be a reasonable chance that a Catherine(or similar) was the mother of Richard(and,also,of course,his brother John)
I've started looking through the Calvinistic Chapels,on FamilySearch,in the area of Llanerchymedd and Amlwch as below,but so far without success.
http://www.archersoftware.co.uk/igi/fs-agy.htm
Regards
Roger
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Not that it helps but I think the following is the marriage of Rev. John Williams in 1858.
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4256237/4256252/58/
Regards
Roger
Hi again, would really like to clear this John Williams up as being " Uncle" to the bride Catherine G Parry nee Williams
In 1871 he is 43 occ Calvanistic Minister b Llanerchymedd, Margaret 42 b Llanerchymedd William 10 b Llanallyo and Ann 4 b Llanerchymedd
Residing at Red House, Rhodogedio, Anglesey
Census ref RG10/5745/36/5
Where was he 1841/51 possibly in 1841 at Llanerchymedd aged 15 with amongst others a Jane Williams aged 30
Census ref HO107/1360/ 3/3 / 10
Keyboard86
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This is a report of the Rev John Williams' death aged 85 in 1910
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3783551/3783553/13/
It notes he was b November 1825 in Llanerchymedd, the youngest of 11 children of a family of low and general background. seven died young, but he survived along with Jane, Hugh and Richard. Sadly doesn;t give his parents names, but his father died when he was young, and he fell into bad company before finding God
he married twice, the second Mrs Williams dying in 1907. The list of family mourners includes a Mrs Parry of Caernarfon. It suggests the first Mrs Williams was a Miss Lewis, as the sons of his brother in law from that marriage (both Lewises) were in attendance
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Hi that looks good, with the Mrs Parry reference?
The only one I can locate of a John Williams in similar trade/vocation in 1901 is:-
John Williams 75 occ C M Minister
Mary 67
Matthew W Clark 20 Boarder
Residing at 20, Glanhwfa Road, Llangefni?
Keyboard86
EDIT I see the newspaper report refers to Llangefni?
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There are 1813 and 1815 non-con Llanerchymedd baptism records for a Hugh and Jane Williams respectively,children of John Williams of Ynys Bach Llandyfrydog and his wife Anne.Looking for John and Richard..
Regards
Roger
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There are 1813 and 1815 non-con Llanerchymedd baptism records for a Hugh and Jane Williams respectively,children of John Williams of Ynys Bach Llandyfrydog and his wife Anne.Looking for John and Richard..
Regards
Roger
In 1851 there is a Richard Williams 48 b Llanerchymedd
Margaret Parry Wife
Annie Williams 9
Margaret 4
Elizabeth 2
Residing at Ty Bach, Llangadwaladr?
Census ref HO107/2520/210/11
Keyboard86
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In 1851 Richard is in Bangor.I can't find a Richard or John record indicating the same family as the Hugh and Jane.
Regards
Roger
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In 1851 Richard is in Bangor.I can't find a Richard or John record indicating the same family as the Hugh and Jane.
Regards
Roger
What is age/census ref for Richard in Bangor?
Keyboard86
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1851 ref. HO107/2518/238/14-Malthouse Street,shoemaker,aged 28,born Amlwch.
It is still possible,I think,that the Rev John is a brother of Richard's wife.
Regards
Roger
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Hi that looks good, with the Mrs Parry reference?
The only one I can locate of a John Williams in similar trade/vocation in 1901 is:-
John Williams 75 occ C M Minister
Mary 67
Matthew W Clark 20 Boarder
Residing at 20, Glanhwfa Road, Llangefni?
Keyboard86
EDIT I see the newspaper report refers to Llangefni?
yes, it looks like he settled in Llangefni in his later years, although still active in the chapel circuits, preaching just a fortnight before his death
think the family were Calvinist Methodists
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Not that it helps but I think the following is the marriage of Rev. John Williams in 1858.
http://newspapers.library.wales/
view/4256237/4256252/58/
Regards
Roger
OK just back tracking, this suggests that Margaret was a Williams not Lewis?
Marriage of John to Mary pre 1901?
Keyboard86
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Going back to the "uncle" status - looking at Jane Williams in 1841(HO107/1360/13/4/3),there is no sign of siblings Hugh,Richard or John.Not definitive of course,but suggestive that Rev John is Richard's brother.
Regards
Roger
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Going back to the "uncle" status - looking at Jane Williams in 1841(HO107/1360/13/4/3),there is no sign of siblings Hugh,Richard or John.Not definitive of course,but suggestive that Rev John is Richard's brother.
Regards
Roger
Also the 1841 I posted with a Jane 30 and John 15 in Llanerchymdd
HO107/1360/ 3/3 / 10?
Keyboard86
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Are you saying your ref. is for John and Jane,possible brother and sister of Richard?
dragonT's data on the 1848 marriage had Jane(Richard's wife) as of Rhodogeidio with father Evan as machine maker(?),which seemed to fit the ref. I quoted for 1841.
Regards
Roger
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There are 1813 and 1815 non-con Llanerchymedd baptism records for a Hugh and Jane Williams respectively,children of John Williams of Ynys Bach Llandyfrydog and his wife Anne.Looking for John and Richard..
Regards
Roger
I based it on this?
Keyboard86
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Returning to the marriage of John and Jane Williams at Llanerchymedd in 1848, I've searched for more information on their parents. Assuming the 1841 census previously posted for Jane with father Evan is correct, there are a series of baptisms (but not Jane's) which show that her mother's name was Catherine.
Baptisms at Ceidio/Rhodogeidio with father Evan Williams, a Winnowing Machine maker (and Innkeeper in 1817), mother Catherine, living at Llanerchymedd:
John - 28 Sep 1817
Grace - 25 Feb 1820
William Morris - 15 Nov 1821
Thomas - 29 Oct 1823
It seems Jane also had a sister Anne as there is a marriage:
Anne Williams, f, s, of Llanerchymedd, Llechgynfarwyd, dau of Evan Williams, machine maker married Bennett Jones, f, b, mariner of Llanaber, Merioneth, son of Evan Jones, master mariner at Llechcynfarwy Parish Church on 17 Mar 1840.
I believe the Richard Williams (15) mentioned by despair and living in Twrcelyn St. Amlwch in 1841 with mother Grace and siblings Hugh, John and Henry is 'our' Richard. I cannot find the 1851 census despair reports "but he's still there in 1851", but mother Grace (68) and John (24) are at Market Square, Amlwch in 1851.
The marriage of a Hugh Williams (below) suggests the deceased father was named John.
Hugh Williams, f, b, shoemaker of Twrcelyn, Amlwch, son of John Williams, shoemaker married Ann Thomas, f,s, of Llanerchymedd, dau of Robert Thomas, shoemaker at Llanerchymedd parish church 30 Oct 1846.
It seems that Catherine Grace was named after both of her grandmothers.
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Apologies to dragonT and all others- I meant 1861 not 1851 ref. RG09/4369/16/34.However,maybe the 1861 Richard is the son of John and Elizabeth also living at Market Square in 1851 ref HO107/2521/385/4(need to check).Given that, dragonT's data is convincing.
Regards
Roger
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The data also accords with Jane and her daughter Grace(who dies in 1852) being back with the family in 1851,where William is given as just William Morris,not William Morris Williams? (HO107/2520/466/4)
I think I also mistook Jane's sister Grace on the 1841 as her mother,leaving a Catherine to be ascribed to Richard,which didn't help.Had a few "senior moments" on this one - apologies to all again.
Regards
Roger
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Cambrian News, 26 May 1882
PARRY- WILLIAMS. May 9th, at Twrgwyn Chapel, Upper Bangor, by the Rev. John Williams Llanerchymedd, uncle of the bride, Mr William Parry, station master, Menai Bridge, to Miss C G Williams. only daughter ot Mr Richard Williams, boot and shoemaker, 314, High-street.
Question is which side is the reverend uncle?
Judging from the details of the Rev. John Williams two marriages he was Richard Williams' brother.
31 Aug 1858 - John Williams, 32,b, Minister of the gospel, Aberffraw, son of John Williams, shoemaker married Margaret Williams, s, Rhodogeidio, dau of William Williams, shoemaker at Tabernacle C.M. Chapel, Llanfair Mathafarn Eithaf
30 Mar 1886 - John Williams, 50 (should be 60), wid, Minister of the Gospel, Stanley House, Llanerchymedd, son of John Williams, shoemaker married Mary Lewis, 50, s, Calvinistic Chapel House, Llanerchymedd, dau of Hugh Lewis, shoemaker at Bethesda Chapel, Amlwch.
According to the obituary posted by Mabel Bagshawe, John Williams began his training to become a Methodist minister in Bala College in 1854. The 1841 census in Amlwch showing Grace Williams (widow) with children Hugh, Richard and John and the 1851 census with Grace and John seem completely consistent with what is known of Rev. John Williams early life.
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It may be possible,perhaps even without negating the conclusion reached,that the Hugh Williams who married Ann is the son of John Williams (shoemaker) and Elizabeth,whose son Richard ends up in Twrcelyn Street in 1861.His age is a little nearer that Hugh,if as I think that couple are in High Street Amlwch in 1851
HO/107/2521/390/14
There is another Hugh Williams,shoemaker,in Amlwch in 1851,married to Ellin,who could be Grace's son?
HO 107/2521/395/25
Given my form on this thread,they are probably the other way around!
Regards
Roger
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30 Mar 1886 - John Williams, 50 (should be 60), wid, Minister of the Gospel, Stanley House, Llanerchymedd, son of John Williams, shoemaker married Mary Lewis, 50, s, Calvinistic Chapel House, Llanerchymedd, dau of Hugh Lewis, shoemaker at Bethesda Chapel, Amlwch.
That makes more sense of the comments about the Lewis brothers, mourners at the Rev John's funeral, being the sons of the brother of the Rev's wife. the obit definitely said first wife, but looks more like his second wife's nephews
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I don't think this has been covered before(apologies,again,if it has)
Marriage bond at NLW
Evan Williams,machine maker,bachelor,Llannerch y medd to Catherine Edmunds,spinster,Llannerch y medd Oct 26 1811.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kbp/
Regards
Roger
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The onlly reasonable conetnder I can find the marriage of John Williams to Grace is the following:-
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kc2/
I think I have found the marriage of the other John Williams,shoemaker,Amlwch to Elizabeth,but to avoid confusion,I won't detail it.
Regards
Roger
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I have been sitting here with so many bits of paper around me, but not moving on. Despair you are brilliant. I think both marriages are correct. The Richard and Elizabeth , are they connected. Thank you so much everyone, I imagine you all with your sheaf of notes but I think we have finally found the correct family. Thank you all so much
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I meant John and Elizabeth
regards Carol
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I'm not aware of a connection with the family of John and Elizabeth.
I shouldn't be singled out for credit,I introduced as much confusion as certainty!It should go to everyone involved,it's been a typically good co-operative effort.
It may,only may,be possible to find something more on the "grandparent" generation.Would you prefer to do that yourself?
Regards
Roger
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I would love it if you are willing to help with the grandparents. I was thanking everyone, the welsh newspapers and everything that you all discovered which helped with the jigsaw,Thank all of you so much. If anyone could help further I would really appreciate it
I meant to say before, in the 1851 census I think Richard was by himself as Jane's father Evan had just died before the census and she had gone home to her brothers and sister.
regards
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Catherine Edmunds,wife of Evan Williams,mother of Jane died 22nd March 1832.Unfortunately the part of the newspaper article that gives her age is not legible.
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4461380/4461382/12/
(In a remarkable coincidence the notice is next to that of Rev John Richards relative of Viking666,who contributed to the thread earlier).
Regards
Roger
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Her burial is recorded in Llanerchymedd Parish Burials 1832-1869: Catherine Edmunds, age 44, resident of Amlwch parish, buried 28 Mar 1832.
FindmyPast has a baptism which may well be her:
Catherine the daughter of John Edmunds and Elizabeth was baptized 5th of March. The transcription has the year as 1787 and the place as Llangefni but there may be some doubt about both.
There are baptisms for two possible siblings:
Griffith 2 May 1778 Llanwenllwyfo
Grace 10 Apr 1785 Llangefni
Also in the Llanerchymedd Burial Register 1832-1869 are:
John Edmunds, age 89, of Menai Bridge Inn (Amlwch parish), buried 5 Nov 1852 and
Elizabeth Edmunds, age 79, Menai Bridge Inn, buried 18 Oct 1852.
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Also in the Llanerchymedd Burial Register 1832-1869 are:
John Edmunds, age 89, of Menai Bridge Inn (Amlwch parish), buried 5 Nov 1852 and
Elizabeth Edmunds, age 79, Menai Bridge Inn, buried 18 Oct 1852.
This is not correct as the death registration for Elizabeth Edmunds describes her as the widow of John Edmunds, so he died first. She died 14 Oct 1852 at Llanerchymedd, age 89, the widow of hatter John Edmunds. The informant was Eleanor Edmunds. In the 1851 census Elizabeth is a widow, aged 88 living with her son John, age 52, a shoemaker at Bridge St. Llanerchymedd, Amlwch parish. This John Edmunds died 1 Nov 1852, age 54, at Llanerchymedd. The informant was again Eleanor Edmunds, who, judging from the 1851 census was daughter of John Edmunds, the shoemaker and granddaughter of Elizabeth Edmunds. Sorry for the confusion!
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thank you so much. trying to find Elizabeths maiden name and then marriage to John Edmunds, hatter
the marriage must have been before 1887, thats presuming Catherine was their first child
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I meant 1787 silly mistake!!!!
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This looks a reasonable candidate for the marriage of Catherine's parents:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kcw/
Regards
Roger
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I can't find a confident baptism for Grace Griffith.There are four in the period !784-6,which appear reasonable dates for a marriage in 1805,but I can't find an obvious reason for selecting one, e.g. locality.
Regards
Roger
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Thank you everyone for all your help. I have decided to end this thread as I have found a lot of info on Hugh,Henry and Richard but can get no further with their parents apart from the marriage of Grace and John that you discovered.So I think I will move on to another branch. Thank you again I would never have done so well without your ideas