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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: deejayEn on Wednesday 28 June 17 22:57 BST (UK)
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I'm looking for information on what happened to a girl called Cynthia Holford, AKA Cynthia Wills or possibly McArthur She was born circa 1908-09 in Liverpool, England. Her mother was Charlotte Wills (nee Webb) who was born in London in 1869. She married gardener/florist William Wills in 1886 and had two children William Robert b1887 and Dorothy Zillah b1894. She desired to be an actress/performer and around 1901-1902 found success on the stage under the name Mamie Stewart appearing in musicals by Leslie Stuart and later formed her own theatrical company appearing in revues and pantos. Because of her new profession she separated from her husband around 1902 but during a voyage overseas a few years later met Richard Pierce Holford who was a steward on the SS Carpathia and later other ships. Although she never married they had one child who was Cynthia. I have found her and her mother on the 1911 census living in West Ham in East London and bizarrely Charlotte is now using the name Mamie Holford (a combination of her stage name and common-law husband's name) and claims to be an American citizen. She seemingly spent some time touring in America but never became a US citizen. Her daughter Cynthia Holford is living with her and is listed as being born in Liverpool. This fits in with her father Richard as he came from Liverpool-Birkenhead but he is not in the Census and was presumably away at sea. Charlotte/Mamie and Cynthia are living with friends, this was not their family home, in fact I don't know where her home was at the time. I have manged to piece this together over many years but it's what happened next that is the real puzzle. Charlotte died in 1913, we think possibly in childbirth. Her son was in the army by this point and we don't know what happened to Dorothy. But Cynthia was just 5 or 6 and we believe went to live with a family (possibly called McArthur) in the West Country and later was adopted by a family, possibly a branch of the same family, in America and was taken to live there. But we don't know where. Can anyone help me trace what happened to her?
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There are a couple of discrepancies between info above and 1911 entry
Her mother was Charlotte Wills (nee Webb) who was born in London in 1869.
1911 shows her as 33yrs old - birthyear 1877/78. The 1913 death shows her as 45
She married gardener/florist William Wills in 1886 and had two children William Robert b1887 and Dorothy Zillah b1894.
1911 shows 8yrs married and only one child born to the marriage
Have you located her husband and the other 2 children in 1911?
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She was born as Mabelle Constance Cynthia Holford March qtr 1908 West Derby 8b 377 mothers maiden name Wills as per freebmd and info from GRO online
www.freebmd.org.uk
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp
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and later was adopted by a family, possibly a branch of the same family, in America and was taken to live there
See freebmd - You will find a marriage for her in London in 1929 to John L Murphy
She died 15.12.1998 in Harrow - born 23.1.1908
She left a will
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills
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Carole - many, many thanks, I think you've solved it. So her real name was Maybelle Constance Cynthia Holford. I had looked for the name Cynthia with various surnames but it never occurred to me that it wasn't her first name. And it fits because I know that her father Richard had a sister called Mabel so she was probably named after her, albeit with an American spelling, although she was clearly known as Cynthia.
I am doing this research on behalf of my friend and he said that his aunt, who was the same age as her cousin Cynthia, was always told that she was unofficially adopted by another family and went to live in America but it seems that this was a lie, probably told because when Charlotte died her family did not approve of her relationship with Richard as a married woman (her husband William Wills was still alive). It seems that they then wanted to adopt Cynthia and the migration story was told to them to shut them up. It's a shame because my friend's aunt always wanted to know what happened to her but never found out and she died aged 101 a few years ago.
To answer your questions Charlotte's other two children were elsewhere in 1911 - William was in the army stationed in Regents Park Barracks (although he ends up marrying and briefly living with Richard Holford and his family) while Dorothy's whereabouts are unknown. I was always intrigued by her second name Zillah which is pretty unusual but it didn't help me find her after 1901. Cynthia/Maybelle's father Richard was away at sea in 1911 and worked on-and-off as a ship's steward until 1939 when he retired.
I have looked though the voting registers from the 1920s-1960s and have traced where Richard P Holford lived until his death in 1962. But what is odd is that various other people with the surname Holford live with him including a woman called Mabel (who I assume to be his sister) but it is not clear who they are - their names are Frederick, Masie, Constance and Richard (Jnr). Also I know he married Charlotte's sister Mary Anne Cove in 1938 but for some reason she does not appear on the voting register. Any help would be gratefully received.
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Hi
She was Mabelle - not Maybelle. She had a child in 1930 but as there is no death showing up to 2007 I can't show details here. You will find the info on freebmd by searching Murphy births with mmn Holford
Richard P Holford was 82 when he died in 1962 and was born in Birkenhead 12.10.1879 so was some 10yrs younger than Charlotte. There is no probate entry for him
Also I know he married Charlotte's sister Mary Anne Cove in 1938
Was Mary a half sister? If she was born as Webb I can't see a Webb/Cove marriage
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If Charlotte wasn't born till 1877ish, then she could not have married Wills in 1886.
Or are we taking it that she toned down her age quite dramatically for the 1911 census!
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Or are we taking it that she toned down her age quite dramatically for the 1911 census!
Yes she did.
1911 shows her as 33yrs old - birthyear 1877/78. The 1913 death shows her as 45
She was 10yrs older than Richard Holford
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What I was working towards was to find her on early censuses, to see whether she had a sister Mary as per the marriage, and if, as thought, there was any second marriage of her parents to a Cove or anything lie that.
But without a definite year or place of birth for her, it is hard to pinpoint which Charlotte Webb she might be.
Do you have her marriage cert to Wills? If so who was her father?
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Not to worry, I have got it
22 Nov 1886
Bethnal green
William Wills 21 bach, florist, 6 Halts Place Hyde Rd Hoxton, father George Wills, publican
Charlotte Webb, 17, spinster, same address, father William Webb, papework decorator?
One witness, who made mark, looks like a Hannah Webb?
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1881
2 New Street Shoreditch
William Webb 33 painter bn Shoreditch
Hannah 32 bn Norwich
Charlotte 11
Richard 6
Mary A 5
Amelia 2
John 7 mths children bn Shoreditch
1891 family are at 106 Tottenham Rd, Charlotte not there. Others the same, Dad now a decorator.
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Could this be Mary's death?
Deaths December qtr 1963
Mary A E Holford aged 87 St Pancras 5d 439
Births June qtr 1875
Mary Ann E Webb Poplar 1c 627 but mmn was Nankivell which does not fit. MMN should be Watson
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Many thanks to both of you. It's much appreciated.
I found the son on the BDM and think I have found his marriage.
I couldn't find a marriage of Mary Ann Webb to Thomas Cove but did find them on the 1911 Census in Haggerston, he was 14 years older than her. He was a painter/decorator like her father so they may have worked together. It is odd that after she married Richard Holford she isn't on the voting register.
As Charlotte was an actress it is little surprise that she shaved a few years off her age (she played a schoolgirl in 1902 at the age of 33).
I am still tying to locate what happened to the other daughter Dorothy and the origin of the other Holford family members on the 1930s voting register in Camden which is a mystery. I suspect that as he was a seaman maybe Richard Holford had a second common law wife and another family somewhere and his children came to live with him when the mother died.
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Dorothy may have dropped her middle name if she married. Only one death for a Dorothy Zillah born 1893 and that was in the North East and the birth checks out to a different person
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Hi
A Mabel is with Richard on 1939.
Mary A M(abel?) Cove ? (as per Freebmd marriage entry?)
Ray
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I've solved the mystery of not finding a marriage for Mary Webb to Thomas Cove, it seems she previously married a William Ferguson who died and so she married Thomas Cove as Mary Ferguson.
Mary AM Cove can't be the Mabel who lived with Richard Holford because she was still married to Thomas Cove until 1930 when he died but a Mabel is listed as living with Richard Holford in Kentish Town as early as 1920. I suspect this is his sister.
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Marriages December qtr 1938
Mary A M Cove/Richard P Holford Pancras 1b 239
Marriages June qtr 1895
William Ferguson Shoreditch 1c 159
Mary Ann E Webb Shoreditch 1c 159
1895 marriage is on Ancestry and shows her as Mary Ann Elizabeth aged 20 father William Walker Webb occ house decorator
Marriages June qtr 1909
Thomas Charles Cove Shoreditch 1c 135
Mary Ann E Ferguson Shoreditch 1c 135
1909 marriage is on Ancestry and shows her as Mary Ann Elizabeth Ferguson widow aged 27yrs father William Walker Webb occ builder
The 1938 marriage to Holford has M as her 3rd christian name but the 1963 death I found earlier must be the right one given her 2 previous marriage entries
Richard's sister Mabel was born in 1877 - how old is the Mabel found on the 1939 register?
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I cannot tell you that Richard the details from 1939 of the 2x sisters he is with.
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There is a death on 8.4.1959 for a Mabel Holford spinster aged 83 (1878) Address was 3 High Rd Willesden Green London but she died in Reigate Surrey. She left £5,247 and probate was granted to Brian King - bank manager
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills