RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: robert g shaw on Thursday 29 June 17 14:47 BST (UK)
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hi
looking for iformation on my great great grandfather whos early life is a mystery.
the first i know of him is when he married eliza knight in derby in 1872. that gives his age as 26, and his father as william. the 2 census returns hes on before his early death suggest he came from kent. he was also a gas fitter/hot water fitter...
has anybody got any idea where he was in 1871? or where he was christened? i cannot find him or his father william on any earlier census and id have thought to be a gas/hot water plumber he must have had training - but where?
cheers... rob.
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1881 & 1891 gives his place of birth as Hythe, Kent (age 34 in 1881 - 45 in 1891)
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What was his fathers occupation
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On your thread in November 2015 you had James in Derby in 1871
Keyboard86
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On your thread in November 2015 you had James in Derby in 1871
Keyboard86
Just giving the link
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=734620.
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On your thread in November 2015 you had James in Derby in 1871
Keyboard86
The post was amended (reply #3) to say James Howe was in Derby in 1881, the 1871 was not found.
JJ
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thank yous..
yes the 1871 was an error, i only have him on 2 census before he died young. i know it says 'hythe' but there absolutely no trace on him in hythe or kent.
his father - william supposed to have been a farmer, thats what his marriage certificate says, but i have no idea where and ive not found a farmer william in derbys or kent.
he married in derby in 1872, just after a census, but for some reason he is simply invisible before his marriage.
theres a family rumour that only his wife eliza knew who he really was and they both took that secret to the grave.
tbh im thinking 'james howe' wasnt his real name. even his fathers name could be made up.
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Hi Robert
Just adding this suggestion. On the 1871 census there is a 24 year old Eliza Knight working as a Domestic Servant in a hh on North Parade , Derby.
Is she possibly the one that James Howe married, if so, have you tried using the census pages to "look around" that area to see if any Gas fitters/Plumbers show up.
He might have been a lodger in the same area as Eliza. They had to meet somewhere, and as a Dom Servant her life outdoors would be limited.
I suppose he could also have done work in the hh where Eliza was employed.
I am not familiar enough with Derby to say what kind of houses were on North Parade, but I'm sure there are members who will know
regards
lemur41
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hi... yes i believe that to be 'my' eliza... thats a good idea about searching neighbouring properties but id have thought he would be using james howe .
im thinking he deliberately ignored the census, but i might be being swayed by the family story. mind you, on my fathers side there was a story and i eventually proved that was correct. ~
i guess im hoping someone has access to a snippet of info i havnt which might shed light on this shady character, of coure if he did change his name after coming to derby, theres no possibility of discovering exactly who he is.
i wonder if anyones got access to the local paper for kent c1864-1872, there might be a mystery murder or something in there or maybe an army deserter. but of course the kent connection might be a lie too..
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Robert
Concentrate on looking around more for the Occupation- someone in the Plumbing/Gas fitting trade. Then look at the name, age & pob etc, and elminate them if you can find earlier proof about them that shows they are not your man. It will take a bit of time, but I did manage to find a couple of my relatives doing the same kind of search
The house on North Parade had quite a few servants listed in 1871, so I would expect it to be quite a large house and maybe wealthy enough to need that kind of handyman or service. And if he was a Lodger somewhere then hh would provide census details
She wouldn't travel that far, says she was born Derby so may have family around Derby that she visited , went to market , church maybe on Sunday. Her social circle wouldn't be that wide given the lives and hours that Domestic Servants worked in those days
Good luck
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Robert
Concentrate on looking around more for the Occupation- someone in the Plumbing/Gas fitting trade. Then look at the name, age & pob etc, and elminate them if you can find earlier proof about them that shows they are not your man. It will take a bit of time, but I did manage to find a couple of my relatives doing the same kind of search
The house on North Parade had quite a few servants listed in 1871, so I would expect it to be quite a large house and maybe wealthy enough to need that kind of handyman or service. And if he was a Lodger somewhere then hh would provide census details
She wouldn't travel that far, says she was born Derby so may have family around Derby that she visited , went to market , church maybe on Sunday. Her social circle wouldn't be that wide given the lives and hours that Domestic Servants worked in those days
Good luck
cheers, ill try!
eliza knight was a rough lass, her dad was a deserter from the army in 1840, he altered his birthplace on every census and got into a few scrapes with the law. another of his daughters got into a fight and he encouraged her "wire in jenny "
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Hi Robert
Just adding this suggestion. On the 1871 census there is a 24 year old Eliza Knight working as a Domestic Servant in a hh on North Parade , Derby.
Is she possibly the one that James Howe married, if so, have you tried using the census pages to "look around" that area to see if any Gas fitters/Plumbers show up.
He might have been a lodger in the same area as Eliza. They had to meet somewhere, and as a Dom Servant her life outdoors would be limited.
I suppose he could also have done work in the hh where Eliza was employed.
I am not familiar enough with Derby to say what kind of houses were on North Parade, but I'm sure there are members who will know
regards
lemur41
thats odd... i saw that previously, but now im on findmypast ive found what certainly is 'my' eliza knight as shes with her parents on river street derby.. and no sign of the eliza who was a domestic servant...
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James
Your reply to my question "could the 24 year old Eliza be yours " was "yes I believe so." There's a big difference between born c 1847 & c 1856. True I didn't ask you for her yob, and perhaps it was stated in your earlier post which I didn't read.
Have you noticeed the 27 year old Lodger living next door to the Knight family on River Street, who was born London, and Occupation Engine Fitter.
Perhaps you could check him out on earlier & later census.
Good luck
lemur41
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James
Your reply to my question "could the 24 year old Eliza be yours " was "yes I believe so." There's a big difference between born c 1847 & c 1856. True I didn't ask you for her yob, and perhaps it was stated in your earlier post which I didn't read.
Have you noticeed the 27 year old Lodger living next door to the Knight family on River Street, who was born London, and Occupation Engine Fitter.
Perhaps you could check him out on earlier & later census.
Good luck
lemur41
you are right, i had previously viewed the domestic servant (about 18 months ago) and assumed it was 'my' eliza, i didnt check the dates of birth which is bad detective work.
i have only justy joined findmypast, so no, i hadnt/couldnt check nearby people on the census but that was one line of enquirey.
thanks :)
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James
Your reply to my question "could the 24 year old Eliza be yours " was "yes I believe so." There's a big difference between born c 1847 & c 1856. True I didn't ask you for her yob, and perhaps it was stated in your earlier post which I didn't read.
Have you noticeed the 27 year old Lodger living next door to the Knight family on River Street, who was born London, and Occupation Engine Fitter.
Perhaps you could check him out on earlier & later census.
Good luck
lemur41
a quick search yeilds nothing, i cannot find this person (with any degree of certainty) before/after/birth or death anywhere in the uk.
i find that mighty suspicous. but im not sure why in 1871 he would be henry shepard, living next door to eliza knight, but marries her a year later as james howe... surely if he were to change his name he would do that when he moved up here, unless he told them that henry shepard was a false name and his real name was james howe - which would be a lie...
another thought is that 'james howe' knew (of) james knight, james knight came from kent or surrey (born surrey moved kent?) . james howe insists he was born in kent on the 2 census he appears on. james knight was here in derby by 1844 when henry shepard and or james howe (1846) was born. so not an obvious direct link, but maybe an in law or uncle/nephew?
if, as we think, james howe wasnt his real name because family tradition states 'only his wife knew his real identity and she/they took that to the grave', then after whatever he did , he moved to derby knowing james knight would help him out?..
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Hi Rob
That's OK, I assumed she was the one around the same age as her husband, when you didn't correct me. But if she was the 15 year old who married within a year of the census to a man who said he was 10 years older, that does shift the focus slightly.
Do you have a copy of the mc, if so , does it give her age and say that she married with a parent's consent. That would indicate that she was under 21 years of age, and depending when her birthday was, probably only just old enough to marry. I can't remember when the lower age limit was raised to 16, in the 18th cent and before they could marry younger.
I see that she was employed as a Mill Hand, so out a little bit in the wider world.
Try to remember though that conditions for all women 150 years ago were totally different to today.
They had no rights.
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Hi Rob
That's OK, I assumed she was the one around the same age as her husband, when you didn't correct me. But if she was the 15 year old who married within a year of the census to a man who said he was 10 years older, that does shift the focus slightly.
Do you have a copy of the mc, if so , does it give her age and say that she married with a parent's consent. That would indicate that she was under 21 years of age, and depending when her birthday was, probably only just old enough to marry. I can't remember when the lower age limit was raised to 16, in the 18th cent and before they could marry younger.
I see that she was employed as a Mill Hand, so out a little bit in the wider world.
Try to remember though that conditions for all women 150 years ago were totally different to today.
They had no rights.
i saw it on family search but those images can only be viewed for free at one of their centres now grrr. the marriage is mentioned quite a lot though, it was mentioned in the local newspaper - just that they were marrying that is.
odd thing is, i cannot pin down elizas actual birth. i see she was christened in 1858, her marriage gives her age as 19, so 1853, but the census suggest she was born in 1855 or 1856. her grave says she was 74 in 1929, so born 1855. shes buried with her daughter mary jane and her son in law james atkins. james howe is in a paupers grave. hmmm thats a thought, who is he buried with?.. i think i might have that info somewhere. (hashtag isinamess)
accuracy didnt matter to james knight, his birth was anything between 1811 and 1822 according to the census. lol.
the marriage cert gave james howes father as william, he was a farmer, i can find no william howe being a farmer either in derbys or kent.
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without the mariage, i have 2 census and one death for james howe... both census have him in hythe kent (1881, 1891) with being born in 1846 and 1847. his death cert in 1893 gives his age as 43, 2 years younger then he was for the census in 1891, lol. that means he could have been born in 1850, which is no age gap if eliza was 1853.
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It would appear from roberts other post that this topic has been answered by PM - just copying what has been posted on other post - it is being discussed on there ;D
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=774814.
yes... member lemur41 has been in touch on pm, she uncovered the truth!
james howe married eliza knight in derby in 1872. i could find no trace of james howe before this date but in the 1871 census it was noticed that living next door to eliza knight was henry shepard. lemur41 did some digging and couldnt find any further trace of henry shepard.
she looked under births 1846 london, where the 71 census says h shepard came from and found he was a 'nurse child' on the 51 census.
his 'parents' were william and hannah mower, they were in the workhouse along with their kids. it is supposed that one of the mowers daughters, either hannah 1824 or maria 1826 had the illegitimate henry and their parents took him on.
in the workhouse at the same time, in 1841, was a james shepard, so its likely he knew the mower girls.
hannah mowers maiden name was ........ howe .....
henry shepard lived a rougish life by the look of it, joining the navy, living in canada, marrying, deserting them, returning to london and fathering another child marrying again (?) before deserting them moving to derby, meeting eliza knight, and changing his name to avoid detection!
he chose his real fathers name james, and his (grandmothers) name howe. he said his fathers william on the marriage cert to eliza.
i have not located a birth certificate for henry shepard, but he died young in 1893 (47) from 'dropsy' i have his death cert (well my mum does).