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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: pete edwards on Friday 30 June 17 09:54 BST (UK)
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Posting this on behalf of a friend.
Can anyone give me any information as to the medal ribbon and possible age of this uniform
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The left hand (as we look at it) is the General Service medal ribbon from 1962 to 2007, awarded for service in a number of circumstances depending on the time frame.(Wikipedia will help). The uniform looks the same period. The buttons are the black buttons of rifle regiments, the exact one would also depend on the time frame as regiments changed/were amalgamated but included for example the Royal Green Jackets, Rifle Brigade, present day Rifles etc etc. (Purists please note my caveat about time frame!). The second ribbon - don't know but looks a bit rare so may help to define this all better.
maxD
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Don't know if it makes sense, but it looks like this one:
http://www.medalsofwar.com/product/oman-peace-medal/
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Good spot Ruskie, could well make sense - awarded to some Brits seconded to the Sultanate of Omans forces in the period 1976-1985 a time frame which makes sense with the other clues.
maxD
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Have been trying to identify the buttons.
They appear to have the Victoria Cross emblem on them. Any more thoughts. Will take some better pictures and post them.
Many thanks.
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They are most certainly the black buttons of a rifle regiment. Google "rifle regiment buttons" and you'll see the many different patterns, all with the bugle and some with additional features. Note the Ghurka buttons have a kukri.
better pic would be good.
maxD
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Hi Pete these are the buttons we were trying to identify thanks for all your help.
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And these are the pips
Thanks.
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The Garhwal Rifles
Google for information.
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Not sure Jebber. The Garwhal Rifles have (unless there has been a relatively recent change), in common with other rifle regiments, a bugle at the centre of their badge and buttons. That said, I haven't found any with the Maltese Cross and a pattern of four somethings in the centre!
The pips are easy enough, they are standard British Officers' pips (Bath Star) with Tria Juncta in Uno around the centre. Black because blah blah rifles as before. Although only two can be seen, it looks like the inner two of three captain's pips.
maxD
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British army Chaplain apparently. ;D
Back the original question however. The second medal colour is gold / green / gold.
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British army Chaplain apparently. ;D
Back the original question however. The second medal colour is gold / green / gold.
Yes, good find.
Do you have the medal ribbons? Because I agree with Ruskle about the Oman Peace Medal. The colours are clear enough to be silver green silver, gold would show up darker.
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Close up of ribbons and definitely gold so the jury is out on that one.
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Well done, a chaplain it is indeed. Completely overlooked the men of the cloth having black buttons - obsessed with Rifle Regiments!! Captain Clarke sounds as if this was known all along or am I reading too much into his/her post!
Medal ribbons, deffo a General Service Medal ribbon but for where depends on time frame as said. Unless the gold/green/gold comes from the actual ribbon and not a photo I still go for the Oman Peace Medal, see oman peace medal british troops for colours . A GSM was awarded for a number of what the system calls minor campaigns including Dhofar 69-75 which would accord with the timing of the Peace Medal. If the medal is held, the clasp will say where it was for.
In sum, I think we are looking at the uniform of a RAChD captain (correctly Chaplain to the Forces 4th Class) who served for some time in Oman, best guess the Dhofar campaign
maxD
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The ribbon in your photo comes up as white/green/white. Are you saying that in reality it is yellow/green/yellow?
I found a yellow/green/yellow ribbon when I looked yesterday but dismissed it because I thought your ribbon was white ..... I will see if I can find it just in case. :)
Added: I must have been imagining it, as I can't find it now. White/green/white only I'm afraid. I did find the same ribbon looking a bit grubby and the white had yellowed a bit. ;)
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Ruskie
You were right with your first post on this. If you feel you want to keep looking for another ribbon,
then may I offer these pointers? (If this looks too much like a bit of a lecture, feel free to ignore).
While the colours and pattern are of course important:
It has to be a campaign medal not a gallantry or similar as they would be worn in order before the campaign medal (in this case the GSM) he is already wearing.
It has to be one that is authorised for British troops to wear.
It has to be one awarded in the correct time frame (in this case 1962 to 2007 as indicated by the uniform pattern and the GSM).
Those parameters, which can best be checked out initially here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_awards_and_decorations_of_the_United_Kingdom#Order_of_wear confirm your proposal of the Oman Peace Medal which again I support.
Perhaps Pete would indicate what the purpose of the identification is? Is it to confirm other information held about a known individual or is it simply for interest? If it is the former then further investigation might be possible, with the latter then it doesn't really matter what the ribbon is does it?
maxD
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Thanks for the lecture Max. ;) ;D
I discovered fairly quickly that there doesn't appear to be anything else like this ribbon. As you say, my original find is probably correct.
(added: I'm only joking about the "lecture") ;D
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Ruskie
I think we know each other well enough now for me to know you would take the "lecture" with tongue firmly in cheek ;D
maxD
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You're not wrong Max. ;)
;D
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Slightly overwhelmed by the responses.
To clarify the original question.
I run a charity and also do some other charity work outside of my own. Recently I have been supporting local veterans events and came across this jacket in an antiques store. It fitted perfectly but I had no idea as to its history. I am now trying to piece together an entire uniform based on this. I have been doing quite a lot of research myself, hence the discovery that it was a Chaplains. My latest research points to a dutch origin for the ribbon ??? Thanks to everyone and if you have any suggestions as to suitable outlets then I would love to know.
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Is there a name inside the jacket, or anything else to identify it's owner or origns?
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Can't find the "Dutch" ribbon here
file:///C:/Users/MaxD/Downloads/kleding%20VS-2-1593.pdf pages 9-49 to 9-53
To complete the uniform you are looking for a British Army Officers Service Dress trouser http://www.sofmilitary.co.uk/british-officers-service-dress-sd-trousers-product,15275 (other oulets are available)
maxD
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Slightly overwhelmed by the responses.
Rootschat is full of friendly, helpful & knowledgeable people - to post here can open the flood gates to their combined experience and breadth of resources ;D; I don't know too many queries that aren't resolved to a major degree. We love a challenge & as you can see it's always good to post what you DO know in the first instance.
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Good afternoon,
Interestingly there are loops sewn on above the GSM to carry the medal but nothing above the other ribbon. That tells me the medal was never worn at all.
John915
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Good afternoon,
Interestingly there are loops sewn on above the GSM to carry the medal but nothing above the other ribbon. That tells me the medal was never worn at all.
John915
Not necessarily so, it may only have required the two loops if the medals were on a double bar. I posses a uniform with only three loops but it was worn with six medals, I have the medals also.
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I know this is probably wrong but I have found this
de eervolle vermelding medal
If you look on google images its the closest I can find.
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I know this is probably wrong but I have found this
de eervolle vermelding medal
If you look on google images its the closest I can find.
Do you mean the one about half the way down this page:
http://haffmansantiek.nl/collection/munten-en-penningen-coins-and-medals.html?___from_store=en&___store=en&cat=78&dir=desc&limit=25&mode=list&order=name&p=4
The stripe is similar but it is yellow and green whereas yours is white and green.
Is there any reason that you don't believe that the Oman Peace Medal is the right one?
If it eases your doubt, this one isn't quite as white:
https://www.ecsnaith.com/ribbon-oman-peace-medal.html
;) :)
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Good afternoon,
Good afternoon,
Interestingly there are loops sewn on above the GSM to carry the medal but nothing above the other ribbon. That tells me the medal was never worn at all.
John915
Not necessarily so, it may only have required the two loops if the medals were on a double bar. I posses a uniform with only three loops but it was worn with six medals, I have the medals also.
Your loops would have been spread along the length of your ribbons therefore keeping the medals level. If you hung two medals on the one pictured they would have hung crooked because the one medal would have had no support.
John915
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I can say without doubt that the ribbon is definitely gold and green. I've even put white yellow and cream objects next to it so as to prove I'm not actually going colour blind lol
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The dutch medal seems to an old one - not sure how that tallies with the other ribbon and the uniform.
Would you be able to rephotograph the ribbon to try to get closer to the real colour (maybe with something white beside it for contrast)? I know computer monitors vary but it looks almost pure white on mine. :)
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See my "lecture" earlier about other parameters - the first image that Google puts up for the term de eervolle vermelding medal is the one Ruskie points to in the other document.
It is a dutch medal for the equivalent of a mention in despatches in the Aceh War of 1873-1880
It is in remarkably good condition for a British Army padre of the 1960s/70s to be wearing.
Josey - your earlier post quite made my day.
Ruskie - thanks for the other "off colour" pic which might (??) help (just seen your latest)
John - thanks for your support for Ruskie's spot at the beginning.
maxD
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I'm not sure that my link to the current Royal Netherlands Army definitive document on dress, orders and decorations worked just in case it didn't, here it is again in another form
http://docplayer.nl/16631171-Tenuen-voor-militairen-van-de-koninklijke-landmacht-voorschrift-2-1593.html pages 9-49 to 9-53
It does not include a ribbon anything like the one on the tunic.
maxD
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Good evening,
The dutch medal ribbon is for one of two medals.
First, Decoration for Important Military Acts. Extant apr 1815 to mar 1944. Given for bravery not eligible for the M***** William Order. ( forgotten what the m is).
The same ribbon is also used for the "Expedition Cross" also known as the Cross for important military operations (Dutch equivilent to GSM). Extant feb 1869 to 1942, has a total of 33 possible clasps all in the far east.
The colours are described as orange yellow and pale green
The medal and ribbon were also used to carry the Dutch equivalent to the MiD.
John915
Added, M is for Military, Important Mention is the MiD.
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John915 -I hope you will agree that the appearance of either of those two medal ribbons alongside a British GSM on a British Padre's uniform of the 60s/70s is an aberration too far!
It is of course up to the original poster to accept, or not, our thoughts. I for one feel that I have contributed all I can to this query.
maxD
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Good evening,
I have to agree maxD, had this been the Dutch bravery medal then it should appear in front of the British GSM.
So it has to be the Dutch version GSM, which ended its life 20 years before the British GSM started it's life. Something not right there, my view is that the Padre only had the GSM. Once on the open market someone has added the other not knowing what they were doing. That would also explain the lack of medal hanging loop above it. they didn't have the medal only a ribbon.
John915
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Dutch medal ribbons can be seen here:
http://www.onderscheidingen.nl/
(It's in Dutch! But Vorige means "Previous" and Volgende means "Next")
Posssibility:
Ereteken voor Belangrijke Krijgsbedrijven (see Sheet 4)
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K Garrad
Against my better judgement to come back but the last award of that medal was for Timor in 1942.
John915 I am sticking with the Oman Peace Medal.
maxD
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Good evening,
Much easier to see it all in English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decorations_and_medals_of_the_Netherlands
The one you mention KG is the second on my post. It's the Dutch equivalent to our GSM.
See my last post.
John915
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Back again,
I see what you mean maxD, that medal was instituted by Sultan Qaboos in 1976. It could go with the GSM.
We don't know when the Padre served but a look at the label in the back of the jacket will give us a manufacturing date. Standard British/NATO gobbledegook of course.
John915
PS, he may even have put his name in the space provided. :o :o :o :o :o
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Good evening,
Much easier to see it all in English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decorations_and_medals_of_the_Netherlands
The one you mention KG is the second on my post. It's the Dutch equivalent to our GSM.
See my last post.
John915
Ah! But I can read Dutch! ;D ;D
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And again,
Didn't realise you spoke Dutch on the IoM ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
John915
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16 years living and working in Utrecht! ;D
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Back again,
I see what you mean maxD, that medal was instituted by Sultan Qaboos in 1976. It could go with the GSM.
We don't know when the Padre served but a look at the label in the back of the jacket will give us a manufacturing date. Standard British/NATO gobbledegook of course.
John915
PS, he may even have put his name in the space provided. :o :o :o :o :o
I wondered the same hence asking about a possible name in post #20.
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The ribbon in your photo comes up as white/green/white. Are you saying that in reality it is yellow/green/yellow?
Ruskie...
Good work from the start!!!
I've learned a lot reading this thread but mainly that I must be colour blind :o
The pic I looked at on Reply #12.....
Green/Purple/Green & White/Green/White....I see no Gold/Yellow ???
Annie
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Thank you everyone for your input. I'm going to take the offending ribbon off as it seems to be confusing in the least.
If anyone wants it for research I'll happily post it to them.
There are no names or identification in the clothing. Just the ribbons and parachute wings stitched onto the right arm.
Pete.
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Good morning,
I think we are talking about the Dhofar here. By the 70s there were no British troops left in that area having pulled out of Aden.
There were however members of the SAS there in Oman training the Sultans troops for their war against the liberation army (local insurgents). They were not there, officially, like a great many of the SAS tasks at that time.
Can we see the para wings please.
John915
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That would be the Dhofar in my post 13? ;D
maxD
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Wings as requested.
P.
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A FIND that needs your attention folks. The medals and Para Regt uniform of a Para major (the wings) who became a padre in the RAChD https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/lot-archive/lot.php?department=Medals&lot_id=226138
Goes on after retirement to sell his RAChD uniform? Which is newer and would have need fresh medal ribbons.
Pete - suggest you leave the ribbon on!
maxD
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Nice find Max. ;D
Let's hope Captain Clarke hasn't been busy with his unpicker.
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Good one, Max.
I can stop using my woeful Dutch now! ;D ;D
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Ik spreek geen Nederlands got me through a recent holiday fairly well! You may have noticed he spent time on the IoM, you may have passed him in the street!
maxD - feeling quite chipper today!
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Congratulations Max, an excellent piece of sleuthing.
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Jebber
That's very kind, thank you
Pete - it looks as if you have taken the para wings off, suggest you put them back!
maxD
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Good afternoon,
Amazing find maxD, a lot of questions answered now. The only thing I would say is that as he read theology after resigning his commision, the jacket as it is must date to his time with the ACF on the IoM and in Oxfordshire.
The Dhofar campaign is most memorable for the actions of the huge Fijian guy who manned a 25pdr single handed at the battle of Mirbat. Can't remember his unpronouncable name offhand.
Again, an excellent find, keep up the good work. How about WAI 12 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
John915
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Exactly so John915. Quote from his own letter When I resigned my commission I read theology at Oxford, was ordained in Wells Cathedral and for a few years served as an ACF Chaplain (RAChD) on the Isle of Man and in Oxfordshire. ...’ Signed John Evans.
This is pretty useful regarding the Dhofar campaign
http://www.55fst-ramc.org.uk/DATA%20FST/ADOBE%20FILES/Dhofar%20War%20John%20McKeown%20Full.pdf Battle of Mirbat covered on page 71 et seq.
WA! 12???
maxD
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I would expect that, in addition to being Chaplain of the ACF, he would have been appointed to a church here on the Isle of Man?
But nothing on www.imuseum.im
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Worry ye not they are still attached as is the ribbon. The photo of the wings was taken from the internet. Will post a proper picture later.
P.
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Fine - normal para wings as worn by para trained personnel. I guess John915's earlier request to see the wings was in order to establish whether they were these or SAS wings.
Now that we know who the uniform belonged to, could you recap for interest what you now intend to do with it?
maxD
PS - take care when looking for his trousers as officers' barathea jackets came in a multitude of slightly different shades and cloth weights (this is not an invitation to put a pic up for comparison!!). The purist would ask the RAChD who their approved uniform supplier is (unless it is labelled in the jacket somewhere).
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I have found that trying to find the right shade is nigh on impossible. My original idea was to recreate the original uniform for wearing to charity events.
I own a 1949 Packard and use this so an american uniform would be better. At the moment I'm really not sure as there appears to be some interesting provenance with this jacket. Any ideas ??? welcomed
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Better photo of actual wings.
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Is it a rude question to ask how much you paid for the jacket? ;) ;D
Might the trousers have been with it but displayed elsewhere (eg in the trouser section)? ;) Would it be worth returning to the shop, searching the racks and asking staff if they recall it coming in?
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Not a rude question at all. There was a pair of trousers with it but standard army 2 and were far too small to go with the jacket. 30 waist on the trousers and 42 chest on the jacket. £45 from an antique shop.
P.
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I've been following this thread with interest; the extent of knowledge & expertise shown by those replying has been amazing as well as some of the lateral thinking. The final result is far more than anyone could have expected - finding the name and history of the ACTUAL owner.
I am sure all of them would welcome some words of gratitude and appreciation from the original poster to acknowledge their efforts. Sometimes it's not realised that rootschat is not in any way like a well known search engine, but that each answer has taken time & knowledge to research.
Great work everyone ;).
Josey
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Hear Hear :)
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I think you will find that the OP Pete Edwards posted on behalf of Captain Clarke who took up the thread and responded.
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You should find thanks throughout the posts but you are absolutely right. It has been a sharp learning curve and an awful lot of research by myself of which would not of been possible without your knowledge and guidance.
From Pete and myself a heartwarming thank you to everyone concerned.
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Josey - nicely put thank you indeed.
Captain Clarke - glad we got a result, an enjoyable hunt!
maxD
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As usual, Rootschatters work their magic to help folks!
Just as a by-the-by: MaxD posted a link to a dissertation which included a section on the Battle of Mirbat. There is a book by Rowland White called "Storm Front" which is all about this particular episode of history. I have read it and found it of interest; perhaps others might do so too.
RRTB