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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: RobinRedBreast on Saturday 01 July 17 18:29 BST (UK)
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Hello There,
The above person was one of my 4x Great Grandad's. He was born on the 5th of February 1810, in Debenham Suffolk.
He married Sarah Croskins, in West Ham, on August the 16th 1840. His status at the time was a Widower. Robert had possibly previously married Sarah Barker, in Hackney, on the 16th of October, 1836. There was a Sarah Butcher who died in 1840, aged 36, in the West Ham district. So that possibly could have been her. Robert's occupation at the time of Marriage to Sarah Croskins was a Butcher.
On the 1841 Census, Robert is living at: Scotland Green, Hope Place, Tottenham. Next door appears to be his Father in law, John Croskins, "Carpenter", and his Mother in law, Mary. This corresponds with information relating to Sarah Croskins, baptism record, and the name and occupation of her Father at the time of marriage.
Their first child was baptised Emma Butcher, at Tottenham, on May the 23rd 1841. She was born on April the 21st 1841. At the baptism, Robert's Occupation is put down as: "Butcher". But by the 1841 Census, his Occupation is put down as: "Policeman". Emma died at 11 months old.
I looked on the 1851 Census, and found him at: Marsh Lane Tottenham. He was listed as a Sergeant In The Metropolitan Police on that Census. A GRO search for the children of Robert and Sarah, in the 1851 Census, all give the Mother's maiden surname as: "Croskins".
What I would like to know please, is this:
Would there be any way that I can find out when Robert joined the Metropolitan Police Force/ when he was made a Sergeant? The earliest reference that I can find to Robert actually being a Sergeant, is at the baptism of his Daughter Susan, on March the 26th 1843.
But then I looked at a Family tree on Ancestry, and this brings up some other possibilities/ queries:
There is one Family tree that has Robert joining the Metropolitan Police, on the 25th of September 1835. They list his Warrant number as: 10,955. I downloaded this list, and it seems that this Robert's reason for leaving was because he died. The date (maybe of when it was registered, and not the date of death?) on the list looks like the 10th of May 1852. I found out that Robert was buried in Tottenham, on the 5th of May 1852.
Is it possible that he could have joined the Police at this time but still carried on his job as a Butcher? Would there possibly even be a reason why someone would maybe not want to admit to being a Policeman also?
I looked on The British Newspaper Archive, and it seems that Robert was a Sergeant at N (Islington) Division. There are references to: "Sergeant Butcher, 37 N", and quite a few stories.
Any way, I apologise for this long winded one, but just wanted to put as much information as I could.
Any help or information regarding the above, would be gratefully accepted.
Thank you very much. :) ;)
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Don't know if this link helps it does not start until 1852 but may just 'catch him'
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10828
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A police constable, Robert Butcher N225, shows up in the Tottenham area a few times from 1836, on The Old Baily website.
From 1840 a Robert Butcher N37 appears.
I have no idea wheather the same person can change numbers or not.
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Don't know if this link helps it does not start until 1852 but may just 'catch him'
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10828
Thank you.
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A police constable, Robert Butcher N225, shows up in the Tottenham area a few times from 1836, on The Old Baily website.
From 1840 a Robert Butcher N37 appears.
I have no idea wheather the same person can change numbers or not.
Thank you. I think mine was N37.
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You can request a free search for his service records:
https://www.metpolicehistory.co.uk/met-police-family-history.html
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You can request a free search for his service records:
https://www.metpolicehistory.co.uk/met-police-family-history.html
Thank you very much. :) ;)
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I have a policeman in my family. You might gain a lot of info if you look for him in the papers of the area at that time. Also there is a document list held at Kew of the Met policemen and when they joined and left the service.
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I have a policeman in my family. You might gain a lot of info if you look for him in the papers of the area at that time. Also there is a document list held at Kew of the Met policemen and when they joined and left the service.
Thank you. ;) :)
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Hi, in answer to your question about joining the police and still being a butcher, you might want to read up on how the Met came about. My great (x4) grandfather George Maisey turned out to be one of the first set of Superintendents in the Met, which is a big step up from the occupation of shoemaker which we had him being on his marriage certificate !! In his case, it appear he started working as a 'Night Constable' in the 1820's, which was like a private police force, which was obviously a secondary evening/night job I am assuming to earn extra case to support his family, whilst still being a Shoemaker. He seems to have progressed in this role, to eventually becoming a well respected leader in that business, if the newspaper reports are to be believed. As the private police got rolled up into the Met he was made into a Superintendent in 1830.
Richard
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Hi, in answer to your question about joining the police and still being a butcher, you might want to read up on how the Met came about. My great (x4) grandfather George Maisey turned out to be one of the first set of Superintendents in the Met, which is a big step up from the occupation of shoemaker which we had him being on his marriage certificate !! In his case, it appear he started working as a 'Night Constable' in the 1820's, which was like a private police force, which was obviously a secondary evening/night job I am assuming to earn extra case to support his family, whilst still being a Shoemaker. He seems to have progressed in this role, to eventually becoming a well respected leader in that business, if the newspaper reports are to be believed. As the private police got rolled up into the Met he was made into a Superintendent in 1830.
Richard
Yes that was very interesting to read. My Robert Butcher was put down on his Marriage Certificate in 1840, as having a job as a Butcher. Then all of a sudden in the 1841 Census he is a Policeman. And then by around 1843, becomes a Police Sergeant. This explains to me that he could have actually joined the Police Force in 1835, as records in The National Archives suggest, and still carried on his job as a Butcher for 5/6 years at the same time.
That was one of the main things confusing me.
Thank you. :) ;)
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A police constable, Robert Butcher N225, shows up in the Tottenham area a few times from 1836, on The Old Baily website.
From 1840 a Robert Butcher N37 appears.
I have no idea wheather the same person can change numbers or not.
I had a look at the record at the National Archives website: MEPO4/333-338.
On there on image page 27, it states that Robert joined the Metropolitan Police, on the 25th of September 1835. And he died on the 10th of May 1852. I think one source for Robert's burial stated he was buried on the 5th of May 1852 in Tottenham. But I think this is probably a mistake in transcription, and may have been the 15th.
Anyway, going back to his service record:
Robert had the Warrant number of 10955. The list appears to be in alphabetical order. I can find no other Robert Butcher joining the Met police around this time.
I believe that they may well be the same person, this N225, and N37:
I looked in the Newspapers also, on The British Newspaper Archives. And I can find no reference in the papers to a Robert Butcher N37, before 1840. And there is no mention of a Robert Butcher N225 after 1840 either, that I can see.
But I also do not know if the same person can change numbers.
Thank you. :) ;)