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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Chapbrook on Sunday 02 July 17 22:07 BST (UK)
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Hi, I hope someone can advise me on this.
Briefly. I've traced my great uncle Albert Edward Chaplin bn 10 Mar 1888 Redhill through to his time with the Royal Engineers (he enlisted in Aldershot 27/9/1902) through to his discharge 14/4/1912. His online army records state that he attempted suicide 19th Jan 1912 at Ashtown Lodge, Castleknock on 19th Jan 1912.
He was subsequently discharged from the army on 14 Apr 1912 as unfit for further service. At some point between his suicide attempt and discharge he was committed to Richmond Lunatic Asylum in Dublin where he died (I think on 19th May the same year). I'm not sure if this was due to injuries resulting from the original attempt of if there was a second suicide attempt.
I have discovered that the asylum records for that period are still intact and can be sourced and I've been in contact with the National Archive of Ireland. However the Freedom of Information act requires me to satisfy several conditions, all of which I can do EXCEPT that of submitting his death certificate - but I just can't find one!
I've checked the GRO indexers, Ance*try, Family Search, FindMyP*st, Irish Genealogy etc but with no joy. This is deeply frustrating as I'm so near to being able to discover more about the circumstances of his commital, treatment and death plus details of where he was buried, yet unable to access them because I cannot obtain his death registration.
Can anyone suggest why this might be. He was English and had been serving in the British Army in Limerick/Cork - which I'm sure was part of Grt Britain at the time. Could it be that as he'd been discharged, the army no longer had responsibility for him but if that's so who would then be responsible for registering the death. My grandfather was his named next of kin but there is nothing in family papers to throw any light on this.
Can anyone help please?
Kind regards
Spence Chaplin
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There is a death of an Albert Chaplin in 1958 age 70, British Army, in Grangegorman mental hospital address Ashtown.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1959/04365/4132217.pdf
Maybe he didn't die when you thought...poor man if he was there all that time.
http://www.grangegorman.ie/Archive.html
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There is a death of an Albert Chaplin in 1958 age 70, British Army, in Grangegorman mental hospital address Ashtown.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1959/04365/4132217.pdf
Maybe he didn't die when you thought...poor man if he was there all that time.
http://www.grangegorman.ie/Archive.html
Hi Sinann (hope I have your name right)
!!!???!?!! Well, I'm absolutely shocked to discover this.
Firstly let me thank you for taking time and trouble in replying and sending me this bombshell!
I'd been on the Civil Records part of the website this came from but wouldn't have thought to check on the church records tab, I suppose as Albert wasn't local I assumed somehow that his family (my grandfather in fact) would have arranged for his body to have been returned to England. As it was none of this could apply as he was still alive!
Not only was it a false assumption on my part (assumption is a cardinal sin I know in Fam History research!) but also the online army records also incorrectly recorded that he had died. I suppose there is still a remote chance that the church record refers to someone different but everything does point to it being the same person.
Thanks to your digging I am now able to satisfy the final requirement of the Freedom of Information Act that should enable the authorities to release the asylum/hospital records.
For the last two years I've sat with the 'knowledge' that Albert had died in 1912 following his suicide attempt but as you say, the poor man was in hospital for almost 50 years! On the last page of his online army record a scrawled pencil note says 'Temporarily insane'!
If indeed it does transpire that he lived all these years I'll probably never find out why he languished there so long. I have no memory of my grandad ever mentioning anything of this sort although I doubt as a child anything would have been said in front of me but then my father never mentioned it either and I'm sure he would have done - perhaps he didn't know himself. I'm really hoping that the released papers will unlock some of these 'secrets'.
Once again many thanks to you for unearthing all this
Regards Spence Chaplin
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It's a Civil Registration record not a church record (see the top of the image), the words church records always comes up in the address I think because it links into the captcha which is held in the church records part of the site.
It is very sad if it turns out he was there for so long, but you have to bear in mind at that time there was a terrible stigma attached to any sort of metal illness and he had committed a crime so his family wouldn't have been allowed to help him. They may even have been told he was dead. He would have been better off going to prison at least then he had a chance of release at some point but it's highly likely once he was in the mental hospital he became institutionalized.
Sadly he is likely buried in Grangegorman, the graves are I believe unmarked.
I hope the records answer your questions and it turns out he only returned to the hospital later in life.
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Hi
Sorry yes, I see now it was a civil registration.
Interesting what you say about the possibility of the family being kept in the dark about his confinement. As it happens my grandad (Albert's brother) spent the majority of his working life as a mental orderly in Asylums first on the IOW and then his adopted city of Sheffield which adds a touch more pathos to all this.
As you say those times were much less enlightened than ours vis a vis mental health. Depending on how revealing the papers prove to be, I may provide an update on this thread.
Once again many thanks for your interest and assistance.
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It's a Civil Registration record not a church record (see the top of the image), the words church records always comes up in the address I think because it links into the captcha which is held in the church records part of the site.
It is very sad if it turns out he was there for so long, but you have to bear in mind at that time there was a terrible stigma attached to any sort of metal illness and he had committed a crime so his family wouldn't have been allowed to help him. They may even have been told he was dead. He would have been better off going to prison at least then he had a chance of release at some point but it's highly likely once he was in the mental hospital he became institutionalized.
Sadly he is likely buried in Grangegorman, the graves are I believe unmarked.
I hope the records answer your questions and it turns out he only returned to the hospital later in life.
Hi
Just wondered if you might be interested in hearing how my enquiries panned out.
Through FOI, I applied for and have now received copies of various records from Richmond Asylum/Grangegorman concerning my Grt Uncle, Albert Chaplin.
Sadly, he did indeed remain in Grangegorman and other mental hospitals until his death in 1958. That's an incredible 46 years after his committal. Amongst the papers were details of his next of kin along with their addresses. There was a copy of a rather sweet note my grandfather had written to the Asylum in 1915 enquiring about the progress of his brother. I imagine he received a reply but there is no record of it.
Then almost 20 years later letters were sent to my grandad and my grandad's sister informing them that Albert was temporarily being moved to another hospital ( I suspect for an operation on a hernia - the writing is quite faint). Then there are copies of 3 envelopes that had been marked and returned as either 'Gone Away' or Not Known at this address'. These were sent to the addresses they'd held from 20 years earlier! Unsurprising.
I can only conclude from this that the family had ceased making enquiries about him, if they had then surely more up to date addresses would have been held on his medical record. I'm puzzled and troubled by this as it isn't a very nice thought to contemplate that the family had abandoned him.
There was no reference amongst the papers of burial/cremation details.
Whilst I'm pleased to have discovered as much as I have (and thanks once again to you for setting me on the right path) I'm saddened to think of this man's lonely plight.
Cheers, Spence
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How sad a tale is that; but your great uncle may have been severely ill and not felt lonely. Thank you for sharing that, Spence; everyone loves to find out what resulted from a query.
Josey
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This thread is reminiscent of the tale of a very old friend of mine (still alive) who believed for much of his adult life that his father was dead. He had also been institutionalised for a very long time, though at least the son did get to meet him before he died.
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Thank you for coming back and telling us what you found.
Very sad, but we have to remember it was very different times back than.
His illness if known could have affected his nieces and nephews marriage prospects.
As his family couldn't be contacted at the time of his death it's very likely he was buried in the hospital's cemetary
You have given him back his place in the family, which I always think is one of the best things about doing genealogy.
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Poor man. I wonder if he was tried in court.
Attempting suicide was illegal and a punishable crime. The UK decriminalised suicide in 1961 and Eire followed suit in 1993.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1993/act/11/enacted/en/print
CRIMINAL LAW (SUICIDE) ACT, 1993
AN ACT TO ABOLISH THE OFFENCE OF SUICIDE
This Act shall come into operation one month after the date of its passing.
Suicide shall cease to be a crime.
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Poor man. I wonder if he was tried in court.
Attempting suicide was illegal and a punishable crime. The UK decriminalised suicide in 1961 and Eire followed suit in 1993.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1993/act/11/enacted/en/print
CRIMINAL LAW (SUICIDE) ACT, 1993
AN ACT TO ABOLISH THE OFFENCE OF SUICIDE
This Act shall come into operation one month after the date of its passing.
Suicide shall cease to be a crime.
Hi
Thanks for that link. I'm surprised how relatively recently it was decriminalised although a quick check online shows that it is still a crime in several countries outside Europe.
There was no reference in the asylum documents to suggest that he was charged with an offence. I do know though that his online army record refers to a Court of Inquiry held before he was discharged. (I assume that was an internal army investigation). Unfortunately, the result/outcome was not detailed amongst the other online records. Presumably, there will be a record of this held somewhere. I need to dig deeper!
Regards
Spence Chaplin
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Poor man. I wonder if he was tried in court.
Attempting suicide was illegal and a punishable crime. The UK decriminalised suicide in 1961 and Eire followed suit in 1993.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1993/act/11/enacted/en/print
CRIMINAL LAW (SUICIDE) ACT, 1993
AN ACT TO ABOLISH THE OFFENCE OF SUICIDE
This Act shall come into operation one month after the date of its passing.
Suicide shall cease to be a crime.
Hi
Thanks for that link. I'm surprised how relatively recently it was decriminalised although a quick check online shows that it is still a crime in several countries outside Europe.
There was no reference in the asylum documents to suggest that he was charged with an offence. I do know though that his online army record refers to a Court of Inquiry held before he was discharged. (I assume that was an internal army investigation). Unfortunately, the result/outcome was not detailed amongst the other online records. Presumably, there will be a record of this held somewhere. I need to dig deeper!
Regards
Spence Chaplin
I know of two people detained in England due to mental instability. Early this century my pal's son was brought before a court for being "troublesome" in a chemist shop. He'd been a regular soldier serving in the army but since arriving in civvy street his mother noticed a change in his behaviour The judge sentenced him to 6 months in jail and thereafter to be detained under the Mental Health Act. Fortunately he was discharged from the sanitarium after being treated for PTSD (shell shock).
The other instance was a married female cousin of my mother. Their generation was born at the outset of the 20th century. She'd had three children and had sunk into a depression when her husband and two doctors signed a document that put her into what was termed "the loony bin" when I was young. Her siblings thought she had what was termed "the baby blues" and after treatment they tried to get her released but in those days the husband had to sign the release papers and he refused to do so. During the following years the family visited her in the asylum and as time passed it became obvious to them that she had become confused and institutionalised and could never live an independent life in the outside world.
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Hi. Im a new member and came across your discussion of Grangegorman. I think i can beat your 46 years. My grandfather seems to have been held there for 55 years until 1986. Can you explain how you got access to your relatives records. I have emailed the grangegorman site with no luck. Did you get photocopies sent to you or did you visit Dublin?
Thanks for any help
Bernard
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https://foi.gov.ie/faqs/how-do-i-make-an-foi-request/
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Hi. Im a new member and came across your discussion of Grangegorman. I think i can beat your 46 years. My grandfather seems to have been held there for 55 years until 1986. Can you explain how you got access to your relatives records. I have emailed the grangegorman site with no luck. Did you get photocopies sent to you or did you visit Dublin?
Thanks for any help
Bernard
Hi Bernard
The link posted is the one that I followed during my search. The whole process seemed rather convoluted at the time and there were several conditions I had to satisfy to comply with the FOI requests, but with patience (and as long as records are in fact held for your grandfather) then you should eventually be able to see them.
In my case, the national archives told me that whilst they held the collection for the Richmond Lunatic Asylum, the hospital itself still acted as 'data controllers' and consequently I would have to submit my enquiry to them. They gave full contact details.
I must say that everybody I corresponded with at the National Archive and the hospital adminstrators were exceptionally helpful at all times. I wasn't even charged for the photo copies which they eventually sent!
Good luck in your search and if you want any further help please let me know
Regards, Spence Chaplin