RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Plug on Wednesday 05 July 17 17:12 BST (UK)
-
Henry was my maternal Grt Grt Grandfather a locksmith by trade and married to Ann Bolt in 1844.Their surname became Bolt Lettis. They had 4 children Ann Elizabeth Bolt Lettis 1846, Henry Bolt Lettis 1848, Mary Bolt Lettis 1851 and Elizabeth Sarah Bolt Lettis 1862.
I am trying to trace Ann Elizabeth and Elizabeth Sarah. One problem is in the census of 1861 and 1871, Henry Lettis is Henry Williams together with some of his children. Though in 1871 Henry his son has his marriage banns and he is Bolt Lettis and his father is Henry Lettis and his sister Ann Elizabeth is Bolt Lettis and a witness. She is also a witness in 1875 to her sister Mary.
As Mary was widowed she remarried in 1891 and her father is shown as Henry Williams deceased and one of the witnesses was an Annie Williams, could that be Ann E.
In the census of 1881 Henry and his wife are again Lettis and in that year Henry died and his name on the death certificate is Henry Lettice but that is just a misspelling.
How is it that Henry can change his name for the census and what happened to his daughters, did they marry and when did they die.
-
The name Bolt seems to have been added as an extra 'christian' name on the childrens birth registrations. It is obviously up to them how many of their names they use when completing forms or signing documents. It was quite common for a mothers maiden name to be added to childrens names.
Perhaps you could give us the census references where you have the family in 1861 & 1871 as Williams ;) When did you last have Ann E & Sarah on census
1861 -RG9/122 f60 p52
-
For 1871 I have RG10/246 page39.
Thanks Paul
-
For 1871 I have RG10/246 page39.
Thanks Paul
Sorry, I am not getting a result on that 1871 reference :-\
Who is living in the household
OK found it thanks ;D
RG10/246 folio 56 page 38 - Mansfield Place
Parents Henry & Ann with children Henry & Elizabeth. I had been wondering whether Elizabeth was with them and whether she could have been known as Sarah. ;D
Wife Ann Lettis died in 1882 to save anyone looking for her on next census
-
1871 36 Mansfield Place, St.Pancras
Henry Williams 62 Locksmith
Ann 52
Henry 23
Elizabeth 9
As the family lived in Market Street using both Lettis and Williams, then Mansfield Place (again using both names) I'm guessing that the name, Williams, was only ever used on the census form. Could Henry have been trying to avoid being found?
-
Rosie, I have on the 1851 census Henry and Ann Lettis with Ann Elizabeth age 5 and Henry age 3 and living at 23 Market Strt.
1861 Henry and Ann Williams with Henry age 13 and Mary age 10 living at 1 Haverstock Strt
1871 Henry and Ann Williams with Henry 23 and Elizabeth Sarah as on her baptism record living Mansfield Pl.
1871 Henry junior gets married and his sister Ann Elizabeth is a witness and they all have the name Lettis. With father shown as Henry Lettis.
Paul
-
Lily, an interesting theory about not being found, do you think as a locksmith he might have had some nefarious dealings.
In actual fact when Henry's daughter Mary(who was my Grt grandma) remarried in 1891after the death of her first husband ,she was then Mary Kennedy and her father was Henry Williams deceased as shown on the marriage banns and one of the witnessing was an Annie Williams. So the Williams name continued but what happened to Ann Elizabeth and her sister Elizabeth Sarah perhaps I shall never know.
Thanks for your interest
Paul
-
I would think if Henry was running away from something he would have moved out of London. ???
Have you compared the signatures of Ann E Lettis and Annie Williams :-\
-
Could Elizabeth Sarah have still been alive in 1939?
On her baptism in St Pancras, a date of birth is given - 24 March 1862
A search of the free index to the 1939 Register brings up
Elizabeth S. B. Davis born 24.3.1862, living in Wembley
After much fiddling about looking for the right Elizabeth Davis as "other household member" in Wembley, it appears that she was with
Charles S Cathcart, born 1893
May F (Florence M) Cathcart, born 1894
Likely marriage for those two
Sep 1925 Paddington 1a 65
Cathcart, Charles S.
Davis, Florence M.
Florence's death -
Dec 1977 Leighton B. 9 297
Cathcart, Florence May
d-o-b 30 June 1894
And her likely birth?
Sep 1894 Paddington 1a 67
Davis, Florence May
mother's maiden surname Williams
Something to investigate perhaps
John
-
John, I afraid you have lost me, yes Elizabeth Sarah could have been alive in 1939. I don't understand how you arrived at Elizabeth S B Davis and what is the 1939 Register.
Thanks for you interest
Paul
-
A free preview of the 1939 Register can be found on Find My Past.
If you click on the Advanced search, you're able to type in an exact date of birth.
Elizabeth Williams married Alfred Davis in 1890. Unfortunately the marriage is not online.
Alfred as about 5 years younger than Elizabeth, so she takes a few years off her age in the censuses.
A brilliant find John!
-
Hi
As Lily has said, the 1939 Register is on findmypast.
But on Rootschat we are not allowed to do look ups from it (as with the 1911 census), we can only quote from the free index.
You can read a bit more about it here
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/1939-register/
John
-
Lily and John, Lily first you say Elizabeth took some years off her age in some of the censuses I could not find her on any census. Can you please give me the years you found her.
John was that an inspired guess finding her on this 1939 Register and should I now send off for a marriage certificate for Elizabeth. Will she be Elizabeth Sarah Bolt Lettis or is that the million dollar question.
Thanks again Paul
-
It may be easier to follow Elizabeth through her husband on the censuses.
This is how they're transcribed:
1891 Paddington
Alfred Davis 1867 born Datchworth
1901 Paddington
Alfred Davis 1867 born Ruchworth
1911 Paddington
Alfred Davis 1867 Born Knebworth, Hertfordshire
Possible marriage: Islington 1890 Oct-Dec Vol.1b Page 655
Alfred Davis married either Jane Elizabeth Mason or Elizabeth Williams
I've been backwards, forwards and sideways on this family (you've no doubt done the same thing) but can't find any clue as to why Henry decided to change his name to Williams!
-
Yes I have gone round in circles and I think pretty much exhausted the subject. I will send for the marriage certificate otherwise I shan't sleep at night not knowing if I have the right lady. One last question I have signed up to ancestry for a few years now, you mentioned Findmypast, is one better than the other.
Thanks for all your help
Paul
-
Lily, just to let you know I now have a marriage certificate for Elizabeth Williams. She did marry an Alfred Davis, but not the one John had discovered, she was the one you had got written down. Her father is shown as Harry Williams, locksmith but that was one of the aliases that was used on one of the census. Her sister Mary my great grandmother was a witness and the address was one that seems to have been used by other family members.
Now to find her other sister Ann Elizabeth.
Thanks once more.
Paul
-
Glad you have a bit more of the family sorted. Thanks for letting us know. It's interesting to hear the follow ups.
Elizabeth and Alfred Davis had a daughter Florence May Davis in 1894. Florence May married a Charles S. Cathcart.
This is the couple that John found on the 1939 Register. They were living with Florence's mother, Elizabeth S.B. Davis (pre-marriage Elizabeth Sarah Bolt Williams). So John had put us on the right trail there.
Now, as you say, what happened to Ann?
-
Lily, unfortunately you have the wrong Davis family. In 1891 census my Alfred and Elizabeth had two children, twins, Lillian and Edith. In 1901 Edith is missing I presume having died, but they had two more children Alfred and Mary. In 1911 Lillian and Alfred are still living with their parents. I know I have the right family as the census information in 1891 showing Elizabths birth place as being Haverstock Hill, Hampstead ,London. However the person that then transcribed the actual census information had got London, Haverston Hill, Hampshire, England which is obviously wrong.
I apologise for contradicting you.
Paul
-
I don't mind being contradicted Paul. I'm used to it 😀
However, we're both together with this one.
Daughter, Florence May, is always shown as May - except when she married as Florence May to Charles Cathcart in 1925.
Florence is with the family you have in 1901 - May 6 years old.
In 1911 she is living away as a servent.
May Davis was one of the witnesses to Alfred Davis' marriage in 1919.
Ancestry has baptisms for the Davis children. Except for baby Edith who must have died before Lilian was baptised in 1892 - along with Alfred.
Florence May baptised 1894 and Louis Wilfred in 1896 (must be the 2nd child who died).
-
Lily could you point me in the right direction to view Alfred's wedding document to I think Elizabeth Roberts and where May is a witness. I could not find it. I looked for Church of England records.
Thanks
Paul
-
The marriage is on Ancestry
1919 South Lambeth
Married Hetty May Proctor
Father Alfred Davis taxi cab driver
-
Paul, have you tried the 1939 Register yet? The Preview is free on Find My Past. No need to be a member.
You can search seperately for Elizabeth S B Davis born 1862 and Florence M Cathcart born 1894.
-
Thanks Lily, I have the record and yes I have looked at 1939 Register.
Paul