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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: jhan on Thursday 06 July 17 21:42 BST (UK)
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Good evening all,
I'm hoping someone out these can help me. On my GGGrandmothers birth register (b.1865), her 'where born' reads, 'Bruce's Land, Mill's West Wynd, Dundee'. I have had a long look online and can find information on various 'Land's' in the city but I can't seem to find anything on Bruce's Land. I can find a little information on Mill's West Wind but it's all very vague. I may be looking in the wrong places!
Can anyone help? I'd love to know where in the city it is/was and any information about it.
Thank you in advance,
Jenni
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I think Mill's West Wynd should actually be.....
MILLARS WYND WEST SIDE
From 1865 Valuation Rolls on SP?
Annie
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On here as Miller's Wynd...
https://canmore.org.uk/site/search/result?NUMLINK=186688&view=map
Annie
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What was her address in the 1871 census?
What was her parent's address in 1861 before she was born?
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To follow on from Ruskie's question...
Can you please provide parents names & father's occupation as names & occupations can sometimes be easier to trace than addresses initially?
The VRs have nothing on Bruce's Land ::)
Annie
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John Wood's town plan of Dundee from 1821 shows Miller's Wynd as EAST Wynd. Next road west is Mid Wynd, then West Wynd and Stewart's Wynd.
I haven't found any mention of Bruce's Land yet. I wonder if it was a name in use locally rather than an "official" address? :-\ Or perhaps an old name which went out of favour, which is why I was looking at maps older than 1861. :-\
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Jhan,
Sorry if you find this offensive but..
Can you please post a 'snippet' with the address just to make sure it does say 'Bruce's Land' & not something similar but of course depending on the accent of the person giving/taking the information, could they have been Irish or other & 'Bruce' be 'Bryce' ???
Just trying to help :)
Annie
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Jhan,
Have you found the family in any census with the same address?
Did they have other children born at the same address?
I'm unsure if the VR Record of that year would reveal anymore than 'Millars/Miller's Wynd' but it may be worth checking out?
If I'd have known the name I would have had a look but there were far too many to take a chance.
Annie
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Funny you should mention that Annie. I was just wondering if the comma was moved we would have Bruce's Land Mills, West Wynd, Dundee, but your suggestion to check "Bruce" is a good one.
I
I am not sure where to look for landholders called Bruce, but if I understand it correctly, this is the meaning behind the "Somehting" Lands? I've seen "Lands" before in Scotland but generally in the ountryside, but that may be more to do with abodes I generally look for. :)
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Ruskie,
I have many relatives in different 'Lands' who were in Lanarkshire & Miners.
I understand what you mean, I believe the 'Lands' may have been named after the 'Owners'?
However, that theory doesn't work for me in Dundee as it wasn't a 'Mining' community i.e. I'm unsure of the possible origins?
It appears from reading between the lines it may have had something to do with 'Milling'?
Dundee had many different trades i.e. the occupation of Jhan's "GGGrandmother's" father could be very helpful?
Annie
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Ooops.... ;D
This is another apart from the VRs..
http://digital.nls.uk/directories/
Annie
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Ruskie,
I couldn't find a 'Bruce' in the Directories i.e. it's possible the surname of Jhan's ancestors may appear with the 'Bruce' address connection?
Annie
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Yes, I am hoping it might become clearer when Jhan returns with some names and addresses. I notice a lot of manufacturing on the Dundee maps (there are some excellent town plans on the NLS site). Doing a bit of googling I found a John Bruce, manufacturer in Dundee, but I couldn't see specific mention of any kind of business on any of the maps. Of course he may be unrelated to the Bruce of Bruce's lands .... :-\
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I only checked that one year on the VRs as I thought it best to get some further info. rather than assumption on blind searches.
The reason being the name Bruce's Land wasn't there i.e. other info. may be relevant to narrow things down.
As you mentioned Ruskie, it may simply have been a reference used by tenants referring to the Proprietor rather than a known landmark?
Annie
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Wow! Thank you so much for your replies. Here's me thinking everyone would be in bed so I could wait til morning to check lol
In answer to your questions...
Teresa Nicoll 26/01/1865
Parents...
William Nicoll, Sacking Weaver
Mary Nicoll m/s Simson(Simpson)
1871 Census
197 Scouringburn, Parish of Liff & Benvie
William 40 Mill Worker
Mary 40
Jane Ann 12 Mill Worker
Alexander 10 Scholar
William 8
Teresa 6
Mary 4
1861 Census (still working on)
Births of other children (Still working on)
I've not got a lot in this family yet as I'm just beginning to look properly into them and the name variants are endless!
Not insulted at all!! Will try and attach a screenshot. I've taken it to read 'Bruce's' as the 'r' looks like one written above in the word 'January'. Apologies if I put the commas in the wrong places, that's just where I felt they naturally should have been.
Thanks again!
Jenni
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Jenni, with the addresses, can I ask "what" Buildings it was on Blackness Road? I noticed Blackness Road on many of the Dundee town plans I looked at - it's close to Miller's Wynd.
Lots of Mill workers. ;D
Added: Yes, it does look like "Bruce's Land" ....
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I am not sure where to look for landholders called Bruce, but if I understand it correctly, this is the meaning behind the "Somehting" Lands? I've seen "Lands" before in Scotland but generally in the ountryside, but that may be more to do with abodes I generally look for. :)
In a mediaeval town, the street plan is usually a single street, widening in the middle to make space for the church and market. On both sides of the street there are houses, each one with a strip of ground behind it at right angles to the main street. Usually there is a lane or alley along each strip, or perhaps every pair of strips. Over time, the strips of ground get built on as demand for housing in the town increases, and the result is a narrow lane or alley with houses, sometimes several storeys high, on both sides of it. Sometimes the lane or alley is a dead end, and sometimes it has an exit at the other end. The word 'land' is applied to the lane or alley and the houses reached by it.
The Old Town of Edinburgh is a classic example of a mediaeval street layout - take a look at http://maps.nls.uk/view/74400026 - you will need to zoom in to see it at its best.
You can see a similar plan, albeit the main street layout is a little more complex, of Dundee http://maps.nls.uk/view/120816545 and there are lots more old street maps on the NLS web site.
In larger cities there can be many streets with lands along them, and the lands acquired names so that they could be distinguished from their neighbours.
A land can be named after the proprietor, or after a tenant-in-chief who rents the whole land from a landlord and lets the individual dwellings in it, or even after a prominent person who is the tenant of one dwelling in the land.
Here's another one - again you'll need to zoom in - showing Miller's Wynd, Mid Wynd and West Wynd. http://maps.nls.uk/view/74478928 all linking Perth Road and Hawkhill.
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It says '57 Brown's Buildings'. I have attached a screenshot.
I found the same family in 1851 (eventually!) in the Hilltown.
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jhan -just out of interest I see in the 1871 census their address is Scouringburn. This was at the bottom of Brook Street (my Gt. Grandmother was living there in the 1881 census.) If you google "Scouringburn" and go on to the Scotlands places website you will see photographs of it.
My late father was a Dundonian and from memory I remember him telling me that "Lands" were names given to sections of streets. This could explain your Bruce's Land.
Also, take a look at Photo Polis Old Dundee. I believe you can contact them via email so they may be able to answer your query. You could also try emailing Dundee City Archives. They can be very helpful.
Hope this helps a little.
Dorrie
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I wonder if the address on the birth certificate may have been wrongly recorded ? It does happen sometimes. Searching around I have found a MILNES WEST WYND which is near Brook Street and Scouringburn Court where they were in the 1871 census.
Just a thought.
Dorrie
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Jhan, Thanks for extra info.
Dorrie, That's a thought....
NICOLL MRS
Tenant Occupier
DWELLING HOUSE ATTIC MILNES WEST WYND EAST SIDE
LIFF AND BENVIE
1865
VR009800015-
I'm wondering if Teresa's BC had the district of 'St. Mary' on it?
Annie
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I wonder if the address on the birth certificate may have been wrongly recorded ? It does happen sometimes. Searching around I have found a MILNES WEST WYND which is near Brook Street and Scouringburn Court where they were in the 1871 census.
Very possible. I know a lot of people who spell their names Milne but pronouce them Mill.
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Possible...
NICOLL WILLIAM
Tenant Occupier
DWELLING HOUSE NO 2 MILNES WEST WYND WEST SIDE
LIFF AND BENVIE
1875
VR009800036-
Annie
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Excellent explanation about "Lands", thank you Forfarian. I was expecting Bruce's Lands to be larger than that, but it probably explains why it's not marked on any maps that we've found (so far). A co-incidence that you mention medieval street layouts - earlier I was looking at Bonnet Hill (heading north towards Forfar here http://maps.nls.uk/view/74400021 and wondering about the widened parts of it).
Can someone please direct me to Milne's West Wynd West Side? (Is that "West Wynd"? If so, what is "Milnes"?)
Sorry . A bit confused. :-[
PS. Thanks for Brown's Buildings Jhan. :)
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Excellent explanation about "Lands", thank you Forfarian. I was expecting Bruce's Lands to be larger than that, but it probably explains why it's not marked on any maps that we've found (so far).
It occurs to me that in older sasines, pieces of ground are often described as 'the lands (plural) of xxx' where xxx can be quite a large estate. When describing one of these built-up alleys in a town, it's always 'land' in the singular - Bruce's Land, or Anniesland (Glasgow) and so on, as opposed to 'Lands of Loyal' (Alyth) etc.
Not sure what Milne's is. I note the apostrophe in the document, Mill's West Wynd, implying that the west wynd belonged to Mill, whoever Mill (or Milne) may have been. (Very important little things, apostrophes, though unfortunately these days many people have no idea how to use them correctly.)
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Can someone please direct me to Milne's West Wynd West Side? (Is that "West Wynd"? If so, what is "Milnes"?)
Ruskie,
If I'm being honest (with Dorrie's thought in mind) I agree with her there may have been an error?
I'm unsure if 'Millar's Wynd West Side' & 'Milne's West Wynd West Side' are one & the same although given different on the VR Rolls?
At present all I know is that Blackness Road was listed under the District of St. Mary in Liff & Benvie.
There were other Districts beginning 'St' which I have come across in my research although I can't recall which names now.
It may/may not help knowing if Teresa was born St. Mary District?
Annie
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There were other Districts beginning 'St' which I have come across in my research although I can't recall which names now.
Dundee was divided into different registration districts at different times. These included St Andrew (1868-1951), St Clement (1868-1951), St Mary (1868-1918) and St Peter (1868-1918). There was a joint RD of St Mary and St Peter from 1919 to 1951.
As far as I can see, Liff Benvie and Invergowrie was a separate RD right through from 1855 to 1968. I don't know exactly where the parish/RD boundary went but perhaps one end of Blackness Road was in Dundee St Mary and the other end in Liff Benvie and Invergowrie.
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It's never straightforward is it Annie? ;D
Back to "Land/s" ..... it's been a while and I can't recall the specifics, but I have come across X's Land, appearing as quite a large estate, generally in more remote areas. I don't recall if they were Land or Lands though. It's all very interesting. :)
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My other thought is...
Blackness Road seems to be a very long road i.e. St. Mary District would cover a large area which possibly/hopefully includes that 'Wynd' by whichever name ::)
Annie
Red Alert....Dundee is a large City & was most likely very overcrowded?
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Some more info on our search of Dundee in the 1860's which might be helpful in clearing a few points up.
S.P. Index for Teresa Nicoll shows birth registered in Dundee Second District.
Milne's Wynd West is of Brook Street.
Miller's Wynd is between Hawkhill and Perth Road.
Yes, Annie Blackness Road ( known as the Blackie) is a very long Road and my Grandmother was born there in 1891.
This area of Dundee has changed greatly in the last 50 or so years. It holds very fond memories for me from my childhood and I was actually Baptised in Chalmers Church just of the Hawkhill and Blackness Road.
Dorrie
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Dundee was divided into different registration districts at different times. These included St Andrew (1868-1951), St Clement (1868-1951), St Mary (1868-1918) and St Peter (1868-1918). There was a joint RD of St Mary and St Peter from 1919 to 1951.
As far as I can see, Liff Benvie and Invergowrie was a separate RD right through from 1855 to 1968. I don't know exactly where the parish/RD boundary went but perhaps one end of Blackness Road was in Dundee St Mary and the other end in Liff Benvie and Invergowrie.
Ah, thanks Forfarian as I missed this on the RED ALERT I had earlier (I didn't scroll down) but that's good to know too!
Dorrie,
Thanks for confirming the 2 different places/areas, confusion over in that dept. ;D
So it looks as though 'Mill's West' is Milne's West Wynd, West Side, (off Brook Street) which will help Ruskie & the added dating info. from Forfarian!
Annie
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The birth record has '2 District of Burgh of Dundee'.
I can definitely see how Mill's might become Milnes and vice versa.
Jhan, Thanks for extra info.
Dorrie, That's a thought....
NICOLL MRS
Tenant Occupier
DWELLING HOUSE ATTIC MILNES WEST WYND EAST SIDE
LIFF AND BENVIE
1865
VR009800015-
I'm wondering if Teresa's BC had the district of 'St. Mary' on it?
Annie
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Do you have a map/list of which districts became which over time or know where I might find one?
Thank you all so much for your information. I'm from Dundee myself but have spent most of my ancestry time looking at other parts of the family and know lots about random parts of Fife, Glasgow and Aberdeen, but I am only just staring to look into my Dundonian side and its fascinating!
There were other Districts beginning 'St' which I have come across in my research although I can't recall which names now.
Dundee was divided into different registration districts at different times. These included St Andrew (1868-1951), St Clement (1868-1951), St Mary (1868-1918) and St Peter (1868-1918). There was a joint RD of St Mary and St Peter from 1919 to 1951.
As far as I can see, Liff Benvie and Invergowrie was a separate RD right through from 1855 to 1968. I don't know exactly where the parish/RD boundary went but perhaps one end of Blackness Road was in Dundee St Mary and the other end in Liff Benvie and Invergowrie.
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Jhan..
I can't help with maps re the districts but Ruskie may be able to help further when she comes on?
"The birth record has '2 District of Burgh of Dundee"
I have a feeling that although the births on the same page were recorded in the same district that possibly the Blackness Road area was divided depending on the numbering as to which district?
Annie
I have 2 in my own tree born 3 Blackness Road & 13 Blackness Square but they're recorded in St. Mary District which appears to be the south end (heading to the Tay Bridge)?
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http://www.talkingscot.com/rds/city-rds-dundee.htm#top%20of%20page
I just found this! It shows the district over the years and says which districts became which. Very useful!
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Jhan I cannot find anything online so perhaps you would be better contacting Dundee City Archives
archives@dundeecity.gov.uk Telephone 01382 434494
Do you still live in Dundee?
Dorrie
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I live in County Durham now, but go home regularly to visit family. Im home in a few weeks and I think ill be spending some time wandering the streets round Milnes West Wind thanks to everyones help! ;D
Jenni
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I don't think those places will exist now but an email may even get you a pic or other interesting info?
I have plenty of Durham connections in my tree too :D
Annie
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I've managed to find Milne's West Wynd (Its just down from the Jute Mill Museum, Verdant Works, which is handy as I was already planning a visit there!). Google maps shows a mixture of new buildings and derelict buildings so I might just have a little explore one day and see what I see. I love being able to visit where my family lived!
Oooh, cool! I am in Consett. Love it down here.
Jenni
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I've managed to find Milne's West Wynd (Its just down from the Jute Mill Museum, Verdant Works, which is handy as I was already planning a visit there!). Google maps shows a mixture of new buildings and derelict buildings so I might just have a little explore one day and see what I see. I love being able to visit where my family lived!
Oooh, cool! I am in Consett. Love it down here.
Jenni
Hi, I believe this story may be of interest (though it is quite sad). It looks like these buildings are located between East and West Milne's Wynd.
https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/plans-demolish-historic-dundee-jute-mill-student-flats/
Perhaps there is some info out there on these old 'Queen Victoria Works'? I haven't looked myself yet.
Jill.
Added: Here is the Canmore link; https://canmore.org.uk/site/68113/dundee-203-brook-street-queen-victoria-works
Perhaps it may shed some light somewhere.
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The plan to demolish the Mill is very sad, and what they propse to build there sounds revolting. (I bet that won't be standing in almost 200 years time!) >:(
Same old story - if developers want planning permission to develop a site, leave it for years to decay and then harp on about how derelict it is. Makes my blood boil! >:(
Though I prefer buildings to be kept as original as possible, even if they had kept the shell of the buidling with a sympatetic division into flats inside would have been preferable. :-\
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The plan to demolish the Mill is very sad, and what they propse to build there sounds revolting. (I bet that won't be standing in almost 200 years time!) >:(
Same old story - if developers want planning permission to develop a site, leave it for years to decay and then harp on about how derelict it is. Makes my blood boil! >:(
Though I prefer buildings to be kept as original as possible, even if they had kept the shell of the buidling with a sympatetic division into flats inside would have been preferable. :-\
Sadly, this is very typical in the area. They managed to restore Morgan Academy after it was gutted by fire around 2001. Don't see why they can't do the same with this place.
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I think it's a similar story everywhere. :(
It is probably cheaper to demolish and rebuild, and more profits into the pockets of developers. It always sad to lose your heritage ....
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Jenni,
There are a multitude of late 19th century newspaper articles which mention Milne's West Wynd most of them involving criminal acts including lots of assaults on women. I was born in Milnbank Road and as a child I would ask my mother to walk up Rosefield Street and down the Blackness Road rather than walk down Larch street or Brooks street into town. I found that whole area totally depressing - it really was grim.
Jen
PS cutting from the Dundee Courier 12 February 1875
Edit:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/tags/juteworks/interesting/
the above link takes you to photos that link with jute...Milne's East Wynd, Polepark, Brooks St, Douglas St, Edwards St, Guthrie St - all are close to where your relatives lived.
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I was born in Milnbank Road and as a child I would ask my mother to walk up Rosefield Street and down the Blackness Road rather than walk down Larch street or Brooks street into town. I found that whole area totally depressing - it really was grim.
Jen
Hi Jen,
My first flat was actually in Milnbank Road. This was around 2003. I always thought the same about Brook Street even as recently as that. It felt very depressing walking to town up that road. Something about it has never sat right with me.
Jill.
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Jen,
Thanks for that article! It seems to be the correct combination of names, or a helpful coincidence!
Jenni
Jenni,
There are a multitude of late 19th century newspaper articles which mention Milne's West Wynd most of them involving criminal acts including lots of assaults on women. I was born in Milnbank Road and as a child I would ask my mother to walk up Rosefield Street and down the Blackness Road rather than walk down Larch street or Brooks street into town. I found that whole area totally depressing - it really was grim.
Jen
PS cutting from the Dundee Courier 12 February 1875
Edit:
http://www.flickriver.com/photos/tags/juteworks/interesting/
the above link takes you to photos that link with jute...Milne's East Wynd, Polepark, Brooks St, Douglas St, Edwards St, Guthrie St - all are close to where your relatives lived.
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Thanks for posting the flicker link Jen I had not seen that particular one before.
It was interesting to see Taylor's Lane as my Gran, her parents and siblings were at Number 40 in the 1911 census. Her youngest brother was born there in 1908.
Thanks again,
Dorrie
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Dorrie, have you seen the photos of Dundee from the air in the 1930s? (you need to register (FREE) to zoom in and see the details of the photos). This one is particularly telling of the atrocious living conditions.
https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/SAW014833
Attached photo is of Ann Street where my grandparents lived they were moved out into the (now demolished) multi which you can see in the background . I used to think my Grandparents had a great house as they had a pletty you could play out on :)
Jen
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Again, thanks Jen I will register and take a look that site too.
Ann Street up the Hilltown. The lady who is my Avator - Mary Malcolm, my great grandmother was born at the top of the Hilltown and lived all her life in various streets there ending up in Hill Street.
Like you I used to love the old streets in Dundee. My grandparents lived in the Hawkhill and I would visit my great granddad in Isles Lane. I also had a great uncle and aunt who lived in Polepark and had a pletty. Wonderful memories too of the old Overgate - buster stalls and Greenhills.
Happy days.
Dorrie
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I didn't know these existed (but should have!). There are 16 street indexes from the 1861 census that have been digitised and are made available as pdf files. Dundee is included in the list ;D
Jen
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/guides/census-records/1861-census
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Just to add,
Surname Prenames Date of Birth Birthplace Residence Admission Date Number Father's Name Mother's Name
Morgan Patrick Dundee Land Mills East Wynd.4th Feb 1861 02/0573 Henry Morgan Mary MacKay or Morgan
Mitchell Hugh Ross 15th Jan 1888 Dundee 6 Milns East Wynd, Dundee 23rd Apr 1897 07/0129 James Mitchell Ann Mitchel
McGregor John Dundee Milne East Wynd, Dundee. 20th May 1878 05/0370 William McGregor Isabellla McGregor
Cannon Patrick 37 Bruces' Land, South Church St. Lochee Dyer County Leitrim Married 3 Mar. 1863 1787
Myles John Dundee Overgate, Bruces Land, Dundee. 1870? 04/1413 Thomas Myles Mary Martin
and just to further confuse the issue,
129 Turnpike Road Bruces land John Russell Head Marr 48 House Joiner Fifeshire Cupar
Regards
Malky