RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: kitch59 on Friday 07 July 17 22:45 BST (UK)
-
Hi guys,
looking for a little help, i'm a little stuck with one of my rellies, can anyone help with information on a William Shuter, no D.O.B. presume he lives in Birmingham, no parents for him. i have spent hours trawling through Ancestry for information on him, but for some reason i can't make any headway, i find some possible matches then second guess myself.
i have him married to my grandmother Doreen Kate Ogborn in 1918
any help would be appreciated,
thanks wayne
-
1922 Living at Gt Colmore Street with wife Doreen. Source: Midlands Electoral Registers.
Did he serve in WW1?
-
Scobie, i don't know anything about him, if he served, don't know his age or birth date, not even sure of his death date, he is just a complete blank for me, i have some records from ancestry, but am unsure if they are him or not, so i don't want to use or quote them
-
FreeBMD has eleven children with father's name Shuter and mother's name Ogborn born in Birmingham between 1921 and 1939.
-
thank you, i have that information, it's his details i'm struggling with, where he came from?, i suspect he came from London way, but can't be sure
-
Doreen K is on the 1939 register in Birmingham but doing a basic search I can't find a William living with her.
You really need the marriage certificate which will give his age and occupation, and his father's name. Without it we are just guessing. They must have moved to Warwickshire after their marriage in Worcestershire. I see Doreen Kate was with her parents in 1911 born Leicestershire. So she moved around
William Shuter's birth date needs to be found.
-
it looks like the way to go crisane, anything to do with william draws blanks or possibilities but not a lot of definates
-
He isn't the William Shuter who died in 1957 Birmingham registration district as his probate gives his wife as Norah. I think they married in 1933.
-
not sure crisane, i don't have history on him, most of the older rellies have gone now and information is sketchy from the rest of us
-
Midland registers for 1950 & 1955
Doreen with possibly grown up children and Joseph Worton
No William
Address 3 Bertha Buildings, Birmingham
-
Something that might help - I have picked up a marriage on Ancestry for them on the "England and Wales Civil Registration Marriage Index" - VOLUME 6D Page 11
Reg. Jan, Feb, Mar. 1918 at Kings Norton, Worcestershire.
Also a 1911 census entry, in Birmingham for Doreen - with her parents and siblings.
I have taken screen shots of them, if you PM me your email addres I can send them to you, don't think we're allowed to post them on here.
-
An interesting entry on the 1918 Absent Voter's list:
103 Heeley Rd. Selly Oak:
Bert A.T. Ogborn
William Shuter Pte. 34474 No. 6 FA RAMC.
Unfortunately no service/pension records for him survived.
Was awarded 15 Star, BW & V Medals.
As you know there are a few William Shuter's in B'ham so the marriage cert. is the way to go.
The only clue re his age is that he went overseas 20/1/15. Officially he should have been 19 by this time, but he might have lied about how old he was.
Also he would have been 21 by 1918 as this was the minimum voting age.
As you probably know there are 3 on the 1901 census but only 2 were registered both 1898 B'ham.
The 3rd. appears to be the illegitimate son of Emma Shuter.
William Shuter 56
Emma Shuter 52
Emma Shuter 21
Edwin Shuter 16
Thomas Shuter 13
May Shuter 10
William Shuter 3 G/son.
1901: RG13; Piece: 2888; Folio: 144; Page: 16
Emma Shuter married in 1904 but no William with her.
Mother also Emma appears in 1911 but no William with her either.
The only William that appears in 1911 is the son of James & Eliza Shuter nee Rathbone.
1901: RG13; Piece: 2889; Folio: 46; Page: 33
-
well after some digging in a bag of bits left by my mother i found a copy of William and Doreens marriage cert, it lists William as 23 in 1918 and a soldier, his father is Alfred Shuter a carpenter.
and the address at the time is 103 Heeley rd
I had a search of the 1901 census but could not find an Alfred Shuter with a 5-6 year old son called William, any suggestions to get the brain working, feeling frazzled at the moment.lol
wayne
-
There is an Alfred Shuter age 23 with his parents William and Ann in 1881 census born Birmingham. Both William and Alfred are carpenters. RG11 piece 3084 folio 83 page 71.
I haven't followed him through the census as yet.
-
He's with his wife Fanny and children in 1891 RG12 Piece 2435 Folio 104 Page 4
I can't see him in 1901 as yet
In 1911 he seems to be in Worcestershire. You need to look at this census record to determine who is with him. We are not allowed to give details.
-
Without anything to back it up it may be a case of William being the illegitimate son of Emma Shuter & Alfred Shuter. The 2 that were registered are both from married couples neither father being Alfred.
I can't see a connection between the 2 Shuter families but I can't see it as a case of making up a father's name as he actually existed.
The other scenario is that the William that appears in 1911 is the son of James & Eliza Shuter. James is a carpenter. He may have been known as Alfred.
-
I think that James and Eliza's son is the William who married Norah Wakelin in 1933 - names his father as James, and one witness is Edith Shuter (Edith Shuter Mmn Rathbone registered 1904 Aston district).
Alfred Shuter married Fanny Cooksey in Aston district in 1880.
Shuter children registered with Mmn Cooksey:
Bertha 1880 Aston district (died 1881 Solihull)
Alfred Frederick 1882 Solihull district
Thomas 1884 Aston district (died 1884 Aston)
Frank 1885 Aston district (GRO index shows Mmn as Cookley)
Lucy Mabel 1887 Aston district (died 1889 Aston)
Lilian 1891 Aston district
Fanny Davis 1893 Aston district
Elsie Theodora 1896 West Bromwich district
Gascoigne Leopold 1898 West Bromwich district
Arthur Henry 1900 West Bromwich district
In 1901 Fanny, Alfred (junior) and Frank are recorded as boarders in the household of Mary A Thompson (Ancestry have their surname indexed as Shaar ). Fanny says she is married.
I can't see Fanny D, Lilian, Elsie or Gascoigne in 1901, but Elsie Theodora at least must be somewhere because she shows up in 1911.
Arthur Henry Shuter aged under 9m appears in Aston as the adopted child of George Harry and Jessie Davies.
Gascoigne Leopold Shuter appears to exist only as a birth registration. I wonder whether he, or someone else might have decided that he should have a rather less flamboyant name - William perhaps?
-
Thanks guys,
lots to ponder over, it should keep me occupied for a while, lol
-
Sorry, probably not Gascoigne Leopold.
Fanny, Alfred Frederick, Frank, Lilian, Elsie Theodora and Gascoigne all found their way to New Zealand. Gascoigne left from Southampton on 16 June 1921.
-
Gascoigne served in WWI - he's on medal rolls as Gascoyne Leopold Sheeter of the Royal Army Service Corps
Might also be worth noting that his address when he migrates is in Llandudno
-
The only info. about him is mainly from himself. Born c. 1895 & father is Alfred Shuter a carpenter this according to his marriage.
He first appears on the AV list 1918 living with the Ogborn's then in 1922 with Doreen at Gt. Colmore St.
They then disappear until 1935 when Doreen appears on the ER without William also 1950 & 55 even though they had children all in B'ham up to 1942.
No birth or death found.
Any ideas ?
The only scenario I can come up with now the others have been de-bunked is that he was the illegitimate son of Alfred but registered under the mother's name & appears on the census under that. He then changes his name to Shuter at joining the Army.
My OH's uncle did just that. Fortunately there were plenty of people still around that knew it.
-
Doreen is with Joseph Worton at least from 1930, when she is registered to vote as Doreen Kate Worton, along with Joseph at 22 Dulwich Grove, Perry Barr.
-
Doreen Kate was in two relationships, with william and joseph that i know, the start of this thread was to find out more about William, and i thank you guys for your input, it has helped a lot, i was a bit too tunneled visioned, just having a different perspective works
-
Unfortunately no closer to finding him.
-
If we assume that William was truthful about his father's details when he married Doreen, then I think that Alfred Shuter, carpenter and disappearing husband of Fanny looks like the best candidate.
He is probably the Alfred Frederick Shuter registered in 1860, mother's maiden name Davis.
There is a marriage in 1842 in West Bromwich district of William Shuter; Ann Davis appearing on the same page as per the FreeBMD index. There are some trees on Ancestry which agree that William Shuter married Ann Davis, although no one seems to have a marriage register copy. They also agree that Alfred Frederick is their son, but have Alfred's wife's name as Fanny Daisey. There is no evidence for this actually being her name.
Although Alfred does not always use his middle name (eg when he married), his death in 1937 is registered with both names.
I have not been able to find Alfred in 1901. It appears likely that he had already left his wife and family by then. He may perhaps be with a woman named Lettie Hill.
Alfred and Lettie Shuter baptised a daughter named Lily at St James, Handsworth on 19 February 1908. They live at an address in Alfred Street. Alfred is a carpenter.
The birth of Lily Shuter, Mmn Hill was registered in March Q 1908 in West Bromwich district.
Lily is not with her parents in 1911, but as she grew up and married a William Cook in 1932, she must be somewhere. (She shows up in Smethwick 1939 living on the same street as Lettie (whose name appears as Shirter. Lettie died in 1968)
The only other Shuter birth registered between 1890 and 1910 with Mmn Hill is a Cornelius in June Q 1895 in Birmingham. I can't see any likely Shuter - Hill marriage.
No sign of Cornelius anywhere after 1895 (not even in New Zealand!), until a Cornelius Shuter death is registered in Worthing district in 1968. He is aged 72.
The National Probate Calender for 1969:
SHUTER Cornelius otherwise William of 35 North La East Preston Littlehampton Sx died 14 February 1968 Administration London
-
He may perhaps be with a woman named Lettie Hill.
That would account for the curious 1911 entry.
The only other Shuter birth registered between 1890 and 1910 with Mmn Hill is a Cornelius in June Q 1895 in Birmingham. I can't see any likely Shuter - Hill marriage.
SHUTER Cornelius otherwise William
Is this our missing William.?
I think it is. Right name, right age & right father.
I think the 1911 census contains a lot of misinformation. It's quite possible Cornelius/William & Lily are there but deliberately left off.
-
what does Mmn mean
-
Mother's maiden name.
-
lol, thanks, (bangs head on the wall for not guessing)
-
I think this info is as close as you will get to it being William son of Alfred.
-
They also agree that Alfred Frederick is their son, but have Alfred's wife's name as Fanny Daisey. There is no evidence for this actually being her name.
[/i]
makes sense of 1911, where I think Alfred and Fanny's daughter Fanny D is listed as Daisy
-
makes sense of 1911, where I think Alfred and Fanny's daughter Fanny D is listed as Daisy
Yes, she is Fanny Daisy on her birth registration, and on her death registration (married name Ashmore). I was struggling to remember why I put 'Fanny Davis' in my earlier post, but the baptism register (Aston-juxta-Birmingham) shows her quite clearly as 'Fanny Davis' Shuter.
(I don't think it is a sound reason for supposing that her mother's maiden name was Daisey however. It would be quite easy for those tree owners to see what it really was.)
-
thanks guys, much appreciated