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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Coomera on Sunday 09 July 17 02:59 BST (UK)
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I have run into a brick wall with this in-law. The only document I can get is a 1913 marriage cert at Scarborough, Yorks where she is given as Ellen Atkin, age 23. Father James Atkin. Problem is there is no Ellen Atkin born in 1890. James Atkin is also elusive, the only entry that fits is the 1881 census where he is a ship's master, docked at Hull. On the marriage cert there is a witness: Elizabeth Wilkinson. One of Ellen's grandchildren tells me that Ellen was born out of wedlock to Elizabeth's sister but raised by Elizabeth and husband Joseph who was a solicitor (or similar) in York. Ellen went to school at Harrogate so this seems possible. It is likely that James Atkin was the biological father and took over his daughter when he retired and she assumed his name. I can't find Joseph in York and would like help in finding the marriage of Elizabeth and Joseph, so that we can get Eliza's maiden name and so trace her sister who would have registered Ellen's birth - in her own name presumably. I would also like help with James Atkin, birth, death, anything. Ellen and her five children are all deceased.James Atkin managed to avoid all the census', including the 1911. There are problems with Ellen's husband, Arthur, but will come to him after we have sorted Ellen out.
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There is a marriage between..
Joseph Atkin and Elizabeth Caygill. 1898. York.
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Did Ellen have an occupation on the marriage certificate, and have you found her on any of the censuses?
There are Ellen Atkins born in 1889/1890 - just not in Yorkshire.
Who gave you the name of Joseph Wilkinson?
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Hi
Yorkshire Gazette 29th May 1886
Marriage
Wilkinson-Atkin
On Tuesday the 25th inst at the parish church Matlock by the Rev W R Melville, rector, Joseph Wilkinson, solicitor of York to Elizabeth Atkin daughter of James Atkin of Whalley, Lancashire.
Cathy
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1891 census gives Joseph Wilkinson, solicitor, age 67, with Elizabeth age 35 born Church Fenton.
Added;
There is a death in 1900, York, for a Joseph Wilkinson age 76.
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Ancestry has Elizabeth in 1861 living in Church Fenton with parents James and Margaret and siblings John E and William, but image very faint and no surname for family originally given.
Added:
In 1871 the family are in Tadcaster district with children Elizabeth, John E, William, James Henry, Alfred, Albert Robert, Tom, and a female baby of 2 weeks.
The baby is Margaret A Atkin in 1881 census.
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We cannot quote the 1911 census, but suggest you look up who Margaret A Atkin is living with in 1911.
However, the Ellen Atkin born in Blackburn in 1890 has mmn Feeney.
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Margaret is a servant in Blackburn in censuses.
1911 indexes shows Margaret Ann Atkins born Ulleskelf, Yorks still in Blackburn.
There is an Ellen Atkin born abt 1890 Blackburn in the indexes.
Sorry chemist, posts clashed. We are allowed to post what is in the indexes but no more.
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I have problems with indexes and which bits can be tied together or quoted etc.
This marriage for Ellen's parents?
Marriages December quarter 1883
James Atkin Blackburn 8e 665
Margaret Feeney Blackburn 8e 665
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Yes I have found that family and wonder if Ellen in 1911 indexes is that Ellen.
The only birth I found was Atkin/Feeney which would not fit with Margaret Ann.
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These look like Atkin/Feeney births:
Albert Atkin Feeney June quarter 1886 Blackburn
John William Atkin Feeney June quarter 1887 Blackburn
Walter Atkin Feeney December quarter 1888 Blackburn
Added:
Assuming James was father, and Margaret Ann aunt, not Elizabeth born to unmarried Mother.
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The age doesn't for Margaret A.
Here she is in Darwen in 1901 with her parents James and Margaret but no Ellen.
I can't find Elizabeth Wilkinson in 1901 either
1901 3908/118/15
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I think James' occupation on the marriage certificate would be useful.
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Family living in Haslingen in 1891:
James Atkin 29 Blacksmith Blackburn
Margaret Atkin 30
James T Atkin 6
John W Atkin 3
Ellen Atkin 1
James T wrong?
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I am trying to find them in 1901.
I am inclining towards this family but not enough evidence yet is there?
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Ancestry has the family in 1901 as Artthen
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Thanks ;)
No Ellen ...
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The OP says Ellen went to school in Harrogate, so she could be there in 1901.
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I have tried that but she could be hidden.
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What about Nellie Atkin 11 yrs birth place Unknown at school in York.
1901 4440/50/8
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Other posts give a little more information, James Atkin as down as a mechanical engineer on the marriage certificate (could be an Implement Maker?) and ellen was thought to have been born with the surname Wilkinson.
Cathy
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Yupp.
:)
Added:
To Nellie.
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Which posts, please, Cathy?
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Well, chempat. That's a waste of an hour or so ;)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=757766.0
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Yes.
The garden beckons....
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I suppose though we have presented a valid argument for Ellen daughter of James and Margaret Feeney which might not have been researched.
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Well, much to digest. No, Ellen had no occupation on marriage, not until 1930 in fact. Re James: I liked him as a Master Mariner as he does not appear in the census apart from 1881 when he was in port. If he worked out of Hull then retirement to Scarborough would be logical. I also like the 1891 census giving the ages of Joseph & Eliza as I know that she lived into the forties and died in Lytham during WW2.
The marriage of Joseph Wilkinson & Elizabeth Atkin (father James) ticks too many boxes to be a coincidence. However, the fact that Ellen was married under the name Atkin indicates that she was not the product of Joe & Eliza's marriage, so the suggestion that she was born to a sibling of Eliza does hold water. It may be that after Joseph died that Eliza could not afford keep Ellen so she (or both of them) lived with James in Scarborough and James was passed off as Ellen's father rather than her grandfather. This sibling of Eliza is the one to look for I think.
John.
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Simple things are best.
She was married under Atkin, therefore she was born under Atkin (birth reference given).
Her father's occupation on the marriage certificate was implement maker or engineer - NOT master mariner.
His name was James (from marriage certificate)
Ellen was born to James Atkin and Margaret Feeney (in Blackburn), Census 1891 for family quoted.
Ellen's Father, James Atkin, is the son of James Atkin and the brother of Elizabeth Atkin who marries Joseph Wilkinson. (1871 census quoted previously.)
As Joseph and Elizabeth Wilkinson did not have children, they may have shown extra interest in their niece.
Quote 'This sibling of Eliza is the one to look for I think.'
You mean the sibling of Elizabeth, and that is precisely what we have found for you.
Next time you post any query, could you please reference any additional information that is in your previous postings, not leave it to cath151 to point out?
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Hi coomara,
I agree with chempat. This is from your other thread.
Thanks for all the replies - a huge help. I think the school would be The Mount School - it seems most likely, and that there are just the boarders shown. Ellen was 23 when she married in 1913, father: James Atkin, Mechanical Engineer. All her children are now dead and much of the info is family chat, but she was reputed to have been born in Lancashire and her birth name was Wilkinson. One of the witnesses at the wedding is Elizabeth Wilkinson and Ellen named her first daughter Elizabeth. Atkin seems to have paid her an allowance and left her money in addition to her taking his name - seems like the actions of a father? I am following up on Arthur, thanks.
What information do you have re the support from James Atkin. It looks to me that he was her real father and she was educated by her aunt.
Is there an address on the marriage certificate?
Heywood
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Is this Elizabeth?
Probate record:
Elizabeth Wilkinson, born about 1855, died 18th November 1937 - address is St Annes on Sea. She is a widow and probate was granted to Margaret Ann Atkin, spinster.
See earlier posts re Margaret Ann and check 1911 census as advised by chempat.
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Well, I started a post and it suddenly vanished. I can't find it anywhere so hope this is not a double up. Thank you - I now have a clear path to follow and should have no difficulties. My apologies for not referring to my previous post - realize this was an error on my part.
Now, Ellen's husband - Arthur Burke. I have no problems with his history which goes back to 18th.century Ireland. Born into a Preston mill worker family but chose to be a Draper's Asst. First child born 1914 at Lytham. Joined the navy late 1915, discharged early 1916 (medical grounds). 2nd child born early 1918 at Blackburn, Arthur a commercial traveller in ladies' clothing. 1922, the whole family living at Cuckfield, West Sussex, Arthur a manufacturer's agent. Three girls born, 1922, '24, '26. Just after the birth of the younger child Arthur leaves his wife of 13 years, his five children, and is never seen or heard of again. He even neglected to register the birth of his youngest daughter. I have checked the shipping records but he seems not to have left the country and also the 1939 survey with little success.Have not checked if he was a guest of her majesty. The navy added his mother's maiden name to make him Arthur Taylor Burke, but only one of the children used this and none of the girls.
So, whatever happened to Arthur Burke? Of course, this is not easy but I have great faith in Roots Chat to solve the very difficult! John.
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You have neglected to state his year of birth.
From other posts, Arthur Burke here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=757766.msg6079159#msg6079159
and here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=755987.0
These are Arthur Burke births:
Births Jun 1890
Arthur Burke Haslingden (so fits with DOB from another post)
Births Dec 1890
Arthur Burke Wolverhampton
Births Mar 1891
Arthur Burke Warrington
but not Preston?
Have you cross-referenced all possible deaths?
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Just to clarify, father Edward was the Preston mill worker.
Arthur was born Accrington, June quarter, 1890 and registered Haslingden.
It is interesting re the births of the daughters in Cuckfield. I can see the two you refer to in registrations, but not a third. You say he 'neglected' to register the birth but the mother could have registered the birth. Were the couple definitely together at the time?
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Sorry, yes he is the Accrington Arthur Burke. his DOB was 9.3.1890.
Regarding Cuckfield I only had this by word of mouth, but the third daughter (Violet) was born 1926 and when she applied for her OAP there was no record of her, which caused some problems! Whether Arthur copped the blame for not registering her, as he was no longer around, or if it was just an oversight it is hard to say. Certainly Ellen, having not long having given birth and with three children under five plus the two boys, would be forgiven if she neglected to do it, especially as her husband had just left her. The girls, who did not use the names that were registered to them, always claimed that their father did not register them under the names agreed with Ellen. john.
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I can't see a likely death for him and even if he was in an institution of some kind, there would still be a death registration I think.
There is a newspaper report 1923 but I don't have access where Arthur Taylor Burke seems to be involved in an assault in Cuckfield.
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You say Violet was not registered.Is it a coincidence then,that a similar name* Burke mmn ,Wilkinson,is registered in Leeds in 1926?
* in case this is a different person and still alive.
Regards
Roger
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Perhaps it is a coincidence as there is another Burke mmn Wilkinson birth in Leeds in 1928 at least.
I won't give the full name as they may still be alive.
Regards
Roger
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Roger,
Mother's maiden name would be Atkin. The other two girls were registered in Cuckfield.
Heywood
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Yes,thanks Heywood,obviously a "senior moment".Apologies.Original amended to remove name.
Regards
Roger
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I just didn't want you to spend time searching the wrong name :)
I wonder if the children were baptised?
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No, Violet was never registered, as she found when she tried for her pension (or it may have been a passport) and she did not exist. She usually went by the name Vivian (its OK, she has been dead for years and had no children).
Wow! this report of an assault involving Arthur Taylor Burke is a real gamechanger and makes you wonder why they left the bustling cotton towns to bury themselves in rural Sussex in the first place. I lived in W.Sussex in the 60's and it was still pretty bucolic even then. I will have a try at this but must confess never had much luck with newspaper reports - just one in my wife's family and he was an entertainer. Arthur must have been around up to late '25 to early '26 for him to have fathered his last daughter. Hope some one can crack this now that we have this sniff of success. john.
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There is a 1925 snippet in which the son Arthur Donovan Burke is found guilty of stealing,and his father Arthur Taylor Burke of receiving.Interestingly,he is quoted as saying he stole it "because he did not want his daddy to suffer".I notice the son's birth registration is Arthur Donovan Joseph Wilkinson Burke.Judging by the 1939 register it was not his only offence.
Regards
Roger
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Wow! thanks despair, this quite something. I started this project to satisfy the curiosity of the four grandchildren to whom Arthur was just a name, there is not even a photograph, and from whom they inherited a quarter of their genes. Ellen & Arthur were living at Hilpshire (just north of Blackburn) before they moved south, so this would also be worth checking for unsocial acts leading to the move south. many thanks, john.
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I have now found further snippets
1937:Arthur Donovan Joseph Raymond Peter Wilkinson Burke("an artist" aged 19).presumably Raymond Peter as born,and his brother Arthur Donovan Joseph Wilkinson Burke ("a traveller,aged 25) of Harrow Weald are charged with an offence involving a loaded pistol.
1949:Arthur Donovan Joseph Wilson Burke under the alias Richard Wilson is again in court.The snippet reads as if he had done film work,was an RAF pilot in WW2 and helped manage a family business,but I think there is some doubt that it may be one of his co-accused.
Regards
Roger
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There is a 1925 snippet in which the son Arthur Donovan Burke is found guilty of stealing,and his father Arthur Taylor Burke of receiving.Interestingly,he is quoted as saying he stole it "because he did not want his daddy to suffer".I notice the son's birth registration is Arthur Donovan Joseph Wilkinson Burke.Judging by the 1939 register it was not his only offence.
Regards
Roger
I can see a snippet re this - posted in Nottingham Evening Post November 1925 ( perhaps a national story?) and it could be that Arthur (father) was sentenced to hard labour - the whole article may reveal this. It continues ..'The Burke family.. '
Looking at the date, if the snippet is correctly interpreted by me, it may have some bearing re Violet's birth.
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I have now found further snippets
1937:Arthur Donovan Joseph Raymond Peter Wilkinson Burke("an artist" aged 19).presumably Raymond Peter as born,and his brother Arthur Donovan Joseph Wilkinson Burke ("a traveller,aged 25) of Harrow Weald are charged with an offence involving a loaded pistol.
Regards
Roger
Raymond was registered as Raymond Francis Joseph.
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I've found a further 1937 snippet - following the court case referred to,the younger brother is sentenced to 3 years in Borstal and the elder brother 3 years in gaol.
Regards
Roger
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I wonder if these things were known to the family - the ones with the brothers, I mean.
The one for Arthur snr in 1925 would seem to be the one that might give more information about him and, I think, might mention the family. The snippet seems to imply a custodial sentence.
From what Coomera writes earlier re Violet's birth, he would need to be around late '25 - early '26. I think the newspaper date was November 1925 :-\
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Phew! this is something - the granddaughters are not too impressed. There is one interesting point: Raymond (Peter) must have got remission for joining the army as he was with the BEF and was captured in Northern France trying to get to Dunkirk in 1940. He spent nearly six years in Poland and almost died on the "death marches" of 1945 until rescued by the Americans and flown back to London.
Regarding "did the family know?" - I would say yes, as the address of Harrow Weald was a house that Ellen rented (backed onto Harrow School playing fields) where she and all the children lived - she herself working in Harrow. They were there until well after the war. Donovan (known as Don) may have still been in trouble after the war as when I first knew the family he was not around and suddenly appeared. He too never married.
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Many thanks for the brilliant work by all concerned. I am now confident that I have Ellen's mother & father (James & Margaret) and her birth. Just need to find out what happened to Margaret that led to her baby going to Elizabeth to be raised. Re the males, thanks so much for this, I could never have traced it all. The 1949 court case is Donovan, as Ellen bought a small business after the war with her inheritance (the house at St Annes in part). They all worked in it until it failed in the early fifties.
Fantastic result! john.
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Good to hear that, Coomera.
Was Ellen definitely raised by Elizabeth or just schooled by her? She was back in Blackburn in 1911.
It could just be that, as the only girl, Elizabeth wanted to give her a chance. She had done well for herself by marrying and perhaps wanted something similar.
Regards
Heywood
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I was always told that she was raised by Elizabeth and the fact that she kept Ellen in some luxury (a maid, housekeeper, and girls at boarding school) indicates she was very attached to her. I think that she and James were both living in Scarborough at the time of the marriage. Ellen went to the famous RC school at Harrogate (so she said) but after Joseph died Elizabeth seemed to have moved her to The Mount School in York. Given that Ellen was raised as a middle class woman with no job skills I find it hard to grasp how she married a Draper's Assistant, which would have been at the lowest of income levels. How did they meet? Perhaps this cross cultural marriage just did not work out with Arthur trying to keep up with his wife's income. The past - they do things differently there.
best wishes, john.
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James and Margaret, Ellen's parents seem to have lived in the Blackburn area until their deaths.
Ellen in 1911 is in the Blackburn area near her birth family and not living the life of a middle class woman but perhaps as an educated young woman.
It is difficult to look back now at motives but I would think that, as said previously, Elizabeth had no children and helped to raise her niece - being the only girl but we don't know.
As for how they met - it could have been in the shop ;)
How does Elizabeth refer to her in her will? Does she indicate 'adopted daughter' relationship or niece?
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Well, I was told that when she went up to London to train at the Savoy Hotel in 1930 that this was the first time that she had worked. The date indicated to me that perhaps Elizabeth's income had fallen due to the stock market crash and she could no longer pay for Ellen & the children. It was assumed that she would never be in that position. Elizabeth must have continued some support as they lived better than her salary would have indicated. As Ellen was married from Scarborough, she may have gone back there, where Elizabeth was living (I think!) Have not seen the will myself, but I do know that Ellen was intended to be the sole benificiary, at least that it is what I was told. regards, john.
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I think we are both speculating on this although you have Ellen's oral history passed down.
If you haven't checked 1911 census, it would add to the picture of Ellen that you are building. The will would also perhaps help.
Elizabeth's estate was a tidy sum of money: £7000+. Probate was granted to Margaret Ann Atkin.
Margaret died in 1943 at the same address so there may have been an arrangement for Margaret to continue living in the house. Her estate was £9000 + which seems a lot for someone who had been in domestic service. Probate was granted to Amelia Roberts.
These wills may explain things for the family and often can be interesting to add to the family story.