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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Somerset => England => Somerset Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Moffitt77 on Sunday 09 July 17 07:16 BST (UK)
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The death notice of James Bailey Joyce appeared in New Zealand newspapers. For this reason I want to build a complete picture of his family, since his could be the family of James Parker JOYCE, born c1834 in Southern England. James Parker Joyce came to NZ c1850.
John Joyce, (1779 - 1865) married Mary Bailey (1780 - 1863) in 1799.
Lived at 21 Bath Road, Beckington, Somerset.
Ten children.
I would like to compete this list and know the surnames of their partners:-
James Bailey Joyce (1802 -1873)
John Wallis Joyce - still in company register 1886, address 21 Bath Road, Beckington, 1868-1886, wife Mary Ann. His grave has age at death - 43 years
Jesse Powell Joyce (1816-1859)
Daniel Bailey Joyce - named in company 1868-1886
I am looking for the other six children, and especially partner names such as Parker!
The last-named could be a grandson, but he is part of a company including John Wallis Joyce:-
Ebenezer Gough, Greenwick
John Edward Francis Frowd, Bristol, dead by 1872
Peter Keevil, North Bradley, Wiltshire
Daniel Bailey Joyce, Beckington
Only the company details for 1868 to 1886 noted. The two middle names could be those of daughters' husbands?
The property at 21 Bath Road was called Clifford Villas, but now the two buildings are called Peacock House and Clifford House, Number 2 being Clifford House. Clifford is a significant name, being that of my father.
I have found a John Joyce born Beckington in 1817, but other researchers consider John Wallis Joyce to have died, aged 43. The company list shows him still a member in 1886, but then, so is Frowd who was dead by 1872.
When John Joyce died, interested parties were asked to contact John Wallis Joyce or Daniel Bailey Joyce. Where was the eldest son James Bailey Joyce?
I would be grateful for any scrap of evidence. This has been a fifty year search. James Parker Joyce is well-recorded in New Zealand, but his origins are obscure apart from mention of Southhampton.
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Hi, have you looked at www.freereg.org.uk
Lots of Joyce records for Beckington on there.
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born c1834 in Southern England
James Parker Joyce was born in Southampton in 1824 according to this obit - a typo?:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/WSTAR19030123.2.14
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Do you have this M/C?
1861/2897, Jane Caydzien to James Parker Joyce
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Yes, I have most NewZealand data. The date of his birth varies and the official one is 1834. We look seriously at the possibility of 1824 because of the number of things he achieved and did before coming to NZ. The age given at death fits with 1834. Thank you for searching. He worked for Bruntons in both countries selling their products.
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jusnoneed
I will try the link you suggested. Thank you.
There is a mistake in one set of notes which I used for the first message. Greenwich was the address, not Greenwick. All five of the men listed as part of the company, including the three Joyce family members, had links with the Beckington area. One of them, Ebenezer Gough was a developer of a cork and oil floorcovering called Kamptoulicon, later superseded by another similarly named oilcloth, Kampticon, which was soon to become Linoleum, produced by Walton. Eventually, Nairns Linoleum became prominent. There are many of them in this area as well.
My mother was a Nairn, but her Nairn branch is well-documented in Ayrshire. It is thought that there could be a connection a long time ago.
I am wondering if the Joyce family and the group listed were involved in the floorcovering business as well.
There are a number of strong Joyce families in Southern England, including a very tempting one associated with Shapwick and White Mill. I am obviously getting a bit desperate in this search after fifty years, because I can see family resemblances to both of these families. Without naming him, I showed a photograph of John Joyce (1779-1865) to my sisters, and immediately they stated that he looked like our father. I can't ignore that!
I have found, last night:-
Parish of North Bradley
Southwick
1832 voters
John Bailey, Occupier Rags Hill farm
Walter Bailey, Freehold house, In the Rank
George Frowd, Freehold farm, Little Common
John Joyce, Freehold farm, In the Rank
Job Keevil, Occupier, Cutteridge
Peter Keevil, Freehold, Organ Pool Farm
Peter Keevil Jnr, Occupier, Kings Farm
I have read a book about the History of Beckington. Very fascinating, especially about their firm rules and government. The witchhunt sidetracked me for some time. Now I am back on track trying to find out if this family has a Parker name associated with it.
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JESSE Joyce (Bookseller) married Jane PLAISTER 8 Oct 1839 Frome, Father JOHN a Draper (FreeREG)
DANIEL BAILEY Joyce married 8 December 1835, Ashmore, Dorset, to Eliza HALL (Familysearch)
1861 for John Wallis Joyce;
Jno W Joyce 41
Mary Ann Joyce 40
Elonor P Joyce 3
Mary Ann Joyce 1
JOYCE, ELEANOR PARKHOUSE, Mothers mn PARKHOUSE *****
GRO Reference: 1858 J Quarter in FROME Volume 05C Page 585
Marriage Reg 1851 London, John Wallis JOYCE and Mary Ann PARKHOUSE on same page
Ebenezer Gough was the Husband of ANN VINCENT Gough, Daug of John/Mary
They married 1846.
Trish :)
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JOHN EDWARD FRANCIS Frowd married LYDIA Joyce**, 18 Feb 1836, St George, Beckington
Bachelor/Spinster
John of North Bradley in the County of Wilts Parish
Witnesses; John Joyce/Geo Frowd
Licence with consent of all parties; additional witnesses: Daniel B JOYCE Mary JOYCE Willm YOUNG Maryann JOYCE Anne JOYCE
(FreeREG)
From Census Lydia Frowd is born c 1810 Beckington, still alive 1881
William Probated Kent 1890
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1851 Census Peter Keevil, Farmer, born c 1803 North Bradley Wilts is living there. Wife MARY born 1812 Beckington
Marriage Reg 1839 Frome Peter Keevil/Mary JOYCE on same page
Likely 2nd Marriage for him as Son Enoch is born c 1830 and Mother is Herenhappuch (sic)
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I am from NZ also but living in Sydney Moffitt77,
So I know about NZ Certs.
Is there any info at all on James Marriage or Death Certs?
Have you an Intention to Marry for the 1861 Marriage?
Trish :)
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JOHN EDWARD FRANCIS Frowd married LYDIA Joyce**, 18 Feb 1836, St George, Beckington
Bachelor/Spinster
John of North Bradley in the County of Wilts Parish
Witnesses; John Joyce/Geo Frowd
Licence with consent of all parties; additional witnesses: Daniel B JOYCE Mary JOYCE Willm YOUNG Maryann JOYCE Anne JOYCE
(FreeREG)
From Census Lydia Frowd is born c 1810 Beckington, still alive 1881
William Probated Kent 1890
JOHN EDWARD FRANCIS Frowd married LYDIA Joyce**, 18 Feb 1836, St George, Beckington
Bachelor/Spinster
John of North Bradley in the County of Wilts Parish
Witnesses; John Joyce/Geo Frowd
Licence with consent of all parties; additional witnesses: Daniel B JOYCE Mary JOYCE Willm YOUNG Maryann JOYCE Anne JOYCE
(FreeREG)
From Census Lydia Frowd is born c 1810 Beckington, still alive 1881
William Probated Kent 1890
JESSE Joyce (Bookseller) married Jane PLAISTER 8 Oct 1839 Frome, Father JOHN a Draper (FreeREG
Trish :)
This is great Trish. I spent hours searching for just this information. I got masses of other information, but not this? They seemed so family-minded that I thought that these men could be sons/brothers-in-law. You are wonderful, thank you. Some of the females present are probably sisters as well?
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Your welcome.
Re this;
Licence with consent of all parties; additional witnesses: Daniel B JOYCE Mary JOYCE Willm YOUNG Maryann JOYCE Anne JOYCE
Anne Joyce is likely Ann Vincent Joyce the one who married Ebenezer Gough and Mary the one who married Peter Keevil.
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I also think this is Johns Baptism;
JOHN Joyce Baptised 1 Nov 1778, St George, Beckington to JAMES/JANE
Marriage;
27 Aug 1769, St George, Beckington
James JOYCE, Clothworker, to Jane VINCENT Spinster
James Joyce was a Witness to the 1799 Marriage of John and Mary Bailey
Also 1861 Census Jemima Keevil age 11, Grandchild, is with John/Mary
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I am from NZ also but living in Sydney Moffitt77,
So I know about NZ Certs.
Is there any info at all on James Marriage or Death Certs?
Have you an Intention to Marry for the 1861 Marriage?
Trish :)
Hi, to a fellow Kiwi.
Yes, we have them, but very little is known about JPJ's origins. The certificates add nothing to help us. Another descent line found a possibility for his origin as the son of a sailor because of a James Joyce born on the same day as he was. It looked promising for a while but fizzled out.
I hope that I am not messing up this thread. I am still unsure about which buttons to press and when. Sorry, if I have.
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I wonder where James Bailey Joyce fits in all of this? He was the eldest son, and was born 1802. He is listed in the same Gazette as the company I have listed, but he appeared as a separate listing to the group between 1868 and 1874. As we know he died in 1873. He was from Beckington throughout?
I may have mentioned that JPJ could have been a child of one of the Joyce Girls. It was the practice to place the father's name as a middle name so that the girl's name could simply be dropped if the couple married later.
Even so, James Bailey Joyce is my prime contender for closest relationship to James Parker Joyce, because it was so important that his death notice should appear in the New Zealand paper. Is it possible that he too could have married a Parkhouse woman? It could easily be a bit different because of bad spelling???
I think that you have found over half of the ten children of John and Mary Joyce. I wonder where they are all buried? Or went to school. There are so many places to look.
I feel sure that I have already posted some of this but I have probably put it in the wrong place. Sorry again.
JPJ came to NZ about 1850 , very young if he was born 1834, and more likely if he was born 1824. It seems surprising if the newspaper obituary was wrong, because he was an editor of the Southland Times for a very long time. There is an old book containing details about him, but it went missing many years ago, to the displeasure of the editor of the day. So many things were accomplished before he came to NZ that we have always been puzzled. He had experience selling safety fuses in France, he spent time in the Channel Islands, was a tax inspector, and many other things that you saw in the obituary. In NZ he was a seller of the fuses, a stock-drover with Michael Joyce, a gold miner who struck it rich, a hotel owner, a manager of Tuturau Station, editor of two papers, and finally a Member of Parliament, to mention some of his achievements.
I am not sure if the Michael Joyce above is a relative. It seems likely that he was the Captain Michael Joyce who had a ship built and resided at Port Chalmers, Dunedin. They were similarly successful, except that it was Michael's son who became an MP. Perhaps it was their huge recorded gold strike which set them up for life. I have much to prove here, but there are many anecdotal scraps of information adding up to a convincing total. I will check the names of the other members of the gold mining group. They could also have been from the Beckington area?
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You are doing fine with the way you are posting info.
I cant find any Baptisms for John/Mary's Children so cant confirm them all.
As to James Parker Joyce I am sorry I cant find anything on him that you dont already have.
Sorry I cant be any more help.
Trish :)
Maybe someone else can??
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Have you checked John Joyce's will (1865)?
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah154/shaun52/JohnJoyceprobate1865_zpskdbjaq8f.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/shaun52/media/JohnJoyceprobate1865_zpskdbjaq8f.jpg.html)
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John Wallis Joyce - still in company register 1886, address 21 Bath Road, Beckington, 1868-1886, wife Mary Ann. His grave has age at death - 43 years
John Wallace Joyce died in 1881 aged 62 per the GRO death index. Confirmed by this memorial transcription: http://www.gomezsmart.myzen.co.uk/places/beckington/Beckington%20Chapel%20Burial%20Ground.htm
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born c1834 in Southern England
James Parker Joyce was born in Southampton in 1824 according to this obit - a typo?:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/WSTAR19030123.2.14
There is an article here on William Brunton (born 1817) who invented the fuse - he appears to have started up in Cornwall 1847 - He was recommended for a post by Brunel & Stephenson 1856 but elected to move to N.Z
http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/William_Brunton_(1817-1881)
I wonder if JPJ was in the Cornwall area :-\
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William Brunton was something of an adventurer. He held important engineering posts all around the world. From memory he had more than one factory. Ultimately he became chief engineer in Bluff, New Zealand, which is only a few miles from where our JPJ lived.
We think that the gold lured these men to this country, whether for adventure or money is not always clear. I rhink it was the case for JPJ because he moved rather quickly form jobs which were mindnumbingly hard work to running a hotel and managing a big station. Michael Joyce was of a similar age and in a similar situation. He was able to have a ship built. I am trying to find other links between these two men.
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As the newspaper article (obituary) that Shaun gave mentioned the Channel Islands have you looked at the Joyce/Joice families that are living there in 1841.
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Dorset is also on my search horizon. There is an extended Joyce family associated with WhiteMill and Shapwick which has interested me too. They also lived in Blandford and The Isle of Wight.
I think that every man who did not want to be found was either called James Joyce or John Flynn, and I have one of them as well. I have been looking for fifty years. In the early days I had too few choices and now there are far too many. Can't complain, because there are so many wonderful people who try to, and do, help me in the search.
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The reason I asked is that there is a 14 year old James Joice in Jersey in 1841 - have you followed his life to discount him :-\
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I have not been able to get into the Channel Islands sites properly. The searches all came up negative, so I think that there must have been something wrong in my entries???
He could hint have been there very long, because he was between 16 and 26 when he came to NZ. He must have been reasonably well-educated, because of his very long time as a journalist. He was very blunt and outspoken in his editorials.
Is it possible to find school records for places like Beckington in the U.K? I doubt that he had the time for a University education in his early life. There would not have been time.
There are also a great number of possible James Joyce's in Limerick and the Royal Navy, but I think that I have exhausted these avenues, but nothing would surprise me.
James Bailey Joyce must have gone to his bride's parish for his marriage if he did marry. Unfortunately they did not always use the middle name.
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I do not have any notes to show that I followed the 14 year old from The Channel Islands. I have looked at all spellings including Joyes. I will now have another look anyway. Than you for the idea.
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wife Mary Ann. His grave has age at death - 43 years
It was JWJ's wife Mary Ann who died aged 43 in 1864.
https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=101835506
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James Bailey Joyce married Jane Wace in London in 1837.
"Sept. 12, at Christ Church, London, James, eldest son of John Joyce, esq, of Beckington, to Jane, youngest daughter of the late John Wace esq., of Newgate Market"
(Bath Chronicle and Weekly Gazette, 21 September 1837)
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Brilliant Shaun. I Hoped that he had married a Parker because of JPJ's middle name. He was 35. I wonder if it was a second marriage?
My next move is to see if Frederick Joyce, who establisjphed a business making percussion caps and sporting ammunition in 1820, is connected to this family. Before that I think that the Joyce's, including a James, worked from various tenement blocks in London.. It is a very weak clue but Fred is listed as having a bank account alongside the Beckingham Joyces between 1868 and 1886.His factory was at 57 Upper Thames Street in the 1860's from New Zealand advertisements. The Head Office later moved to Kingsway House, Kingsway, LondonWC.
In 1851, Frederick Joyce was engaged in discussion with the Board of Health about the neglect of the local body of Twaltham Abbey. Fred's address at that time was Farmhill House, Waltham Abbey, Essex.
I have not found any personal records for Fred. I did find a birth/baptism for a Frederick Frank Joyce, b 21 Feb 1870, Abbots Inn, Hampshire.
James Parker Joyce did say that he was from Southhampton, and that his father was a writer, but this is oral history only.
James Parker Joyce named his son Frederick
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I had not seen the will of John Joyce before. Thank you for that. I don't know how to access wills. The list of names you have included from the will explains the group who held the bank account with the London Bank. I thought that they must be some sort of family company. In a way they were, managing the estate affairs.
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Hi Shaun. I have checked the Newspaper in which the obituary appeared and Ithink that the date of 1824 comes from a mistake in the writer's addition when subtracting 68 from 1903. We would like the birth to be 1824 because it would make his early life seem more realistic. If he was in Australia in 1851 he would have been barely 17 and that is young to have done all of the listed things - which I think are probably in the wrong order, both in New Zealand and earlier.
William Brunton had a second factory in North Wales. In New Zealand he seemed to find a place to stay put, and to focus on his engineering skills. He and JPJ must have been close, because WB was involved in backing JPJ in his successful entry into politics. I think that I would have liked JPJ. He got into some fearful verbal battles with other newsmen and readers at times. He was very definite about what he thought.
Yes, Dorset has figured largely in my search for JPJ. He could slot very nicely amongst the descendants of James or John Joyce from WhiteMill, Shapwick, Blandford, and the Isle of Wight.
There is one James Joyce there, but he died in 1868 and another gap where he could fit into a family of thirteen, but I just cannot find him there. Their pattern of life and occupations would match the many things that he did.
We have also found a James Joyce born in Portsea on JPJ's birthday 17 March 1834. His father, also James Joyce was a Seaman aboard HMS vessels, tracked back to Limerick b 1809, and who died in 1851. The child was never found in residence with his mother, and I could not find a death for him, so it is still a live search. That is where the boy in Jersey and a couple of other lads working away from home figure in my search, but no luck there either. I think that this is a blind search, even though I found out that this James Joyce and another of my great great grandfathers had been on the same ship, HMS Britannia in 1851 on their way to Crimea. Unbelievable really.
This family of John Joyce of Beckington is by far the best fit, so far. The fact that he looks like my father did in old age, and that my father is named for his home at Clifford Villas is like the icing on the cake! I will keep searching for any other sons of John above. Maybe the cake is there under the icing!!
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Found another son - Felix Carey Bailey Joyce bc.1816 - married an Anne Withers 12/5/1846 Norton St. Philip, Somerset. Occupation shown as Tradesman, father John Joyce, Tradesman. Sadly, he died some 17 days later.
Something that doesn't seem to have been touched on is that John and Mary didn't seem to baptise any of their children themselves in Beckington, which was where they were all born.
However, it looks like 5 of their children were baptised as adults (so, subsequently, no parents details are given. These are on FreeReg:
John Joyce bp.7/7/1839
Eliza Joyce ditto
Daniel Joyce ditto
Ann Joyce ditto
Felix Joyce bp.7/6/1840.
Note only their first Christian names shown on their adult baptisms.
Felix's baptism entry is a gem - at the bottom is added that he died 29/5/1846, 18 days after he'd married Anne Withers (actually it's 17 days as they married on the 12th), he was in his 30th year and was buried 10/6/1846 Naunton Chapel (not sure where this was, as only one I can find is in Gloucestershire).
I'm afraid I'm another who thinks the 1824 birthdate is more likely to be correct for James Parker Joyce. No way could he have done all that is shown in the obituary by the age of 16 when he was in the goldfields in Victoria 1851. I did note a James Joyce aged 29 (i.e. bc.1825) left Victoria for Adelaide on the 'Seaton' in January 1854 and wondered if this was him leaving Victoria and subsequently then leaving Adelaide at some point for NZ.
From witnesses at marriages, adult baptisms, etc. the children of John and Mary seem to be as follows (with possibly slight variations on the dates):
1. James Bailey Joyce (eldest son) bc.1803 married Jane Wace 12/9/1837 London
2. Daniel Bailey Joyce bc.1807 (bp.7/7/1839) married Eliza Hall 8/12/1835 Ashmore, Dorset
3. Lydia Joyce bc.1810 married John Edward Francis Frowd 18/2/1836
4. Mary Joyce bc.1812 married Peter Keevil 1839
5. Felix Carey Bailey Joyce bc.1816 married Anne Withers 12/5/1846
6. Jesse Powell Joyce bc.1817 married Jane Plaister 1839
7. John Wallis/Wallace Joyce bc.1820 married Mary Ann Parkhouse 1851
8. Ann Vincent Joyce bc.1824 married Ebenezer Gough 1846
9. Eliza Joyce b.? (adult baptism in 1839)
10. Maryanne Joyce (witness at various marriages) b.?
I cannot honestly see how your James Parker Joyce would fit into this particular family.
Annette
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The list of names you have included from the will explains the group who held the bank account with the London Bank. I thought that they must be some sort of family company.
Those are just the executors. You can order a full copy of the will with its 4 codicils using the link I provided.
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Going back to the reason that you are interested in this family:
The death notice of James Bailey Joyce appeared in New Zealand newspapers.
This seems likely to be connected with the fact that his daughter Anna Wace Joyce was living in Christchurch at the time with her husband William Joyce.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP18710419.2.13?query=wace%20joyce
It appears that they married in New Zealand in 1867.
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Annette, you are a gem. This has helped me immensely. Now I must move on or back to one of my other search avenues to find him. A couple of loose ends remain. Did one of the sons, maybe James Bailey have a previous marriage? Did one of the daughters have a child to a Parker before marriage?
Did John Joyce, born 1777-9 have a relevant brother? Someone was being searched for in New Zealand via newspaper at the time of John Bailey's death. That was the practice of families in notifying people here of family disasters. I will always wonder who it was for.
When all else fails I will have another look at two men who were dismissed as possibilities for several reasons! One James Joyce from Kerry was tried 1/11/1949, and transported via Ship 'Ramilles' 7/8/1854; and the other James Joyce was deported to Tasmania, on 31/7/1852 after his 'case' on 10/7/1849 in Southampton. At the time I could get no information beyond that.
I have been going back over old notes to get ideas. We gave up on the birth in Southampton long ago as a letter to authorities found nothing. Like you though, I feel convinced that JPJ could have been one who needed to lower his age to fit the criteria for the ship or to get a lower fare as a minor or some other reason.
Herries-Beattie, a very reliable historian, claimed that JPJ was born in Southampton, and also that he received his education there. Further he said that JPJ told him that his father was a journalist, a 'newspaper writer' to be exact. JPJ's death certificate, gives his father's name a James Joyce as well. It is not much to go on, but much more is available for searching. I always consider the possibility of an earlier birth than 1824. Maybe the mistake in the obituary was a deliberate one??
I have a letter from a Council Archivist in Southampton many decades ago which names only two men named James Joyce, both with dates well after JPJ came here - hosier in 1861, and a hatter/shirt maker in 1878, probably the same individual.
I have had little experience in looking for school records outside New Zealand. Would there have been a central customs department at that time which has records?
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I've given you the connection between James Bailey Joyce and New Zealand (his daughter Anna).
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Thank you Shaun. You were quick to follow up on the Wace name. Now I am wondering where William Joyce, her husband fits or does not fit. They are, of course, the logical recipients of the message. That is what I set out to find out at the beginning
Please forgive the typos in my previous post. I am searching for a birth date close to 1824, not necessarily BEFORE 1824. My fingers are getting very old!
Yes, I figured that the group was more than just a family one and were executors. I should be more precise. I did get sidetracked for ages looking for them. There is so much about their families, and I love the language, eg how Keevil changes from that spelling to Keevill, Kevil, Keovil, etc.
Thank you again
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Am
Annette, I thought when I saw Maryanne as a witness, that she could be the wife of one of the men, eg Mary Ann married to John Wallis? That would leave one space amongs the ten children. There is a wide gap between number one and number two??? I just can't leave this alone yet😕
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A 'Marianne Joyce' was a witness to Daniel Bailey Joyce's marriage to Eliza Hall in 1835 together with a James Joyce. This was 16 years before John Wallis married his Mary Ann!
All the marriages of the sons were as bachelors and no trace of the daughters having any illegitimate children to a 'Parker' or otherwise.
Annette
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Per the newspaper announcement of the 1835 marriage , Daniel Bailey Joyce ( " D B Joyce) was the 3rd son of Mr J Joyce of Beckington. (Bath Chronicle and Weekly Gazette 24 December 1835)
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There are newspaper announcements in April 1826 of the marriage of William Joyce of Beckington to Mary Ann Brookes, eldest daughter of Benjamin Brookes of Keward.
Looking at the 1851 census ( Bunny Lane Farm, Rowde) I think this William is the father of the William who married Anna Wace Joyce in New Zealand. He has his widowed mother Mary Joyce (75) with him so I think he may possibly be a nephew rather than a son of John Joyce.
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Shaun, I have to comment that you have amazed me once again.
Are we now looking for the 'second son' who fits in between James and Daniel? It is so hard to give up on a search when there is a tiny clue to more possible information.
Based on a pittance of clues, I once found the following:-
Arthur J Joyce, Newspaper Writer, London, born 1819, Bath, Somerset. I was never able to find out any more. James Parker Joyce named one son Arthur.
He also had a son called William James, born 1865, not recorded in his obituary.
Papers Past - By 1 May 1863, the Joyce party of gold miners struck it rich at Maori Point on the Shotover River. Each member of the party had 60lbs of gold after six weeks of work. They went back for more!
Michael Joyce
James Joyce
David Finlan
William Ryan
Peter Kelly
Michael Darmaby
Sudden riches. What did they do with it?
Papers Past 1863, James Parker Joyce advertised his Royal Hotel at St John's Kingston.
Michael Joyce, 1816- 95, had a ship built! He was referred to from then as Captain Joyce of Port Chalmers, although he had been in the Water Police in Australia.
I cannot help but connect these incidents. Michaels' son John was born in St Ives in 1839. He became a lawyer and was MP for Lyttelton. Another son, Michael, 1846-1882 lived in Sydenham.
Were the two men brothers, or were they father and son? The New Zealand picture seems to show up a lot of uncle/nephew emigrations also.
This is why I thought originally that the message about The death of James Bailey Joyce was in the Lyttelton Times.
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Other obits mention his boyhood in the Channel islands:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/SOCR19030124.2.25
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZFL19030131.2.2
Just wondering if there is a connection with Captain Daniel Joyce (1816-1884), a mariner from Jersey, who came to New Zealand in the 1840's (possibly earlier) and died in Fiji in 1884. Father James Joyce, mother Isabella Watson.
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Re MICHAEL Joyce
MARRIAGE;
25 December 1838, St Ives, Cornwall
Michael JOYCE, Bachelor, Mariner, Father JOHN a Mariner
Mary Ann HOLLOW, Spinster, Father DANIEL a Fisherman
1841 under Joice, Michae/Mary and Son John, are living next door to Her Parents.
1851 as you probably know Michael is born c 1816 Youghall, Ireland
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I've only started gathering together the bits and pieces about Michael Joyce. He married quite late in life and had what I think was a second family. Interest developed when I tried to find the James Bailey connection to Lyttelton, where Michael's son was an MP.
In searching through ships' passenger lists I have often seen the name Joyce for the captain. I have not collected these details. I think that I did not make any connection between the two captains, because of deaths in different places. They could well be connected. I will try to gather my notes.
I like the Channel Islands approach. My searches there have always come up blank. It could be my fault. JPJ was apparently fluent in French, so his time there must have been reasonably long.
JPJ was also a very able sportsman. One story (Carrick) has him with settler Rees on Rees' boat on Lake Wakatipu in Central Otago. This was a very remote and dangerous place at the time. I think it was the only boat there, and it was the only reasonable way of getting to Rees' station halfway up the lake. For a dare JPJ leapt into the lake and swam round the boat. He was there in a news capacity I believe, and of course, according to Carrick, he sent the news aboutthe Discovery of gold-bearing land, back to his paper. The rest is history. I have not checked Carrick's account, but he wrote it to pay tribute to JPJ after his death.
One story has it that JPJ's son, William James, was one of the first European children born in Nokomai, Central Otago. This birth is not recorded in his family records.
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Trish, I did not know that Michael was born in Youghall, Ireland. Thank.
When I have been searching through Phillimore's church records etc, I have noticed that there are not as many early Joyce births as I would expect in English counties. The obvious answer was migration to Scotland, England and then the Colonies.
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Re MICHAEL Joyce
MARRIAGE;
25 December 1838, St Ives, Cornwall
Michael JOYCE, Bachelor, Mariner, Father JOHN a Mariner
Mary Ann HOLLOW, Spinster, Father DANIEL a Fisherman
1841 under Joice, Michael/Mary and Son John, are living next door to Her Parents.
1851 as you probably know Michael is born c 1816 Youghall, Ireland
Trish, this has set me thinking, along with your last post. I did not know that Michael was born in Youghall. I realised that, as a mariner, he moved around a great deal, and so too did his father, John Joyce. The children of sailors were often born in different parts of the globe.
This is just conjecture, but so also was John Joyce of Beckington a mariner. You can see where I am heading. John Joyce of Beckington was in the Royal Navy in his youth, Nelson's Fleet. I have recorded a John Joyce aboard some five HMS ships and has wife was Mary. (National Archives, and London Gazette) For his service aboard HMS Phoebe in a sea battle with La Nereide on 22 December 1747, he was awarded a Naval General Medal in 1797. (Find a Grave)
Your mention of the name Brooks as the name of the wife of the possible father of the William Joyce who married Anna Wace Joyce was also productive. This is because that name enters the lineage of John Joyce, mariner, father of Michael Joyce, and grandfather of John Joyce, born St Ives 1839
This Michael Joyce was known in New Zealand as Captain Michael Joyce, of Constitution Street, Port Chalmers. The ship he had built was called the 'Arc' which he used around the coasts of New Zealand. He could have travelled further but I have not researched that. Mary Ann (Hollow) Joyce died in NZ 14 June 1866. There was another son Michael (1846-1882, aged 38)
In 1868, Captain Michael Joyce remarried, to Elizabeth Jane BROOKS. At least two babies were stillborn sons, and their only daughter, Mary Ann, died young (1871-1892) One son, Michael Buckley Joyce, born 1873 survived. I thought this to be a mistake of mine, but this son was referred to always as Buckley.
This is a link, although a tenuous one to the family of William Joyce, husband of Anna Wace Joyce, but worth looking at. Mary Ann Brooks was the daughter of Benjamin Brooks (of Keeward? Where is that?) and Elizabeth Jane Brooks was the daughter of 'The late pilot Robert Brooks of Plymouth' they may have been of different generations but both had babies and they used familiar family names for them. Anna and William had William Brooks Joyce 1870 and Mary Eliza Brooks 1870.
The comment about the widowed mother of William Joyce being present in his home suggests a parentage of William Joyce, yeoman, and Mary Gibbs, 20 April 1797 Beckington, another possibility being William Joyce and Mary Hudder.
John Joyce, b1839 followed his father, Captain Michael Joyce, to sea as a boy and then into the Water Police in Australia before they came to New Zealand. Here he studied and practised Law and ultimately became Member of Parliament for Lyttelton. He is well documented in the Cyclopoedia of New Zealand.
Was my great grandfather, James Parker Joyce, another son of Michael, perhaps. If one son followed his father to NZ, why not another? Was Michael Joyce, Mariner, another son of John Joyce, mariner, of Beckington?
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I have had another quick read over all you have posted Moffitt77.
It is obvious you have done a lot of research into various Joyce Families.
I asked you earlier what was on James Parker Joyces NZ Certs which you never really answered.
Some where amongst all you postings, maybe a reply to someone else, didnt you say a a Cert has his Father as James?
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Bear in mind that he may have changed his name along the way. Have you found any record of a James Parker Joyce prior to his marriage in 1861? Or any record of someone of that name arriving in Australia or New Zealand?
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I have had another quick read over all you have posted Moffitt77.
It is obvious you have done a lot of research into various Joyce Families.
I asked you earlier what was on James Parker Joyces NZ Certs which you never really answered.
Some where amongst all you postings, maybe a reply to someone else, didnt you say a a Cert has his Father as James?
Thank you for reading all of that, Trish.
Both certificates are difficult to explain. Initially the birth certificate was hard to obtain. I located it, after three tries, by asking for it under his mother's MAIDEN name, Lammas. It has since gone through a number of changes. Initially my grandfather's official surname was that of his birth father, James Joyce. Upon BDM noticing that also written on the registration form was that the child's mother was the wife of T (or J) Griffin, the child's surname then became Griffin. For the rest of his life
that child used his stepfather's surname on all official documents.
I debate this change, because there no evidence of the existence of this man, and the note has been added to the registration in a different hand, with no signature or explanation (actually required in NZ) I think that the name Griffin was an alias used by a very young girl to enable her to be where she was. I have been unable to find any evidence of the 'marriage'. It is my opinion that the lack of a full name for Griffin adds to the non-validity of the change. I have found relevant notes about a person who could fit the situation, but he is elusive.
A second child appears when searched for under her mother's maiden name, but incorrectly as Lammis, a further indication that there was no first marriage. The birth father was the future husband of her mother. Some years later a message appeared in a New Zealand paper searching for my great grandmother under her maiden name of Lammas. Family in Australia knew that she had gone to NZ and the general area she was to be found, again indicating no marriage.
The death certificate is also difficult. My grandfather's surname and that of his 'father' is stated to be that of his stepfather. The one variation which indicates family knowledge of irregularity is that his father's forename was JAMES.
Other men named James Joyce have been eliminated. There are many indications that we have found the correct one.
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Bear in mind that he may have changed his name along the way. Have you found any record of a James Parker Joyce prior to his marriage in 1861? Or any record of someone of that name arriving in Australia or New Zealand?
Yes, there are many, including for all information that appeared in the obituary. His movements were well documented.
There are some that are of particular interest to me, including those such as the stock droving, advertised frequently as offered by James Joyce and George Mills, Clutha Ferry, Otago Witness, 14 Jan 1859. This has special significance for me, because it is evidence of family connections. Mills was the name of my grandfather's aunt, also there at the time.
There are many references to James Joyce as the publican of Mr Joyce's Royal Hotel in Kingston (eg Wakatipu Mail 10 June 1863) I cannot find it right now, but there is one reference to the owner/publican as being James Parker Joyce (perhaps Wakatipu Mail 6 May 1863. I will check this when I leave this site) Generally, though the middle name is left out, but it is clear that he is the right person.
Hard to prove to you, but my great grandmother was a singer, and it would appear that she was a part of a popular musical group (under the name of, variously, Miss, Mrs, M, or Martha Griffin) and this group performed at the Royal Hotel above on frequent occasions. Martha sang at public gatherings for the rest of her life, as Mrs Moffitt.
In particular the notes about his work and management of Tuturau Station indicate a close family tie. They were very clannish. John Turnbull took over the ownership in 1861, and JPJ stayed on as manager, until the gold fever of 1862 when he became a Waggoner from Invercargill to Longford (Gore). John Turnbull was the father of Helen Turnbull who married James Moffitt. He was the brother of my step great grandfather, George Moffitt.
The four Moffitt brothers, James, John, George, and Michael are recorded as mining the next gold claim above that of the Joyce Party which was as I have listed in an earlier post, including James and Michael Joyce. The Joyce gold strike is mentioned in the Otago Daily Times of 1 May 1863. The Bracken's Hotel mentioned belonged to the man who composed the words for our National Anthem. There were many men to become notable after the gold rushes in NZ!
It is hard to know at what point the name Parker was actually part of his name. I don't think middle names were very often used in early New Zealand. The use of a middle name would be something that I would expect him to use as his position of importance grew, especially as he was the one to report the gold bearing land to Invercargill papers.
I have never thought to search for a connection of Jane Caydzien (b1838? Denmark) to explain Parker. Her father was John Caydzien, Denmark, and her mother was Jane Ferrier. Jane came to New Zealand aboard the ship Jura in 1858, with William Caydzien, who appeared in the list to be a husband, but who was probably her brother. I have not researched that further.
The death certificate gives his name as James Parker Joyce, and also that of his father as James Parker Joyce, journalist. It would seem strange if Jane, who died 25 November 1821, would include those details if the name Parker came with her marriage??? I think he revealed his middle name when he stopped wanting to remain ordinary, like most working men of the time.
Sorry it is so long.
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I forgot to mention that there were numerous of the name James Joyce to come to New Zealand. Amongst many, I liked, for a while, the ship Joseph Fletcher, 18 August 1859, because it matched the time in NZ of 44 years. I trust the words of Herries Beattie, historian, and others who claim that he was in NZ from 1857, which seems to me to fit better.
He was in Australia previously, and I have not had the finances to research that period fully yet. I have wondered if it matched the time Michael Joyce and his son, John, were in Australia. Financial excuses aside, I have got myself too involved in possible British origins to do the Australia part properly, except to note, briefly, the two convicts mentioned earlier.
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Other details in 'The Dictionary of NZ Biography and in Southern Runs' by Herries Beattie show that he knew James Joyce in documents to be the same person as James Parker Joyce before 1862:
James Parker Joyce:-
Born 1835, Southampton, educated there, and entered the Customs Service. (Dict)
1855 EMIGRATED to Australia 1855 (Dict)
1858 Southland (Dict)
Stockman on Tuturau Sttion in which he bought a share. (Dict)
Was in Mataura(Gore) New Zealand in 1857 - Herries Beattie (probably droving stock)
Was a stockman and at Tuturau Sttation from 1857 to 1862 - Herries Beattie (Which he managed for various owners, managed for Turnbull etc)
1862 onwards - waggoning to the diggings, storekeeping. HERRIES Beattie
Herries Beattie also gives JPJ's birth at 1835.
So it would appear that most of the mentions of James Joyce in early papers in the area would refer to him, with other knowledge applied.
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Annette7
Is it confirmed that all of the children were born in Beckington?
Since John Joyce was a mariner, I wondered if some of the children were born in other ports. For example when he was retired from his ship, HMS Atlas (1779-1800 service) he was discharged to Plymouth quarters on 25 January 1800.
It could be that it was only when he gave up the sea and set about becoming a successful Woollen Merchant that he took an interest in persuading his children to be baptised.
I say successful, because he had, from memory, £750 in railway shares. - The London Gazette.
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it could be that it was only when he gave up the sea and set about becoming a successful Woollen Merchant that he took an interest in persuading his children to be baptised.
John Joyce and his wife were evidently members of the Baptist church (they are buried in the Baptist Chapel Burial Ground) which rejects infant baptism.
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Re passenger lists, I noticed a "J. Joice " arrived Dunedin on the Gil Blas from Melbourne on 28 November 1855. https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/otago-witness/1855/12/1/2
The passengers gave a letter of thanks to the captain. The signatures include a James Joyce.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/OW18551208.2.7
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Yes, other family members like that ship as well. I am trying to decide which of the many ships bringing James Joyce to this country could be relevant and then I will track down the embarkation papers where possible. There were hundreds of ships crossing the Tasman to NZ, even to the extent of have very regular mail boats. Records for them are very brief in content.
On your advice I have had a better look at Channel Island records. A James Joyce was born there on 16 June 1827. This could make him the 14 year old boy that you mentioned earlier. He was born to James Joyce and Ann La Source. I know nothing else about him yet. Perhaps the family was from Southhampton earlier????
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I am new to looking at DNA results, and may have done this search incorrectly, but I have, today, come up with details very interesting to me. The most significant, when I do a search in my list of matches for the names I know in the two Joyce lines that I have discussed here, I get:
* 13 matches, fourth to sixth cousins for the name Hollow (exact spelling) - mother of Michael Joyce
* 15 matches, fourth to sixth cousin for the name Bailey (exact spelling) - wife of John Joyce
Half of these two sets of matches involve the same researchers. Does this alone connect the two families? Perhaps too early to say.
* 4 matches, fourth to sixth cousins for the name Hall (exact spelling) - wife of Daniel Bailey Joyce
Numerous matches, show distant cousins for the name Hall, which contain exactly the SAME researchers as the HOLLOW ones above. Exact spelling used to check.
Inexperience aside, as well as possible false matches, I think that there is a distinct DNA connection between Captain Michael Joyce, John Joyce of Beckington, and me.
If I count back, Me + father Clifford + grandfather William James + great grandfather John Parker Joyce + gggfather Michael Joyce or brother + ggggfather John Joyce, we see that these two latter men are four and five degrees away from me.
I think that this suggests that the two men called John Joyce are one and the same person.
I think that the four Hall fourth to sixth cousins and the further matching Hollow/Hall distant cousins bring Daniel Bailey Joyce into the picture indicating one further remove. Does that indicate also that he is Michael's brother?
To top this off, there are four matches to fourth to six cousins for the name Parker and nine pages of distant cousins. Perhaps that detail could put James Parker in the same generation as Capt Michael's and the Parker could be someone one or two removes from him, like Mary Ann Hollow's mother, etc.
The name Joyce has produced several pages of cousins, but only one close cousin, caused possibly by the fact that the only two male lines from William James have not yet tested for DNA.
There are distant cousin matches for ALL of the names that I have in both Joyce trees we have discussed here. Further there are eight names which produce fourth to sixth cousins.
Now for the reality test. I must follow up these tentative connections with proof.
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Oops, sorry. I put John Parker Joyce instead of James Parker Joyce in my last post.
Thank you all for your wonderful help. It will take me some time to work on these DNA results.
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One of JPJ's children was Arthur Francis Joyce ...have you seen the early Southampton directory listings for Francis Joyce, bookseller? He was the subject of bankruptcy proceedings 1837-1839. Not sure what happened to him after that.
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Wow! I wonder if he is the missing second son? I really believe that there could well be more than ten children. I quoted a Find a Grave source for that, but you can only know how many children there are if you are the actual parent?? Even then . . . I'm hoping for an Alexander, a William, and a Michael of course. Maybe a Frederick.
Frederick, Arthur, George, Walter, Oliver, James, and John figure in JPJ's immediate family, and yes, one son was John Arthur Francis Joyce.
We are getting closer.
A while ago, I searched for an Arthur Joyce, writer. I will go through my notes to see if it fits. I did find a number of bankruptcies in The London Gazette but have not connected them- yet!
I am keeping the possibility of a change of name and have been looking at reasons for departure to the colonies, such as bankruptcy, divorce, criminality etc.
I think though, that there were so many of the name, James Joyce, that it would be safe to retain the name, and then put the middle name back in once settled again.
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I am still searching for relevant details about Arthur Francis Joyce. Not much luck so far.
William Joyce, Beckington, with the widowed mother, Mary, (Most of them seemed to marry Mary) could well be a member of John Joyce's immediate family. Cousin marriage looks to be common in the Joyce family, going by the surnames which recur. I found a marriage for William Joyce and Mary Gibbs 1797, Beckington.
I seem to be surrounded by Ship's captains in this research. Could Daniel have been one also? There is evidence of a Daniel Joyce being master of several ships which plied the shores of New Zealand:-
Carbon - Master, Daniel Joyce - Wellington Independent 5 Feb 1848 (also 1845, 1847).
Lucy James - Master Daniel Joyce - Daily Southern Cross - 27 Feb 1852 (also 1851)
Cheetah - Daniel Joyce - NZ Spectator 8 June 1853,
General Cameron, Joyce - Southern Daily Cross- 9 June 1860
Keera - Commander D Joyce - West Coast Times - 18 Nov 1865 (also 1859)
Keera - Commander D Joyce - Otago Daily Times - 7 June 1867
By 1865 he was a commander and by 1866 he had added 'esq' to his name. Maybe he had 2 ships by this time? His lot in life also seems to improve after that big gold strike that I mentioned to you.
To begin with, potential customers had to apply to the Captain at his lodgings. By 1865 he had an agent, and that agent was initially 'Joyce and Gallop', in Hokitika, and by 1867 the agent was Wm H Joyce, or William H Joyce. I wondered if the initial H would connect him to Daniel Bailey Joyce - signifying Hall?
I found a household for Daniel Joyce in Canongate, Dunedin - Otago Daily Times 28 April 1865.
Daniel Joyce married Mary Carroll in 1876
Several children were born in NZ to them:-
1877 Margaret
1880 Agnes
1882 Lilian
1883 James
1886 William
Another ship's captain called Joyce also has connections with New Zealand. On 1 July 1908, there was a marriage between Thomas Kennedy and Louisa Sylvia (Louie) Lawrence, youngest daughter of Stephen Lawrence, and granddaughter of CAPTAIN JAMES JOYCE OF JERSEY. Her mother was probaly the captain's daughter.
The James Joyce to whom you alerted me to as being 14 in 1851 and on the island of Jersey was also the son of James Joyce, and an obviously French wife (mentioned here earlier.) This answers a few questions about JPJ's early life, eg his stated early sojourn there, his eloquence in the French language. His father being a master of a ship also answers the question as to why we cannot find when he came to NZ. It could also explain his easy entry into a Customs job?
I cannot get any further into the Channel Islands records. I believe that they, along with the Isle of Wight, had a special relationship with Britain, and were partly separate as well. This is very interesting because another important Joyce family was located in the Isle of Wight, Blandford, Shapwick, eg the White Mill Joyce family, as I call them.
This research twist and turns like an octopus, and is as clever as one too.
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There is evidence of a Daniel Joyce being master of several ships which plied the shores of New Zealand
That's the one from Jersey that I mentioned in Reply#42:
Just wondering if there is a connection with Captain Daniel Joyce (1816-1884), a mariner from Jersey, who came to New Zealand in the 1840's (possibly earlier) and died in Fiji in 1884. Father James Joyce, mother Isabella Watson
.
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Thank you. I missed the word Jersey. Should have read through this again. Sorry.
I have found an unusual note (Otago Daily Times, 12 May 1869.) about a person who sailed for Fiji on the Matilda Hayes from Akaroa ahead of a party from Dunedin with a warrant for the arrest of Joyce. The suggestion was that it 'intimately concerned' a cutter which 'lately changed hands'. Many creditors were said to be distressed.
A further comment indicated that the civil case H S Chapman v Daniel Joyce had been adjourned for a day.
I have found no more information yet, but it looks as if he may not have returned to NZ.
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This is odd:-
'Joyce, on Matilda Hayes to Sydney from Viti Levu, July 1887. I have not recorded the source, but of course it could be a son or brother???? Now I am curious.
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Death of Capt D Joyce in Fiji, 1884:
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP18840818.2.8?query=d%20joyce
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I have spent the day 'IN' Jersey. It is perhaps a foolish thing to do, but I have clustered the Joyce names and created a feasible tree. The first James Joyce is, I feel, a member of the Beckington group, if perhaps a generation before John Joyce b1778, although two sons in a family could be that far apart in age. He appears to have been born about 1760, having died in 1839, aged 79. It is the seafaring nature of the family which encourages me, plus the DNA links which we are checking.
James Joyce is recorded as from Newcastle on Tyne in one marriage record, but that is not proven by one mention alone.
James could possibly have been married 3 times:-
Marriage 1
Wife - Isabella Watson, buried 19 Sept 1822, aged 47.
Children
Thomas Thatcher Joyce, buried 23 September 1850, and born c 1795.
No family recorded.
William Henry Joyce, married 4 January 1829, Mary Johnson.
(William's three children were:-
James John, buried 6 Sept 1830,
John Edward, buried 7 Mar 1835,
William Henry, buried 17 Nov 1836.)
Daniel Joyce, buried 9 Mar 1810,
George Joyce, bp 18 Mar 1812, buried 12 Dec 1820,
Edward Joyce, bp 1814,
Daniel Joyce, by 13 Jan 1816.
Marriage 2
Wife - Nancy Giot, married 8 Jan 1824, but the following children are recorded to Anne La Source. Nancy is a diminutive of Anne, and a search proved that the full version of the surname is Giot Dit La Source. Anne died 16 June 1824.
Children
Mary Ann bp 28 May 1824
James bp 16 June 1827. Mother died the same day.
Marriage 3
Wife - Elizabeth Le Brun, married 9 September 1828.
Children
John George, bp 15 Jun 1831, but buried as George John 26 sept 1832.
Elizabeth Mary, bp 21 Sept 1834,
Elise buried 7 June 1836,
Isabelle Emily, bp 28 Feb 1836 (Edited - Isabelle is the daughter of William and Mary above. Sorry)
These are all of the Joyce names that I can find in Jersey. It seems logical that they are one family.
Hypothesis
We know that Daniel Joyce came to New Zealand from Jersey. He had a family here and appears to have left the country in a hurry on his ship, Matilda Haynes. He is said to have died in Fiji in 1884, but records show a Daniel Joyce as Captain of the ship, Matilda Haynes again, on a voyage to Sydney in July 1887
Daniel's voyages could be the reason why we can not be certain of any ship being the one that brought JPJ to New Zealand.
William Henry Joyce could be the William Henry Joyce who was agent for Daniel's shipping business in New Zealand
James Joyce, born 16 jun 1827, son of James b 1760, and shown as 14 in 1841, appears very likely to be our JPJ. His French stepmother, Elizabeth Le Brun would explain why he was fluent in French, and JPJ was described as having spent much of his youth in the Channel Islands.
When James senior died, his widow, Elizabeth would have still been young. Her parents Jacques Le Brun and Sara Le Breton, married in 2 November 1805, so she probably married again, being only about thirty when James died. Could a man called Parker have become JPJ's stepfather?
I am now looking for a second marriage for Elizabeth Le Brun Joyce. Maybe it was to a Parker - my usual question.
There were a number of Parker families. The will of one James Parker interests me, even if it is a bit early at 1709. It may, however, have been written long before death, or it could indicate other members of the next generations. It is interesting, because he is described as 'late of Southhampton'. Amongst the rest of the wills listed, is one for a Benjamin Parkes (often a bad spelling for Parker) of 16 Granville Street, who died 26 September 1868.
All speculation, but James Joyce's daughter Mary Ann Joyce could be the person recorded as Mary Ann Parker. Eliza Ann Parker could be James Joyce's daughter Elizabeth, and William Alexander Parker could belong to the new marriage. These were the only Parker names I could find. Just guessing really.
I seem to be becoming obsessed with the Parker name, but I AM aware that it could be an invention by JPJ
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James Joyce, born 16 jun 1827
Remember that is a baptism date. He was born June 3rd 1827.
However there is a merchant navy record of his death at sea aboard the Ulysses in 1845 https://goo.gl/eiUjnh So not that James Joyce.
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Did you notice in Jersey a James Oliver Parker baptised 19 April 1829? Son of James and Susan
EDIT scrap that idea too - he died in December 1829.
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Oooooooooooooooh! And again!
My husband says that I am like a big deflated balloon.
Thank you for these details before I launch into a deeper search. I was beginning to wonder if there could be a connection between the names LeBrun and Brunton. So much else fitted.
There were also positive glimmers when the French names were fed into the DNA matches. Better leave that in the meantime, till we delve deeper and avoid false matches.
I don't suppose that there was yet another child, James, born to Elizabeth Le Brun?
I thought that I had seen all of the Joyce and Parker names on Jersey, but obviously not. I will nit be able to resist having a further look at Jersey.
I still have not found my first recorded reference to Joyce on the Martha Haynes in 1887. It was probably a brother or a mistake in the date. Sorry if it looked as if I did not believe you. Another mistake I made earlier was in confusing the Isle of Man with the Isle of Wight. I do know the difference.
Right, back to Portsea.
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Back to the drawing board.
I think that I mentioned looking for a young James Joyce who was born on the same day as JPJ in Portsea, to James Joyce, Limerick, and Agnes Pearce, Portsea, but was never found near his parents again, well, by me anyway. I traced the movements of both his mother and father, through census and Royal Navy papers. That was interesting. James Joyce Senior was on a different ship about every eighteen months or two years. I thought that he may have died when HMS Challenger was wrecked in 1835, but although he had been on this ship at the time of marriage in 1833, he was not present then, and he died in 1851.
I had found a second James Joyce interwoven with this one (wife Jane, son George) and presume he was the one who was severely wounded on board HMS SANSPAREIL in October 1854. I had thought this to be the Portsea James and was excited to find that he had also been aboard HMS Britannia in 1851, because another grandfather of mine was also on that ship in Crimea. A genealogist's dream seemed to be coming true when I found that Commander C G Grylls of HMS SANSPAREIL had kept a journal for September-October 1854 (JOD/96) and an address for a Royal Museums, Greenwich, library site of archivesandlibrary.rmg.co.uk or collections.rmg.co.uk
Then I discovered that the one I was seeking had died in 1851. I suppose I should follow up on this second James Joyce one day, but another search also grew out of this one.
When I was looking for the missing son of James and Agnes above, I looked for young men away from home. One was James Joyce, born/bp 1834 Chatton, Northumberland. This looks interesting because James Joyce of Jersey gave Newcastle as an homebase during one wedding.
James Joyce, boarder, Eng/Wales Census 1851, age 17, single. Residence West gate, Northumberland, Sunderland Street, Occupation Joiner, Others Margaret Smith, William Smith, Joseph Moffoot, Reg District Newcastle on Tyne, p33, reg no HO107, peice/folio 2404/308/
You can see why it also interested me - yet another way of spelling Moffitt.
Another entry for this James Joyce states chr 11 August 1833, born Chatton, Northumberland. Father James Joyce. Mother Eleanor.
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Have you checked John Joyce's will (1865)?
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills
(http://i1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah154/shaun52/JohnJoyceprobate1865_zpskdbjaq8f.jpg) (http://s1379.photobucket.com/user/shaun52/media/JohnJoyceprobate1865_zpskdbjaq8f.jpg.html)
John Joyce 1779-1865 was my 4x Great Grandfather. I have researched this family extensively and I have a copy of this will.
I have a great deal of info an all the children, if you are interested.
John Joyce and Mary Bailey had ten children:
John JOYCE was born 1779, Beckington, Somerset; was christened 11 Jun 1785, Saint George's Church, Beckington, Somerset; died 18 Oct 1865, Beckington, Somerset; was buried After Oct 18 1865, Baptist Chapel Burial Ground, Berkley Lane, Beckington, Somerset.
John
married Mary BAILY 28 Mar 1799 (by License), Saint George's Church, Beckington, Somerset. Mary (daughter of William BAILY and Sarah ALFORD)
was born 1779, Beckington, Somerset; was christened 4 Apr 1779, Saint George's Church, Beckington, Somerset; died Mar 1863, Beckington, Somerset; was buried , Baptist Chapel Burial Ground, Berkley Lane, Beckington, Somerset.
Children:
Jane JOYCE was born 1800, Beckington, Somerset; died 1876, Chard.Somerset.
James Bailey JOYCE was born 1802, Beckington, Somerset; died 12 Sep 1873, Beckington, Somerset; was buried , Baptist Chapel Burial Ground, Berkley Lane, Beckington, Somerset.
Daniel Bailey JOYCE was born 1807, Beckington, Somerset; died 14 Oct 1890, Beckington, Somerset; was buried 18 Oct 1890, Baptist Chapel Burial Ground, Berkley Lane, Beckington, Somerset.
William JOYCE was born 1808, Beckington, Somerset; died Dec 1853, Mells, Somerset; was buried 6 Dec 1853, Saint Andrew, Mells, Somerset.
Lydia JOYCE was born 1810, Beckington, Somerset; died 4 Dec 1890, 12 Southbrooke Road, Lee, Kent.
Mary JOYCE was born 1812, Beckington, Somerset; died 24 Feb 1888, Brentford, Middlesex; was buried , North Bradley, Wiltshire.
Jesse Powell JOYCE was born 1816, Beckington, Somerset; was christened , Not Known; died 18 Jun 1859, 8 Lorrimore Street, Newington, Surrey; was buried 24 Jun 1859, All Saints Cemetery, Nunhead, Linden Grove, Southwark, Greater London / Surrey .
Felix Carey Bailey JOYCE was born 1816, Beckington, Somerset; died 29 May 1846, Naunton, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire; was buried 10 Jun 1846, Naunton Baptist Chapel, Naunton, Gloucestershire.
John Wallace JOYCE was born 1819, Beckington, Somerset; died 8 Jun 1881, Beckington, Somerset; was buried , Baptist Chapel Burial Ground, Berkley Lane, Beckington, Somerset.
Ann Vincent JOYCE was born 1822, Beckington, Somerset; died 1870, Croydon, Surrey; was buried 1870, Baptist Chapel Burial Ground, Berkley Lane, Beckington, Somerset.
re James Bailey Joyce - he had two children with his first wife, Jane Wace - Anna Wace Joyce and Alexander Joyce. Both children emigrated to New Zealand:
Alexander remained in Christchurch, NZ, married twice and had two children - Alaric Joyce (mother Emily Hayes) and Alexander Charles Clifford Joyce (mother May Ann Clifford).
Anna married (in NZ) her second cousin, William Joyce, with whom she had 10 children. They returned to England c1873.
I haven't come across a James Parker Joyce in my research as yet.
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The death notice of James Bailey Joyce appeared in New Zealand newspapers. For this reason I want to build a complete picture of his family, since his could be the family of James Parker JOYCE, born c1834 in Southern England. James Parker Joyce came to NZ c1850.
John Joyce, (1779 - 1865) married Mary Bailey (1780 - 1863) in 1799.
Lived at 21 Bath Road, Beckington, Somerset.
Ten children.
I would like to compete this list and know the surnames of their partners:-
James Bailey Joyce (1802 -1873)
John Wallis Joyce - still in company register 1886, address 21 Bath Road, Beckington, 1868-1886, wife Mary Ann. His grave has age at death - 43 years
Jesse Powell Joyce (1816-1859)
Daniel Bailey Joyce - named in company 1868-1886
I am looking for the other six children, and especially partner names such as Parker!
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I would be grateful for any scrap of evidence. This has been a fifty year search. James Parker Joyce is well-recorded in New Zealand, but his origins are obscure apart from mention of Southhampton.
The reason James Bailey Joyce's death was noted in NZ newspapers was because his son, Alexander Joyce, emigrated to NZ and settled there (he was the Timeball Keeper at Lyttleton Timeball Station)..
James' daughter, Anna Wace Joyce, also lived in NZ for a few years but had returned to England around the time of her father's death.
The Beckington Joyces do not have any connection with Southampton.
You are correct that Peter Keevil was married to Mary Joyce and John Edward Francis Frowd was married to Lydia Joyce. Ebenezer Gough was married to Ann Vincent Joyce.
John Wallis Joyce was the youngest of John Joyce's sons, he died in 1881 and is buried with his wife and parents in the Beckington Baptist Burial Ground.
John Frowd died in 1870.
I have researched this family extensively and I don't believe there is any connection to your ancestor, James Parker Joyce.
The ten children of John Joyce and Mary Bailey of Beckington were:
John JOYCE was born 1779, Beckington, Somerset; was christened 11 Jun 1785, Saint George's Church, Beckington, Somerset; died 18 Oct 1865, Beckington, Somerset; was buried After Oct 18 1865, Baptist Chapel Burial Ground, Berkley Lane, Beckington, Somerset.
John married Mary BAILY 28 Mar 1799 (by License), Saint George's Church, Beckington, Somerset. Mary (daughter of William BAILY and Sarah ALFORD)
He was born 1779, Beckington, Somerset; was christened 4 Apr 1779, Saint George's Church, Beckington, Somerset; died Mar 1863, Beckington, Somerset; was buried , Baptist Chapel Burial Ground, Berkley Lane, Beckington, Somerset.
Children:
Jane JOYCE was born 1800, Beckington, Somerset; died 1876, Chard.Somerset.
m Samuel French 1832, Chard, Somerset (one daughter, Emma)
m Samuel Bethell 1865, Dalwood, Devon
m Thomas Hill Fowler 1869, Axminster, Devon
James Bailey JOYCE was born 1802, Beckington, Somerset; died 12 Sep 1873, Beckington, Somerset; was buried , Baptist Chapel Burial Ground, Berkley Lane, Beckington, Somerset.
m Jane Wace 1837, London (son Alexander Joyce, daughter Anna Wace Joyce)
m Frances Town 1862, London
Daniel Bailey JOYCE was born 1807, Beckington, Somerset; died 14 Oct 1890, Beckington, Somerset; was buried 18 Oct 1890, Baptist Chapel Burial Ground, Berkley Lane, Beckington, Somerset.
m Eliza Hall 1835, Ashmore, Dorset (one son, John)
William JOYCE was born 1808, Beckington, Somerset; died Dec 1853, Mells, Somerset; was buried 6 Dec 1853, Saint Andrew, Mells, Somerset.
m Mary Greenfield Hudden 1834, Beckington (one daughter, Agnes)
Lydia JOYCE was born 1810, Beckington, Somerset; died 4 Dec 1890, 12 Southbrooke Road, Lee, Kent.
m John Edward Francis Frowd 1836, Beckington (11 children)
Mary JOYCE was born 1812, Beckington, Somerset; died 24 Feb 1888, Brentford, Middlesex; was buried , North Bradley, Wiltshire.
m Peter Keevil 1839, Frome, Somerset (10 children)
Jesse Powell JOYCE was born 1816, Beckington, Somerset; was christened , Not Known; died 18 Jun 1859, 8 Lorrimore Street, Newington, Surrey; was buried 24 Jun 1859, All Saints Cemetery, Nunhead, Linden Grove, Southwark, Greater London / Surrey .
m Jane Plaister 1839, Frome, Somerset (9 children)
Felix Carey Bailey JOYCE was born 1816, Beckington, Somerset; died 29 May 1846, Naunton, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire; was buried 10 Jun 1846, Naunton Baptist Chapel, Naunton, Gloucestershire.
m Anne Withers 1839, Norton St Phillip, one month before he died
John Wallace JOYCE was born 1819, Beckington, Somerset; died 8 Jun 1881, Beckington, Somerset; was buried , Baptist Chapel Burial Ground, Berkley Lane, Beckington, Somerset.
m Mary Ann Parkhouse 1851, London (3 daughters)
Ann Vincent JOYCE was born 1822, Beckington, Somerset; died 1870, Croydon, Surrey; was buried 1870, Baptist Chapel Burial Ground, Berkley Lane, Beckington, Somerset.
m Ebenezer Gough 1846, Beckinton, no children.
I hope this helps!
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I've given you the connection between James Bailey Joyce and New Zealand (his daughter Anna).
and also his son, Alexander Joyce, who was the Timeball Keeper at Lyttleton. :)
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Thank you Shaun. You were quick to follow up on the Wace name. Now I am wondering where William Joyce, her husband fits or does not fit. They are, of course, the logical recipients of the message. That is what I set out to find out at the beginning
Anna Wace Joyce married her second cousin, William Joyce, b1839 Warminster, Wiltshire, died 1915, Bristol.
Their common ancestors were their great grandparents, James Joyce and Jane Vincent of Beckington.
Anna was the granddaughter of John Joyce and Mary Bailey, William was the grandson of John's brother, William Joyce born 1771 Beckington and Mary Gibbs.
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Annette7
Is it confirmed that all of the children were born in Beckington?
Since John Joyce was a mariner, I wondered if some of the children were born in other ports. For example when he was retired from his ship, HMS Atlas (1779-1800 service) he was discharged to Plymouth quarters on 25 January 1800.
It could be that it was only when he gave up the sea and set about becoming a successful Woollen Merchant that he took an interest in persuading his children to be baptised.
I say successful, because he had, from memory, £750 in railway shares. - The London Gazette.
John Joyce of Beckington was only briefly in the Royal Navy as a midshipman from c1796 to 1800, when he was discharged a lieutenant. All his children were born in Beckington between 1800 and 1822. The eldest was Jane Joyce, the youngest, Ann Vincent Joyce.
There are two other, more senior-ranking John Joyces who were in the Royal Navy at the time, who I do not believe were related.
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I think that this suggests that the two men called John Joyce are one and the same person.
I think that the four Hall fourth to sixth cousins and the further matching Hollow/Hall distant cousins bring Daniel Bailey Joyce into the picture indicating one further remove. Does that indicate also that he is Michael's brother?
No, Daniel Bailey Joyce was not Michael Joyce's brother. There is no close relationship between these two men.
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Annette7
Is it confirmed that all of the children were born in Beckington?
Since John Joyce was a mariner, I wondered if some of the children were born in other ports. For example when he was retired from his ship, HMS Atlas (1779-1800 service) he was discharged to Plymouth quarters on 25 January 1800.
It could be that it was only when he gave up the sea and set about becoming a successful Woollen Merchant that he took an interest in persuading his children to be baptised.
I say successful, because he had, from memory, £750 in railway shares. - The London Gazette.
John Joyce of Beckington was only briefly in the Royal Navy as a midshipman from c1796 to 1800, when he was discharged a lieutenant. All his children were born in Beckington between 1800 and 1822. The eldest was Jane Joyce, the youngest, Ann Vincent Joyce.
There are two other, more senior-ranking John Joyces who were in the Royal Navy at the time, who I do not believe were related.
Incidentally, Jane Joyce's second husband, Samuel Bethell, was the widower of Jane Joyce's first cousin, Elizabeth Joyce.
Elizabeth was the daughter of William Joyce and Mary Gibbs. (William being the brother of John Joyce of Beckington).
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What to say but how wonderful that you have chosen to share so much information. Thank you from both my brain and my heart.
I suspect that my James Joyce could have changed his name. I am currently researching a man of that name who travelled to New Zealand as A Smith. Nearly every generation of my family has a Smith somewhere. They cannot all be related!
Your information adds so much to what has been supplied by others, and surely helps to remove some misconceptions. I will take some time to digest what is written here, and I will reply in more detail.
At this moment though you have set the 'Maybe' bells ringing. I found the New Zealand section of your message most interesting, well to someone like me who would follow the slightest wisp of an idea. I have, of course looked at Anna Wace Joyce and William Joyce and wondered at the lack of later information. The one person who now jumps out at me is Alexander. In my father's family that is one name that is very old but not often used in recent times. The other is, of course, Clifford, which does not appear frequently at all.
I have seen the name of Alexander, and noted details, but weirdly I have never thought about him seriously. Now I can see a link. Martha, my great grandmother named the father of her first child in New Zealand as James Joyce. The child was named William James Joyce in early records but later, and, for the rest of his life, his name was that of his stepfather, George Moffitt. The interesting thing is that William James named his youngest child, my father, Clifford. These men never moved far from family names. When I saw the name of Clifford used for the name of a home of the Beckington Joyces, Clifford Villas, it surprised and pleased me. Now there is another mention in the maiden name of a wife. Far-fetched, but what I have to resort to in this search.
Further to that, Martha used Alexander as a name for a later son. It just does not appear frequently in the Moffitt line, so I am off to search in that area too.
I have done so much looking at the Beckington Joyce family, and my DNA shows so many links with the surnames in that family that they still have a family feel about them.
You know, I feel confident, supported by DNA searches, that many of the clusters of people named Joyce widespread in England and the rest of the world are connected. After all huge numbers of them were mariners, merchants, writers, accountants, farmers. . . . I could go on and match these occupations to those chosen in my family.
Thank you so much. I will print your messages and pore over them before serious searching and replying further.
It is Mothers' Day in New Zealand and I am awaiting a cluster of offspring. It is clearing to be a fine day with a gentle wind.
Thank you,
Mary
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What to say but how wonderful that you have chosen to share so much information. Thank you from both my brain and my heart.
I have seen the name of Alexander, and noted details, but weirdly I have never thought about him seriously. Now I can see a link. Martha, my great grandmother named the father of her first child in New Zealand as James Joyce. The child was named William James Joyce in early records but later, and, for the rest of his life, his name was that of his stepfather, George Moffitt. The interesting thing is that William James named his youngest child, my father, Clifford. These men never moved far from family names. When I saw the name of Clifford used for the name of a home of the Beckington Joyces, Clifford Villas, it surprised and pleased me. Now there is another mention in the maiden name of a wife. Far-fetched, but what I have to resort to in this search.
Further to that, Martha used Alexander as a name for a later son. It just does not appear frequently in the Moffitt line, so I am off to search in that area too.
You're welcome :)
In what year / location was Martha's son, William James Joyce / Moffitt born?
I will look further into the possibility of his father being one of the Beckington Joyces and let you know if I find anything relevant.
Enjoy your family day :)
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Back to the drawing board.
I think that I mentioned looking for a young James Joyce who was born on the same day as JPJ in Portsea, to James Joyce, Limerick, and Agnes Pearce, Portsea, but was never found near his parents again, well, by me anyway. I traced the movements of both his mother and father, through census and Royal Navy papers. That was interesting. James Joyce Senior was on a different ship about every eighteen months or two years. I thought that he may have died when HMS Challenger was wrecked in 1835, but although he had been on this ship at the time of marriage in 1833, he was not present then, and he died in 1851.
Checking again through my family tree, I have found one Joyce connection to Ireland / Portsea.
James Joyce born 8 August 1807 in Beckington, son of William Joyce and Mary Gibbs.
James' wife was Jane (possibly Ford) who was born 1821 in Bristol.
They had three children - Fred 1845 in Cork Ireland, Henry 1847 also in Cork and Fanny 1849, Rowde, Wiltshire
James was a travelling horse dealer. In 1851 he was absent from the family home in Rowde, Wiltshire. I don't know where he was but have previously assumed he was in Ireland at the time. I don't know when / where he died.
His son, Fred, did not marry. He was a draughtsman and in 1881 / 1891 was living in Southampton. He died in 1899 in the Portsea Island district.
The other son, Henry married Rebecca Good in Cork and had five children in Bandon, County Cork:
Annie Joyce 1893
Richard Joyce 1894
William Joyce 1896
James Joyce 1899
Henry John Joyce 1900
Henry died in Cork in 1922 aged 78.
The interesting connection may be with the fact that James Joyce born 1807 was the uncle of the William Joyce who married his second cousin, Anna Wace Joyce in New Zealand. James was the brother of William's father, William born 1802 in Beckington.
I have often wondered what prompted Alexander and Anna Wace Joyce and Anna's future husband, William, to go to New Zealand c1865 - often one finds a family member has already settled abroad, but so far I hadn't found that to be the case.
I am now thinking it may be possible that James Joyce b1807 travelled to New Zealand c1850, leaving his family behind in Wiltshire.
I don't have any evidence or proof of this, but the last record I have of him was in Cork in 1847 when his son Henry was born and he then disappears from the Irish / English records. He may or may not have been in England / Ireland when his daughter Fanny was born in 1849 in Rowde.
However, there does not appear to be a death in New Zealnd for a James Joyce who was born 1807, although it's possible that he continued to travel elsewhere or returned to Ireland.
I don't whether or not the dates fit with the birth of your grandfather, William James Joyce / Moffitt, but it seems to be a lead worth following.
Is there any suggestion that William James Joyce's father was a horse dealer?
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Martha Lammas/Brock was possibly married firstly to T Griffin. I have not been able to locate this marriage in NZ and am currently searching in Australia where the rest of her family remained after emigrating there, in 1857, aboard the ship Grand Trianon (for which I cannot locate a passenger list). The marriage may never have existed and T Griffin could have been her protector on the goldfields in New Zealand. She became an upstanding business woman in her community and she seems to have left otherwise honest details in her records found so far. I would like to give her the benefit of the doubt because of that.
There is a document gap between 1857 and October 1865 when she gave birth to a son, William James in Nokomai in southern New Zealand. The registration was delayed because BDM has 1866 as the birth year. She named James Joyce as the child's father. The birth certificate had a scrawled note stating 'wife of T Griffin'. There is no supportive information, and seems suspect to me as it gives only a man's initial. This initial could be a J. No explanation has been forthcoming.
Martha married George Moffitt in 1869 she declared herself as Martha Griffin, widow. After many queries from descendants, the relevant birth certificates, initially denied to me, have changed the child's surname from blank, to Joyce, to Moffitt, to Griffin. Most peculiar. William James grew up as Moffitt and all family records bear that name. A second child born to Martha before her marriage to George Moffitt named him as the father, but gave her name as Lammis (sic). This raises questions as to the nature of that first marriage. For some reason she had returned to her maiden name, and that is the name by which her mother in Australia tried to communicate with her in 1868.
James Joyce later included Parker as a middle name. There is nothing unusual in this once a man made a name for himelf in New Zealand. He had married Jane Caydzien c 1861/2,after having arrived in New Zealand c1857. I have located evidence of Martha (unproven) by name, several times, working with a Griffin musical group in the hotel he owned, after making good on th goldfield. Jane appears to have lived in Invercargill, but that is all unclear.
Martha was a very good singer.
James Joyce seems to have had a very large number of occupations and accomplishment for a man who claimed to have been born in 1834 - spent youth in Channel Islands, worked for Customs, had military experience in France, was a competent sportsman, was fluent in French, salesman selling mining equipment, fossicker for gold - successfully, carted goods for miners, drove stock for farmers, managed Tuturau Staion, became a newspaperman and thence became a long-term editor of an Invercargill newspaper, and finally becoming a Member of the New Zealand House of Representatives. He left no will that I can find.
I have communicated and shared research with his legitimate descendants and they, like me and also a fellow journalist of his, believe that his date of birth could have been as early as 1824 to include that overcrowded early life.
Many men who came to New Zealand often kept their backgrounds to themselves. On many occasions I have found this to mean that they were born to single mothers, and the pattern seemed to be that they were given both parents' surnames. The mother often included the father's name as the child's second name, so that, if he later married her, they could simply drop off her maiden name. For this reason I have been looking for Joyce women who could have had a child to a man called Parker.
Of course there are many reasons why a man would hide his background. James Joyce claimed that his father had been a writer/ newspaper writer, and that he was from Southampton. I did not think this had to mean that either man had been born there - that could have been their last place of residence.
More to come.
Mary
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James Joyce later included Parker as a middle name. There is nothing unusual in this once a man made a name for himelf in New Zealand. He had married Jane Caydzien c 1861/2,after having arrived in New Zealand c1857.
James Joyce seems to have had a very large number of occupations and accomplishment for a man who claimed to have been born in 1834 - spent youth in Channel Islands, worked for Customs, had military experience in France, was a competent sportsman, was fluent in French, salesman selling mining equipment, fossicker for gold - successfully, carted goods for miners, drove stock for farmers, managed Tuturau Staion, became a newspaperman and thence became a long-term editor of an Invercargill newspaper, and finally becoming a Member of the New Zealand House of Representatives. He left no will that I can find.
I have communicated and shared research with his legitimate descendants and they, like me and also a fellow journalist of his, believe that his date of birth could have been as early as 1824 to include that overcrowded early life.
Many men who came to New Zealand often kept their backgrounds to themselves. On many occasions I have found this to mean that they were born to single mothers, and the pattern seemed to be that they were given both parents' surnames. The mother often included the father's name as the child's second name, so that, if he later married her, they could simply drop off her maiden name. For this reason I have been looking for Joyce women who could have had a child to a man called Parker.
Of course there are many reasons why a man would hide his background. James Joyce claimed that his father had been a writer/ newspaper writer, and that he was from Southampton. I did not think this had to mean that either man had been born there - that could have been their last place of residence.
More to come.
Mary
From what you have written above it seems very unlikely that your James Joyce was connected to the Joyce family from Beckington, at least not closely.
The James Joyce I mentioned above (born 1807 in Beckington) is almost certainly too old and does not fit with your description.
However there is James Joice (sic) recorded in 1841 in Jersey aged 14, born 3 Jun 1827 in Jersey, working as a carpenter's apprentice. He is not with his family in 1841.
He was baptised 16 Jun 1827 in St Brelade, parents James Joyce and Anne La Source.
Whether or not this your fellow, I don't know!! I imagine you have probably researched him already.
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James Joyce was a stockman par excellence. One of his first appearances in our newspapers was to advertise his services as a stock drover to take stock inland. His associate was called Mills. He was highly praised as manager of Tururau station. Horse management would have been of prime importance.
One of our important historians claimed that JPJ was in Australia for a time before coming to New Zealand about 1857. I have not found his sea passage. Numerous ships sailed back and forth between our countries. It is possible that his father went to Australia as well. I shall look for this.
Interestingly JPJ married Jane Cadzien in 1861. She appears to have ttravelled south alone before the marriage. I have details about her family background.
Children born to the couple have names that bear some resemblance to children you mention, but in one case Fanny becomes the male Francis.
1863 Lucy Jane - died young.
1864 James Frederick Parker - not in BDM, but found in newspaper. Followed father as editor.
1866 George Oliver ( sometimes Oliver George)
1868 John Arthur Francis - died young
1869 Edith Mary (father not recorded. OnlyJane. But a member of the family.
1870 Aline Emily
1875 Maud Bertha
1875 Letitia Elizabeth ( probably 1873) died at 10 years
1876 Walter Gilmour
I have their marriages.
I have often wondered about the brothers/sisters of John Joyce of Beckington, especially James. I did not know about William, who seems to have relevance to me in relation to naming patterns. I have copied out pages and pages of names, and many of the ones you mention are in my lists but I could not connect them. Now I look forward to charting what I have.
It is interesting that you mention Cork. I traced the father of the Portsea Island James Joyce (who was born on the same day as JPJ in 1834.) to Limerick. This was exactly nine months after the marriage of his parents. I could find no further mention of that child James (b1834). Without checking I think that James Snr was born in 1809 in Limerick. I will check that. I took numerous notes from old records a friend supplied. He was a mariner and I was able to trace his ships. He had been on HMS Challenger just before it was wrecked after a massive earthquake disturbed the ocean. He was not aboard at the time. He sailed on several other HMS ships. There is one document available about one of his voyages but so far I have not been able to source it. It was difficult to separate him from another of the same name.
Southern parts of Ireland interest me also because my DNA test suggested a strong connection to Cork.
That test also returns a huge number of names of people having connections with the surnames of the Beckington wives. See how desperate I have become! I figure that their descendants will have their mitochondrial DNA along with Joyce genes and that I could have those elements of DNA too.
Is Smith a relevant name to the Beckington Joyces? Or Roberts?
I think that you are right in that family members followed each other around the world. There are several clusters of Joyce families here who do seem to have a lot in common. I forgot to mention that JPJ sold safety fuses for mining purposes as one of his jobs. They were Brunton fuses, and oddly enough Brunton himself brought his family to New Zealand and ultimately settled them a few miles from JPJ. More importantly he appears in newspapers as supporting JPJ when he was campaigning for his seat in the House of Representatives. From memory Brunton was located in the U.K. close to the Joyces we discuss.
Michael Joyce, known as Captain Joyce and not too far from JPJ, had a son who also moved into politics like JP - John Joyce of Lyttelton, a lawyer, I think.
Joyces figured in coastal shipping. Yet others, including a James Joyce, were part of the rediscovery of the Auckland Islands south of New Zealand. Real adventuresrs all.
Recently I have been looking at a Matthew Lee Joyce who was in New Zealand and the only Joyce fathering children here in the 1850s. He came into money and set up a butchery in the centre of Christchurch. It would appear that his marriage became awkward. He drowned in the Hokitika River when on business there. The Lee/Leigh part of his name is significant because I have found an 1851 Census document where Margaret Smith, nee Leigh, widow, had two boarders, James Joyce and James Moffoot (alternative spelling differentiating him from James Moffat living next door). A child in that house, born 1848, came to New Zealand and married in the same small settlement as JPJ. Her descendants show a DNA connection to us.
I am spreading this document too wide, so I will stop now. I want to look for Alexander, Time-Ball keeper. The building was severely damaged in the huge Christchurch earthquake, a shame because we have so few old buildings. I have already noted that he possibly had some extreme political views. Nothing surprising for us. JPJ was fairly outspoken and ruffled a few feathers.
I will stop now. My iPad is getting old and creating some odd words. My apologies if I have not found and corrected them all.
Sincerely,
Mary
PS. Please feel free to correct any glaring errors or false suppositions. - M
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There are a lot of indications that the Jersey Joyces are also connected by DNA. The James Joyce you mention also appears in this thread. He died at sea in 1845, on board a Jersey Ship, Ulysses. His father was James Joyce, born 1800, and James Snr was described as having been from Newcastle. From memory, this James Joyce was also a mariner, and his second wife, née Elizabeth Le Brun, also came to New Zealand with her unmarried daughter and her married daughter Harriet, aboard the Rhea Sylvia. They were with Harriet's husband Stephen Lawrence and other family. Stephen and Harriet had a further nine children in New Zealand. One of their daughters is described in a newspaper article about her wedding as the granddaughter of Jersey's Captain James Joyce.
Another of that family also featured in coastal shipping here - Captain Daniel Joyce, a brother of James above?
There are possible Joyce connections everywhere. Families on the Isle of Mann appear to link, as well as those of White Mill, Dorset.
Australian Joyces are deserving of research as well.
No one appears to be mentioning James Joyce , the writer. His eldest sister spent most of her life in New Zealand and was a music teacher where I learnt music as a child. Once I got past his fame I began to look at his Ancestry,and there were many surprises there too. Some of his cousins and ancestors figure hugely in my research. Proof is, of course, hard to find.
Goodnight from New Zealand at 11.51 pm.
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I have just checked to confirm that Mary Ann, the wife of Alexander Joyce, died in 1866. Alexander Joyce then married Emily Hayes In 1867. A child called Alexander James appears to have been born to them in 1868. The child lived for only 4 months. Their second child, Alaric, was born in 1880.
Interestingly I have a fourth cousin DNA connection to a Hayes. It will be interesting to follow this lead. Thank you once again for all of the information above.