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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: BoslemBoy on Tuesday 11 July 17 09:32 BST (UK)
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In the 1911 Census Nellie Chandler, aged 9, born Lewisham in Kent, is listed as living with her grandmother Margaret Chandler in Hayfield, Derbyshire. I have been trying, and failing, to discover anything about this Nellie. I cannot find any likely GRO birth entry 1901-03. Margaret had three children: Frederick J Carrington (1873, Farnworth near Bolton), Elizabeth A Carrington (1875, Farnworth), and Charlotte Hannah Howarth (1885, Sheffield). I do not know which of these was the parent of Nellie. In 1911 Frederick Chandler was unmarried and living with his mother and Nellie. Charlotte had married in 1907 and was living elsewhere. I have checked using the surnames Carrington, Howarth and Chandler (with variations). Can anyone help identify Nellie Chandler from Lewisham?
BB
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Nellie could be a nickname so her birth will be under another name.
There is this one Dec 1901 Lewisham
Chandler Lilian Margaret 1d 1150
Chandler Lilias Margaret 1d 1150 - MMN Jones per GRO index
If her grandmother was Margaret there is a link there
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Most likely it is Emily Lily Alexandra Chandler born Lewisham 1902 mmn Purkiss.
There's a Lewisham marriage in 1901 - Frederick Charles Chandler and Emily Elizabeth Purkiss are on the same register page.
EDIT - no, it's not that family. Emily Lily (Lily) has siblings Frederick (1903) Ivy (1905), Daisy (1909).
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Where do all the different surnames come from - Chandler - Carrington - Howarth ???
A family tree has Nellie Howarth daughter of Charlotte but not sure if this is correct.
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Many thanks Milliepede and Shaun. The Lilian Margaret 1901 looks possible - I had noticed it but couldn't reconcile it with Fred still being single in 1911 and having no link to a Jones, or to living in Kent.
No doubt the certificate would prove this one way or the other.
Frederick was James, not Charles, alas.
Margaret Prince (1849, Chester/Great Boughton) seems to have had three husbands, although as yet I've only got a GRO marriage entry for Thomas Chandler (1889, Salford).
I saw a family tree while browsing Ancestry at the weekend - there was no support evidence for alleging Charlotte as the mother, and the tree even listed a fourth husband sandwiched between Howarth and Chandler (with no GRO reference provided, or that I could discover). Therefore I remain sceptical, and it's why I've turned to RootsChat colleagues for help.
BB
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Could be Charlotte - she was 17 in 1901 :-\ but then the birth of Nellie would be under Howarth not Chandler and I don't see one. Plus the family aren't in Kent unless she was sent away to give birth.
So Margaret Prince becomes Carrington then Howarth then Chandler - intriguing!
I see her father is Richard Prince deceased waterman? on the 1889 marriage.
What became of the other sister Elizabeth Carrington?
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It's not Lilias Margaret. You can find her in the 1911 census easily enough.
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Is this Margaret in 1881
George Howarth 34
Margaret 29
Frederick J 7 - birth Frederick James Carrington MMN Prince
Elizabeth 5
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Shaun - good spot.
Milliepede - that's the correct 1881 Howarth census reference. Charlotte's birth was registered as Howard in 1885. Margaret is at Runcorn (with father Richard) in 1861 and I have the 1891 Chandler entry in Runcorn and the 1901 entry in Birkenhead. Elizabeth Ann seems to be in Hulme (Manchester) in 1891 and South Manchester in 1901 - no link there to Kent.
BB
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This wouldn't be the same Margaret as well would it?!
Marriage 1867 Farnworth
Margaret Jane Prince 18 father Richard Prince waterman
William Brownbell/bill 21 father Thomas Brownbell/bill shoemaker
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Bear with me :D
Margaret Brownhill
George Howarth
Marriage Jun 1877 Bolton
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Brownbell was the fourth husband on the Ancestry tree - but positioned third not first. I've not got Jane as a second name anywhere but Richard the waterman backs things up.
I've also noted the 1877 marriage, Bolton reg office or Reg Attending, for George Hawarth (Howarth) and Margaret Brownhill. What a convoluted business this is! Perhaps she never married James Carrington (allegedly born Ireland, 1849)?
Thanks
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Can't see further details on the 1877 marriage - maybe someone has access and could confirm her father for us.
Yes James Carrington may not have made it up the aisle for some reason.
Brownbell is definitely the first husband as she is only 18 and a spinster.
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If the 1867 marriage is of my Margaret (age right, father matches, location just across the Mersey from her Runcorn home - just the oddity of Jane as a second name), then it's another of life's co-incidences that this marriage was at Farnworth in Widnes and she then ended up (unmarried?) with James Carrington in Farnworth in Bolton (c15 miles away) just six years later.
James Carrington died in Farnworth (Bolton) in 1876, and the timing of this is right for an 1877 marriage.
However - we're still scratching our heads over a birth registration for Nellie Chandler, born 1902.
BB
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Yes it's a real head scratcher.
Could there be another child we don't know about apart from
Frederick Carrington
Elizabeth Carrington
Charlotte Howarth
The Chandler surname for Nellie doesn't match any of the above candidates.
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There's a picture of Frederick J Carrington with mother Margaret on the tree. Pity we can't ask her who Nellie was!
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The 2 Jun 1867 marriage of Margaret Jane Prince was witnessed by James Parr and Mary Ann Parr.
These people may be the James Parr and Mary Hannah Prince who married 13 May 1866 at Farnworth - her father named as Richard Prince, waterman. Margaret Prince was a witness.
In the 1871 census Margaret Brownhill, 20 b Chester, is in Runcorn as a visitor in the household of the widowed Mary Ann Parr, 21 b Chester.
It looks as though Margaret and Mary Ann (aka Mary Hannah) were sisters?
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Yes - Mary Hannah married James Parr but he died aged 21 in 1870. She then married Charles Moores in 1871. In 1891 the 15 yr old Elizabeth A Carrington is living with her aunt and uncle Moores in Openshaw (Manchester).
I'm sure I found Elizabeth in Gorton (Manchester) in 1901 but can't relocate the reference. I can't find her in 1911 as yet.
Thanks for your help and suggestions.
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I think we can rule out Elizabeth Ann Carrington as being the mother of Nellie. In 1902 she married Joseph Kernan in Chorlton (Manchester). That brings us back to Fred or Charlotte.
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Possible marriage for Frederick
Frederick James Carrington to Florence Ellison 21/12/1912 register office Charlton Manchester
He was a bachelor aged 33 and a sewage labourer. Father James Carrington deceased
Florence was 24 no occupation or father mentioned on certificate
Both living 27 Rusholme Street.
Witnessed by Samuel and Annie Gill
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Regarding the census where Nellie age 9 is living with her grandmother, I have noticed that Frederick J is also living there and that his future wife Florence Ellison is a servant in the same household, a big maybe but possible that they are the parents
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Thanks Jolee
Apart from Fred shaving six or seven years off his age the rest fits very neatly. Well-spotted re Florence.
Everything is falling into place .... except for poor Nellie!
BB
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Good spot with future wife Florence the servant, but she is only 23 and Nellie 9 so rather young to have been her mother.
Fred is of an age to have been married before but says he is single and a bachelor so can only come back to Charlotte being her mother :-\
Is it possible to contact the owner of the tree that has her as the mother to see if any more info.
Birthplace of Lewisham Kent doesn't seem to fit with anyone either ???
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I'm inclined to rule out Fred too. Florence Ellison gave birth to a daughter, Ada Annie Ellison, in the second quarter of 1912. No separate mother's maiden name is recorded. Frederick and Florence married in December 1912. A son, Frederick, was born to the couple in 1920. I suspect that Frederick was not the father of Ada, and that the December 1912 marriage was one of mutual support if not convenience. At least I shall record Ada's father as being 'unknown' on the relevant family tree. Had Frederick been the father then a much earlier marriage would likely have taken place.
I remain at a loss as to where to go from here, as I cannot see a way of contacting the owner of the published family tree that claims that Nellie is the daughter of Charlotte Howarth.
Many thanks for your help and your thoughts during this search.
BB
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Given that someone new might come to this post I would just like to summarise where we are at. We still do not know when and where, and under what names, Nellie Chandler's birth was registered. We can find just three children for Grandmother Margaret Chandler, and so Nellie would need to be either a Carrington or Howarth (Haworth/Howard). Contrary to what was stated earlier, Elizabeth Ann Carrington did not marry Joseph Kernan: that was a different Elizabeth Carrington who, in 1901, was with her family in Booth Street, Manchester. I have also been advised that Frederick J Carrington was out of the country for some time in 1911-12; on his return Ada Ellison was re-registered under the name Carrington, and a little later in 1912 Frederick married the girl's mother Florence Ellison. We have located Charlotte Howarth in the 1889 and 1901 censuses, but have Elizabeth A Carrington just for 1891 (Openshaw, Manchester, with an aunt). Frederick we have for 1881 but not again until 1911. Thus linking anyone to Kent has not proved possible.
Unless any one can update the above then I suspect that we will be crossing our fingers that an answer will be found in the 1921 Census.
BB
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Update: the birth certificate for Charlotte Hannah Howarth (Howard in the register) gives her d.o.b. as 31/12/1884, and her mother as "Margaret Howard late Brownhill formerly Prince". This information is consistent with our earlier researches. (Thanks go to GRO for the £6 PDF certificate!) It doesn't answer my original question re Nellie Chandler but does fill out a little of our understanding.