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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Bobby G on Wednesday 12 July 17 12:27 BST (UK)
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I'm trying to find the couple, William W TURNBULL and his wife Dorothy M GAMBRILL - these details were provided by the NSW BMD site in which it was a marriage in 1934, Hurstville.
I've spent some time on trove looking for Wiliam, but nothing stood out. Also looked through Findmypast but found nothing either. If someone has access to Ancestry electoral rolls and could take a look that would be great.
I research all Australian GAMBRILLS and connections. I'm not sure how this Dorothy lady connects other than she maybe Doris Eileen Gambrill b.1912. I have her married in 1951 to a CARPENTER so there could of been a marriage before this time.
Thanks for any assistance.
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Your William, maybe?
Woronora Cemetery:
William Willoughby Turnbull 22/11/1977 Ashes Scattered
Dorothy May Turnbull 19/02/1965 Ashes Ee - Rose Garden 7 - 0027
TURNBULL William Death notice 22-11-1977 Death late of Penshurst Sydney Morning Herald 23-11-1977
TURNBULL Dorothy May Death notice 19-2-1965 Death 69 late of Penshurst Sydney Morning Herald 20-2-1965
27718/1977 William Willoughby TURNBULL parents James and Kathleen Mary
13695/1965 Dorothy May TURNBULL parents George Frederick and Mary HURSTVILLE
Jamjar
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Thanks Jamjar... i've looked into it a bit from what you have provided.
TURNBULL William Death notice 22-11-1977 Death late of Penshurst Sydney Morning Herald 23-11-1977
death notice says he was known as Bill Evans... husband of the late Dolly, brother of Ivor, Arthur and Tom.
And at NSW BMD, 27718/1977 parents James and Kathleen Mary
Woronora Cemetery: William Willoughby Turnbull 22/11/1977 Ashes Scattered
Dorothy May Turnbull 19/02/1965 Ashes Ee - Rose Garden 7 - 0027
TURNBULL Dorothy May Death notice 19-2-1965 Death 69 late of Penshurst Sydney Morning Herald 20-2-1965
13695/1965 Dorothy May TURNBULL parents George Frederick and Mary HURSTVILLE
Jamjar
Death notice says Dorothy May TURNBULL of Penshurst St, Penshurst. (nee Evans), loved wife of William. aged 69.
There are no Gambrills in Australia during that time (early 1900's) with the name George Frederick, or the other way around. having said that, I'll continue to look to alternates. I do have a 2 x George <different middle name> Gambrill & Mary that had children around that time....
The name Evans has appeared for the both of them...
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Did you notice the the BDM listing for the marriage also included the word Kite?
2532/1930 Dorothy M KITE to Edwin G W ARGAET BUNGENDORE
16874/1934 William W TURNBULL to Dorothy M KITE GAMBRIEL HURSTVILLE
An online tree has Dorothy Margaret Kite marrying Edwin, with her born in Young in 1911. BDM has her parents as Daniel W and Catherine J. It says they had 8 children.
Very odd.
Jamjar
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May be of interest http://www.library.turnbullclan.com/tca_genealogy/TCA2017-o/g2/p1151.htm
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2532/1930 Dorothy M KITE to Edwin G W ARGAET BUNGENDORE
She was Dorothy Margaret and they were both still alive in 1980 and living in Harden.
Debra :)
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There are 3 entires for the William Turnbull / Dorothy Gambrill Kite marriage in 1934. All have the same reg. number. I dont know what is going on here but I think i'll phone the archives today and see what they say.
- 16874/1934 TURNBULL WILLIAM W GAMBRIEL DOROTHY M KITE HURSTVILLE
- 16874/1934 TURNBULL WILLIAM W GAMBRILL DOROTHY M HURSTVILLE
- 16874/1934 TURNBULL WILLIAM W KITE DOROTHY M HURSTVILLE
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The marriage is INDEXED three times so that you can find it. Her name was Dorothy GAMBRILL nee KITE.
Marriages March Quarter 1913
GAMBRILL, Benjamin (KITE)
KITE, Dorothy M (GAMBRILL)
Thanet, Kent
Vol. 2a Page. 1842
Debra :)
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The marriage is INDEXED three times so that you can find it. Her name was Dorothy GAMBRILL nee KITE.
Marriages March Quarter 1913
GAMBRILL, Benjamin (KITE)
KITE, Dorothy M (GAMBRILL)
Thanet, Kent
Vol. 2a Page. 1842
Debra :)
I've phoned NSW BMD, and they said it appears that there was an amendment. They cannot view the actual record, but that is what they reckon has happened.
If she was born Kite then that ends the research for these 2.
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Hi.
Debra has given you accurate information re the three 'entries' that appear at the online INDEX. I think that the explanation you have been given over the phone from NSW BDM is actually from their call centre team, and of course, the call centre does not have access to the actual record and likely have not ever been working with the actual records, so umm... may not understand why there's often several 'entries' in the index for the one event.
May I suggest that you consider obtaining an official transcription of the actual marriage registration from an Official Transcriber, appointed by NSW BDM.
ADD ... likely the column where the bride's surname is recorded has more than one surname listed there. So the index has more than one entry for the one event.
JM
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There were at least 2 children of the KITE/GAMBRILL marriage.
GAMBRILL, IRIS LILIAN MAY
MMS- KITE
Year 1914
S Quarter in THANET
Volume 02A Page 2129
GAMBRILL, BENJAMIN GEORGE FREDERICK
MMS- KITE
Year 1916
M Quarter in THANET
Volume 02A Page 1884
Sue
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There are no Gambrills in Australia during that time (early 1900's) with the name George Frederick, or the other way around. having said that, I'll continue to look to alternates. I do have a 2 x George <different middle name> Gambrill & Mary that had children around that time....
As you will note the given names of the GAMBRILL son born 1916 (above) reflect a possible link.
Sue
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There's so many occasions where the indexes have several entries for the one event that there's actually an option to check if there's more than one entry against any registration no.
At the 'top' of each online search page there's a section "Search by number only". The default is NO, but if you select YES, you can search by the registration number. I am surprised the call centre staff do not have a 'standard response' to enquiries about this.
JM
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Possibly Dorothy was widowed in 1925.
Deaths Jun 1925
GAMBRILL Benjamin E
Aged 37
At Elham 2a /1258
Sue
EDIT Incorrect information. See Reply #23
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Hi.
Debra has given you accurate information re the three 'entries' that appear at the online INDEX. I think that the explanation you have been given over the phone from NSW BDM is actually from their call centre team, and of course, the call centre does not have access to the actual record and likely have not ever been working with the actual records, so umm... may not understand why there's often several 'entries' in the index for the one event.
May I suggest that you consider obtaining an official transcription of the actual marriage registration from an Official Transcriber, appointed by NSW BDM.
JM
Ok, I hear what you are saying.
With regards the transcription, theirs is on the list to get, as is all Gambrills (I currently have 136 transcriptions out of the 329 that are available)
I initiated public research of William and Dorothy because I had found no connection to my tree.
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I initiated public research of William and Dorothy because I had found no connection to my tree.
Well, have you now?
Sue
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I've been looking at findmypast using the references above (thankyou) for Benjamin and Dorothy.
I think at this point, I need connect Benjamin to my tree so i'll do some further research as to his linage. There are a couple of Gambrill branches that I havent been able to link to mine, so i'm hoping I can make that connection with Ben then I can follow through to his wife Dorothy and NSW.
Thankyou for your guidance, thoughts, suggestions etc.
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I think Bobby, you need to consider that the pair buried at Woronora may not be your couple. There are other Dorothy M and William Turnbull at the cemetery:
http://www.woronoracemetery.org.au/finding-loved-ones
The fact that their marriage was registered at Hurstiville doesn't necessarily mean that they remained in the area.
The Ryerson listings and burials could just be a coincidence.
Therefore, Dorothy's parents may not be George Frederick and Mary.
Jamjar
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There's quite a number of entries for the surname GAMBRILL throughout NSW in the early 1900s Electoral Rolls and in the Sands Directories too.
For example:
NSW ER 1902, PARRAMATTA, polling at Parramatta
Benjamin GAMBRILL, Western Road, labourer
Emily Hannah GAMBRILL, Western Road, domestic duties
Sands Sydney Alpha Directory 1905
Mrs B GAMBRILL, Western Road, Parramatta.
Red post,
Yes, re Hurstville registration ... if a clergyman conducted the ceremony, then it was his responsibility to register the marriage. He was not obliged to register it at the closest office, although most did so. The ceremony could be conducted anywhere in NSW, and registered at any office. When the ceremony was conducted by the Registrar, then of course the registrar recorded it at his own office.
JM
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The Turnbull Clan website has William Willoughby with the same parents as on the death registration, that we have, but it shows the siblings as James and Leonora.
So the SMH notice is odd indeed, if he is our man.
Jamjar
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I think Bobby, you need to consider that the pair buried at Woronora may not be your couple. There are other Dorothy M and William Turnbull at the cemetery:
http://www.woronoracemetery.org.au/finding-loved-ones (http://www.woronoracemetery.org.au/finding-loved-ones)
The fact that their marriage was registered at Hurstiville doesn't necessarily mean that they remained in the area.
The Ryerson listings and burials could just be a coincidence.
Therefore, Dorothy's parents may not be George Frederick and Mary.
Janice
Thankyou Janice, there just isnt enough evidence at the moment is their. At some point I will order her marriage doc, but in the mean time i'll follow Benjamins path in Kent, as mentioned above, before I venture back here, and that should be with Dorothy leading the way.
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There's quite a number of entries for the surname GAMBRILL throughout NSW in the early 1900s Electoral Rolls and in the Sands Directories too.
For example:
NSW ER 1902, PARRAMATTA, polling at Parramatta
Benjamin GAMBRILL, Western Road, labourer
Emily Hannah GAMBRILL, Western Road, domestic duties
Sands Sydney Alpha Directory 1905
Mrs B GAMBRILL, Western Road, Parramatta.
Thanks yes I have documented most of those for Gambrills.
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Re Electoral Roll for William and Dorothy TURNBULL in 1935 and in 1936.
I have checked the NSW electoral roll for the State seat of HURSTVILLE, and polling at Hurstville. I confirm that there’s NO entry for anyone of the surname TURNBULL at that Hurstville polling station.
The NSW BDM online index points to 2 October 1934 as the date for the marriage of the couple. The NSW BDM historic districts did not need to follow the geographical boundaries for the local government areas or for the police districts, or the electoral districts. Each government department could decide (and change from time to time) what lines to draw on what maps.
JM
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I think there is little doubt that the Dorothy May GAMBRILL who married William Willoughby TURNBULL is the same woman who married Benjamin GAMBRILL in Kent.
So you have Dorothy May (nee KITE) formerly GAMBRILL who married to become Dorothy May TURNBULL.
Some census material shows her with parents George and Mary (nee EARLY) KITE, living at 2 Rose Hill, Ramsgate, and we have her birth.
Dec 1891
KITE, Dorothy May
2a/919
Thanet
Benjamin GAMBRILL can likewise be found on census records as a stepson of one Frederick W. WISE at 15 Camden Rd. Ramsgate. Ancestry has the records for his time in the UK Royal Navy . He joined in 1914 and finished in 1926.
Please note, my finding of the death of one Benjamin E GAMBRILL was not the husband of Dorothy. (Will edit)
There are some newspaper snips for the couple. I am not able to seethe full content, but perhaps someone else will.
The essence of them-
ALLEGED DESERTION
... Yesterday, the Ramsgate Borough Bench adjourned for a fortnight a case in which Benjamin Gambrill, leading stoker on H.M.S. Droadoonght, was summoned (by) his wife, Dorothy May Gambrill, who alleged desertion. Mr. Marchant, solicitor, appeared ...
Published: Saturday 31 May 1919
Thanet Advertiser
Two birth notices with correspond to the births I have detailed above.
BIRTHS. June 7th, 7, Salisbury-avenue, Ramsgate, the wife of Benjamin Gambrill, of daughter.
Thanet advertiser 1914
BIRTHS. GAMBRILL, January I9th, 34, Plains of Waterloo, the wife of Benjamin Gambrill, of son.
Thanet advertiser 1916.
Sue
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:-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ One of the suburbs of Sydney NSW is Ramsgate, and umm... being so NSW Centric I was about to start searching my Ramsgate NSW paperwork as Ramsgate is not too far from Hurstville - about 5 kilometres. Then it dawned Thanet well that's in Kent... and Sue's noted the newspaper and difficulty with access, so it is NOT in Australia ... ::) ::) ::)
Can I say 'Senior Moment' as my excuse...
JM
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I did a double take at Ramsgate and Waterloo. My senior moments are becoming more frequent. ;D
Births:
GAMBRILL, IRIS LILIAN MAY mmn KITE
1914 S Quarter in THANET Volume 02A Page 2129
GAMBRILL, BENJAMIN GEORGE FREDERICK mmn KITE
1916 M Quarter in THANET Volume 02A Page 1884
Marriage: SEPT Quarter 1932 GAMBRILL Iris L M SARGEANT Sidney C G Tenterden 2a 2925
I wonder if?: 4900/1971 SARGEANT Iris Lily Unknown Unkown SYDNEY
SARGEANT Iris Lily Death notice 23-8-1971 Death late of North Sydney Sydney Morning Herald 25-8-1971
Probate says Lily Iris: https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/1346175
Oops, I see the births were put up in Reply #10.
Birth of Sidney?:
SARGEANT, SIDNEY CHARLES GEORGE mmn AVERY
1907 S Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 337
There's a Mrs I L Sargeant London to Melbourne- address in Melbourne, Haworth Court, 57 Glenferrie Rd, Kew - 13 July 1948 on the ORONTES
Could this be a death for Sidney in 1947?:
SARGEANT, SIDNEY CHARLES 41
GRO Reference: 1947 M Quarter in PADDINGTON Volume 05D Page 251
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Benjamin GAMBRILL can likewise be found on census records as a stepson of one Frederick W. WISE at 15 Camden Rd. Ramsgate. Ancestry has the records for his time in the UK Royal Navy . He joined in 1914 and finished in 1926.
Sue
I've been trying to get the names of Benjamins parents, the census you mention Sue (1911) lists his mum, Elizabeth. Havent found his father yet, but the Navy records may have him named. I'll see if i can get to the library this weekend to browse ancestry.com for that and census records.
Benjamin was born in 1891, Ramsgate, according to this census and is a Electrical Human.
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Only one Benjamin born 1891+- 2 years:
GAMBRILL, BENJAMIN mmn CHITTENDEN
1891 D Quarter in THANET Volume 02A Page 907
J.
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Marriage:
Elizabeth Sarah Chittenden to Benjamin Harris Gambrill
June quarter 1891
Thanet 2a 1472
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This may just be Dorothy's son:
Deaths Jun 1963
GAMBRILL BENJAMIN G F 47 THANET 5B 875
Possible daughter's death:
Deaths Dec 1966
SARGEANT IRIS L M 52 ASHFORD 5F 17
J.
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Marriage: Elizabeth Sarah Chittenden to Benjamin Harris Gambrill
June quarter 1891
Thanet 2a 1472
I did see that one. I'll investigate some more tomorrow.
Fantastic help, thankyou.
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... Benjamin was born in 1891, Ramsgate, according to this census and is a Electrical Human.
Umm... that's not so, I read it as Electrical Wireman. :)
JM
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So it seems-
Births Jun 1873
CHITTENDEN Elizabeth Sarah
Thanet 2a/762
She married Benjamin GAMBRILL, but later took the name WISE when she joined the household of Frederick William WISE, by 1911. Young Benjamin lived with them. Frederick was a naval pensioner by 1911.
There may have been a WISE/GAMBRILL marriage, but I have not seen it yet.
Sue
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Looking at Benjamin Harris GAMBRILL.
He was aged 6 months at the time of the 1871 census and was with his parents Wallace H (Henry) GAMBRIEL (sic- this is the surname as transcribed) and Agnes. Wallace was a mariner.
Another son was 2 years and named Wallace H.
They lived at 25 Waterloo Place Whitstable and were all born at Whitstable.
Wallace and Agnes were married in Dec quarter, 1867 and her fuller name was Jemima Agnes (nee Harris).
GAMBLE (sic) Wallace Henry
HARRIS Jemima Agnes
Blean 2a/ 1223
Other census material and various items are available for these family members.
Sue
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... Benjamin was born in 1891, Ramsgate, according to this census and is a Electrical Human.
Umm... that's not so, I read it as Electrical Wireman. :)
JM
I prefer the transcribers version ;D
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Looking at Benjamin Harris GAMBRILL.
He was aged 6 months at the time of the 1871 census and was with his parents Wallace H (Henry) GAMBRIEL (sic- this is the surname as transcribed) and Agnes. Wallace was a mariner.
Another son was 2 years and named Wallace H.
They lived at 25 Waterloo Place Whitstable and were all born at Whitstable.
Wallace and Agnes were married in Dec quarter, 1867 and her fuller name was Jemima Agnes (nee Harris).
GAMBLE (sic) Wallace Henry
HARRIS Jemima Agnes
Blean 2a/ 1223
Other census material and various items are available for these family members.
Sue
I have followed this line back a bit further with no connection to my tree as yet.
Benjamin Harris Gambrill (b.1871 Whitstable) son of Wallace Henry Gambrill (b.1845 Whitstable) & Jemima Agnes Harris.
Wallace Henry Gambrill (b.1845 Whitstable) son of Daniel Gambriel & Jane (b.1814 Roachhill)
Daniel Gambriel (b.1816 Whitstable) according to 1861 census.
Looks like Daniel may of died in 1875 in Blean but doesnt show parents, will keep looking.
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Looks like he's Daniel Gamble on the '51. Born 1816 Seasalter, Kent. Wife Jane, children Daniel, Ann Jane, Walter, William, Eliza. Occupation: Dredger
Jamjar
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There is a suggestion on myheritage (I dont have a sub so cant view) Daniels parents are John Gambrill (b.1777 Nonington) & Sarah Baker.
Starting to feel a little excited as I have Gambrills in Nonington. Still work to do though.
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Looks like he's Daniel Gamble on the '51. Born 1816 Seasalter, Kent. Wife Jane, children Daniel, Ann Jane, Walter, William, Eliza. Occupation: Dredger
Jamjar
Searched Gamble and other variations for their marriage, eventually found it under .... Campbell
M.19 Jan 1841, Whitstable, All Saints.
Daniels father is John.
I'm confident this is all this going to link to my Gambrills so I have started adding information, documents sources etc to my tree.
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Where did you get the marriage details?
Pleased you have made a connection.
J.
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Where did you get the marriage details?
Findmypast. I have a sub.
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I'm surprised that I can't see it on FreeBDM.
Was it a church register?
What is Jane's maiden and father's name, please?
J.
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I'm surprised that I can't see it on FreeBDM.
Was it a church register?
What is Jane's maiden name, please?
J.
Jane Wraight (may come up as Wright) her father is William.
Record set - Kent, Canterbury Archdeaconry Marriages.
Daniels surname maybe seen as cambell (no 'p')
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I was hoping to find them on the '41 census, but not happening.
Lots of William Wraight in Kent, but not in Devonshire where Jane was supposedly born, as per ' 61 census.
J.
Ah, Roachill was Kent back then.
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I've been trying to find Daniels parents on '41 '51 and '61 census.
There is windowed Sarah gambrill (aged 81) in 1861 census in Herne (also born in Herne). She is there as a lodger and job description 'Railway L Wife' which suggests to me that the husband worked on the railways. Not sure what the L (maybe its not a L?) refers to. Street is Waterloo Place.
I've also got a marriage for a Sarah Baker and John Gambrill, 1801 Whitstable, All Saints. But I have no connection to Daniel.
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oh boy, one needs to vary the searching thats for sure.
I may of found Daniels birth.
The transcriber lists this chap as follows:
First name(s) Danl Wm Henry
Last name Camburn
Fortunately i'm able to view the document and looking at it I'd give the Daniel William Henry as correct. The surname could be many different names. Parents listed as John and Sarah, John is a Dreger. Baptised Whitstable, All Saints 24 Jun 1830, Birth date 23 Sep 1815. Abode is Seasalter (which is where Daniels first child was baptised)
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oh boy, one needs to vary the searching thats for sure.
I may of found Daniels birth.
The transcriber lists this chap as follows:
First name(s) Danl Wm Henry
Last name Camburn
Fortunately i'm able to view the document and looking at it I'd give the Daniel William Henry as correct. The surname could be many different names. Parents listed as John and Sarah, John is a Dreger. Baptised Whitstable, All Saints 24 Jun 1830, Birth date 23 Sep 1815. Abode is Seasalter (which is where Daniels first child was baptised)
Just cross checking here, I doubt the name listed above is Camburn, whilst there are quite a few children born in Whistable, 5 years either side of 1815 with the surname Camburn, none have parents John and Sarah.