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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: EmFrank on Saturday 15 July 17 00:01 BST (UK)
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Can someone help me with reading the words I cant read on the attached marriage record.
I only know that the bridegroom is John Halvorsen, and the bride is Karen Kirstine Isachsen. On most of the other marriage entries on the page, the ages in years of the couple are included, but not for this entry.
Regards
Frank
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Hi Frank
I have tried to decypher this but it is hard to read. All I can make out that could be of importance is the farm's name: Melsom gaard. (Melsom Farm) and that he is from Hole parish (it looks like Hole, I think).
Also, although I am only speculating, it looks as though he could have been married before. I see (I think) a surname "Pernillesen" - I may be wrong though.
Ian
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Hi Ian,
Thanks for that, which opens up some new areas for me. i wondered if 'Hole' might be 'Holt' where their children were born, (assuming its the same couple) which could indicate that is where he returned to.
I see that there is a 'Melsom' farm at Stokke, so that matches, thankyou.
I wondered if 1783 could be his birth year??
Could you get anything from the bride's details. I am curious as to why there doesnt seem to be any any indication of her age, which is entered for all other marriages on the page.
I will search if I can find an earlier marriage for John.
Thanks again
Frank
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Hi Ian,
Sorry, I just realised that you have already given me information about the bride, re Melsom farm.
Also, I think that the words at the end on John's, could be Jern Verk, which I think means ironworks. I see that there was an ironworks about 40km from Stokke, and also one at Holt.
Regards
Frank
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Hi Frank
Do you have the links for their children's births please in Holt?
Ian
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Hi Ian,
Yes, i have 6 baptism records, from 1823 to 1835. A couple of them include 'Nas Jern Vork' that I understand is the name of the ironworks at Holt. I have attached one of them 'Christiane Kirstine' which is item 8 on the list. In this record, the mother is recorded as Karen Isaachsen. In others she is Karen Kristine Halvosen. it varies.
I can provide you with the details of dates and pages with the others if it helps. I havnt yet made copies of the others, but could do so if it helps.
Regards
Frank
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Hi Ian,
Here are the other births, all for Holt, Aust-Agder, I have given the actual link for the last one. If you need them all, let me know.
Halvor Christian b 19 July 1823 (Page30)
Ingeborg Sophie b 23 May 1825 P51
Jacob Aal b 27 July 1828 P73
Louisa Andrea b 21 Oct 1830 P98
Karen Kirstine b 27 Sept 1835 P13 https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/812/13
Regards
Frank
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Hi Frank
They will do fine thanks. I'll take a look tomorrow.
Ian
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Hi
I have had a look around the Holt Church Books but they are a bit limited unfortunately so there wasn't much to find.
According to a tree on Ancestry this is John Halvorsen's birth record:
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/9531/45727/82 - nr. 36
Ian
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Hi Ian. i had seen that entry, but wasnt convinced. I think the same Ancestry source had John Halvorsen's wife as Karen Kirstine Jensdr, which I believe is incorrect.
Anyway, thanks for your help. It has directed me towards some new information.
Regards
Frank
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wife as Karen Kirstine Jensdr, which I believe is incorrect.
Hi
I took a look again and they have her name as "Karen Kiah Christiana Isook"
By the way who and when did the family emigrate to USA?
Ian
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Hi Ian,
I believe her name was Karen Kirstine Isachsen. It is spelt Isaach on some records. I dont know when the family migrated, but two of their children have US descendants. They are Ingeborg Sophie, and Halvor Christian. I can check more on that if you are interested.
I have just put a notice on a Norway forum, and have had confirmation that John Halverson was from Holt, Aust-Agder, and that he was 38 1/2 in 1832, making his birth 1893, and thence the son of Halvor Madesen, as you thought.
My connection is that I am trying to trace my gggrandfather who was from Arendal (near Holt) and he jumped ship in Melbourne Australia in the early 1850s, and changed his name. I have found a DNA match with descendants of John Halvorsen, via both of this above mentioned children, which is why I am pursuing this line.
I feel that I am getting much closer.
Regards from Australia
Frank
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Hi Frank
Good idea to post in Norway. I have found your post in Norway. Nice to see what it actually says. My area is really Sweden but I can get around in Scandinavia.
What was the name of your ancestor in Australia and was Arendal recorded on a certificate. Also, how do you know he jumped ship.
Ian
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Hi Ian,
His name was Christopher Tudor. The name Christopher is OK, but not Tudor. it could have been Theodor, which I understand could be pronounced similarly, but havent found anyone of that name in Norway.
Arendal came from his naturalisation record and the birth records of his 11 children, for which most he recorded his birthplace as Arendal, Norway, and a for a couple he said Christiana.
The jumping ship came from passed down family stories. On his 1887 naturalisation record he said he came on the ship Copernicus in 1857. it only came to Australia in 1854 and there is a record of a ships deserter from the Copernicus- Claus August Jacob, aged 20 , from Norway (Fair complexion, light brown hair, blue eyes, cannot speak English, 5 pounds reward) I Cant find him either in Norwegian records.
His birth date, from 15 records, is that it is from August 1831 to January 1835, with the most likely being 1833/34.
He also recorded that his parents names were Christopher and Elisabeth.
I have looked at lots of possibilities over the years, without finding anyone that would seem to match. Thats why I am now pinning my hopes on DNA.
Regards
Frank
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Hi Frank
I took a dig into the books and found this.....interesting I think:
I have helped with Scandinavian seaman before and have seen that those who jumped ship nearly all have changed their surnames so as not to get caught. So the surname Tudor is most probably made up and not from Norway although you can never be sure. It was fairly common that Norwegians took their surname from the farm they lived at, but no Tudor sounding name was on the list. I took a look at the farm names in Arendal here:
http://en.infodesti.com/NO/Farms/Arendal
I have found a Christopher Christophersen born 3 June 1835 in Arendal. His parents were Christopher, a cobbler and Astrid. Although Astrid is not the recorded Elizabeth, the name could have been recorded incorrectly. I think it might be worth looking into this family.
This Christopher had siblings:
Christine
Randea
Marie
Jens - seaman
Theresia
Tellef
1835 - Birth: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/9402/87325/80
1835 - Arendal Census: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/51206/4
1855 - Arendal Census - No Christopher - https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/51208/6
1865 - Arendal Census - with Astrid and Marie - https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/38154/92?indexing=
There is also a record for a Christopher Christophersen as a seaman - nr 468:
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/42315/165
Here is the search engine for Norway:
https://media.digitalarkivet.no/kb/browse
Ian
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Hi Ian,
I had considered Christopher born 1835, but thought he was probbaly too late, and I tended to think that its was more likley that his mother was Elisabeth. Anyway, i have looked again- the marriage record also says Astri. I wondered if she may have died and he remarried, but acouldnt find anything to support that. i will keep looking.
Re the Chrsitopher who was sailor, if I read it correctly, he came from notteroy, and i found a Christopher Christophersen born at Notteroy of different parents, so probably not our man.
I am curious as how you accessed the censuses and the seamen? I tried accessing censuses and they seem much more limited than you found?
I could look at the census page you gave me the connection to, but i couldnt find it myself on the main website.
Regards
Frank
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Hi
You can search the seaman records for Norway here: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kgy/
And the Censuses here: https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/ft/browse?municipalities%5B0%5D=0903&text=
I hope the links work as they should.
Ian
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Hi Ian,
Thankyou. i have finally manged to be able to access the censuses. In the meantime, i have come up with a possible person. Its probably a long shot, but I would like your opinion as to anything i might be able to do to make it more likely (or unlikely).
I have a DNA match with two children of John Halvorsen and Karen Kirstine Isaachsdr, who had children at Holt near Arendal betrween 1823 and 1835. John Halvorsen was born at Holt in 1793, the son of Halvor Madsen and Ingeborg Johnsdr. Halvor and Ingeborg had five children at Holt, between 1788 and 1800, none of whom were had any children named Christopher or Elisabeth.
Halvor and his sons worked for an ironworks at Holt. Halvor was born about 1755, and was married at Holt in 1787 when he was about 32. There is a record of a Halvor Madsen married to Johanne Monsdr in 1779 at Asker, about 180km north of Arendal, near Oslo. There was an old ironworks at Baerum ironworks, 10km from Asker.
This Halvor Madsen and his wife, had a son Christen, born 1781 at Asker. As far is known, they had no other children. A Christen Halvorsen married to Lisbeth Andersdr in 1826 at Sem, which is about 50km south of Asker. They had a son, Christopher born in 1832 at Lier, Buskerud, near Asker. They had four other children born at Lier between 1826 and 1838. The birth records indicate that Christen Halvorsen was a ‘Guardsman’, which I assume is some sort of military.
So I have a Christopher born in 1832 to Christen and Lisbeth, and who could be a grandson of Halvor Madsen of Holt, if he married twice. This could fit with my man,(born 1831-1835, son of Christopher and Elisabeth) except for the birth location, unless he moved to Holt near Arendal at an early age, perhaps if his father died and the family moved closer to relatives at Holt.
Any thoughts?
Regards
Frank
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Hi Frank
I think it is a quite a long shot unfortunately. The odds of all that fitting are quite small. But you never know.
I know nothing of DNA searching. I have never done it. How does it work? Are the DNA tests so accurate?
Anyway, through experience of searching Swedish and Finnish seaman I have seen that not all the info they gave on certificates was that accurate and sometimes purposely misleading. I mean, Arendal and Oslo are mentioned, this can mean he is hiding something or he can't make his mind up. I do know that some seamen recorded their Seaman's Institute as place of origin.
I have read your old Norwegian post from 2009 and we can assume his recorded parents' names are true as he seemed to have followed a naming pattern for his children.
Also, Was it Oslo or Christiania he gave as place of birth?
Ian
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Hi Ian,
I found that the DNA tests seem to be reasonably ok. Having done the test, in this case with Ancestry, you can search for anyone who has a DNA match with you, starting from very high match, to very low. In this case, they have shown a very high match with me for another direct descendant with one of Christoper Tudor's children, and than a high match for both of us with descendants of two of John Halvorsen's children, who both went to the USA.
Re Christopher's birthplace, he mostly gave Arendal, but in 2 records he gave Christiana. You could be right about him hiding his origin, or maybe in some cases, he just gave the capital city, which is often what people do when asked where they come from.
Re the naming pattern, i agree it all fits quite well, except for naming his first son as James?
Re the 2nd marriage of Halvor Madsen, i now think its very unlikely. i just found him on an 1801 census for Aker, (born 1853 which is ok) but with a son Halvor aged 20 and daughter Berthe Maria aged 15. At that time, the other Halvor was presumably with his other family in Holt (born 1788 to 1800). it also shows Halvor to be a master builder.
So it looks like I start again!!
Regards
Frank