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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: skirl on Tuesday 18 July 17 19:28 BST (UK)
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Brothers William, John, & Andrew Robinson left Dunfanaghy, County Donegal, Ireland for Canada in the 1880s. On all of their death certificates, their mother was listed as Margaret Steen. John Robinson's death certificate has his mother born in Scotland. The other men have her born in Ireland. Margaret Steen Robinson died in Dunfanaghy in 1893 at 70 years old, so she would have been born ca. 1823. I know it's a long shot, but is there any chance of finding Margaret Steen's people in Scotland?
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Just had a quick look on ScotlandsPeople website. There's an Old Parish Register entry 8 November 1829 for a Margaret Steen at Kirknewton & East Calder. Parents John Steen and Jenet Black.
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Thanks Martha.
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No trouble at all. Do you know the first name of Margaret's husband? Do you know if they married in Scotland or Ireland?
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Husband was John Robinson. I checked at Scotland's People & didn't find anything. There's no Irish records online that go back far enough to check.
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I've found what appears to be an OPR marriage record for the parents of the Margaret Steen born / baptised in 1829. It's on ScotlandsPeople:
John Stein and Janet Black 14/06/1829 Kirknewton & East Calder
John Stein and Janet Black 18/06/1829 Currie
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Thanks again. Why would there be different dates & locations for the marriage?
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I've come across this several times while researching my own family tree where the bride and groom lived in different parishes and the marriage was recorded in both.
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I've had another wee look at the OPR births with the 'Stein' spelling instead of 'Steen' and it comes up with 9 Margaret Steins across Scotland from 1815 to 1830. Ages reported on death records aren't always very accurate so narrowing these results down may be difficult, especially when we only have 'Scotland' to go on rather than a county or town. It's a pity Margaret and John's marriage isn't turning up on ScotlandsPeople.
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Statutory registration of births didn't begin in Scotland until 1855 so Margaret's birth may not have been recorded at all. A search of the 1841 Census on ScotlandsPeople for Margaret Stein (nothing for Steen) between the ages of 10 and 20 yields 3 results (search for names beginning with 'Ma' to allow for "Maggie, Margt. etc.) - age 12 in Currie, Midlothian (probably Margaret Steen 1829), age 14 in Muckhart, Perth and age 20 in Dunfermline, Fife. However, the Margaret you're looking for could have been born in Scotland some time in the 1820's and left for Ireland prior to the 1841 Census. I also looked on FamilySearch - there's a Margaret Stein / John Robertson (not Robinson) marriage in Paisley in 1839. However, I couldn't find this marriage on ScotlandsPeople.
I'm afraid I haven't been much help. Hopefully someone else on the forum will have some suggestions for other lines of enquiry you can try.
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Why would there be different dates & locations for the marriage?
The parish registers record the proclamation of banns, rather than the actual marriage ceremony. If the bride lived in one parish and the groom in a different parish, the banns would have to be proclaimed in both, which generates a double record of the same event.
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Just a thought - a search for other people in Dunfanaghy with the surname Steen / Stein around the same time Margaret was living there could identify possible siblings or other relatives. That could help narrow down search results in the Scottish records for Margaret's birth / baptism and Census returns. It's been my experience with relations who migrated between Scotland and Ireland that siblings tended to follow each other (although in my family tree it's been in the opposite direction from Ireland to Scotland).
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Please, please don't go down the road of 'there is only one possible candidate in the records so it must be the right person'.
There are many people whose births, baptisms and marriages were simply never recorded. If you latch on to this Margaret Steen born in 1829, you may be climbing a branch of quite the wrong tree. Or you may not, but you need more evidence to be sure.
In particular, the surname Steen could possibly be an abbreviation of 'Stephen' or 'Steven'.
The Margaret Stein who married John Robertson in 1839 cannot possibly be the one baptised in 1829, as she would not have been old enough to marry just 10 years later. I had no trouble finding the marriage in the church records on SP, by the way.
The 12-year-old Margaret Stein in Currie in 1841 is in a household headed by Thomas Stein, 40, and including Isabella Stein, 35 and six children aged 15 down to 1. None of these children's baptisms are indexed on FamilySearch (Scotland's People is offline at the moment) but it does not look as if this Margaret could be the daughter of John Steen and Janet Black.
John Steen and Janet Black had a son William, baptised in Bo'ness in 1831. I have not found him in the 1841 census at https://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl so I am wondering if perhaps John, Janet, Margaret and William had left Scotland before the 1841 census.
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Forfarian, I'm not suggesting that any of the records I've found are definitely the 'Margaret Steen' skirl is researching. I've only been trying to help by searching for 'possibilities' in the same way I would when working on my own tree. I don't add anyone to my tree unless I'm confident I have sufficient evidence to support it and I wouldn't expect anyone else to do so either.
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I didn't suggest that you would - my comment was intended for any newbies who might be reading this thread. I made that very mistake when I was a beginner and wasted a lot of time on the wrong family.
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It's an easy trap to fall into. Just have to take a wee look around Ancestry to see lots of trees where the owner has obviously just added whole families generated by Hints.
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It's an easy trap to fall into. Just have to take a wee look around Ancestry to see lots of trees where the owner has obviously just added whole families generated by Hints.
The main reason why I avoid Ancestry, MyHeritage and all similar sites like the proverbial plague. In fact I more or less boycott them because of the huge amount of disinformation/misinformation they generate.
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Thanks for the leads Martha & Fofarian.
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Skirl,
You're welcome. As Forfarian has said, in a lot of cases a brick wall will forever be a brick wall because the records don't exist or there isn't enough evidence to confirm that A and B were the parents of C. Sometimes though, when we have various bits of info. about possibly related people but not enough to fit it all together we can stumble upon a new piece of info., even years later, which helps confirm relationships.
Best of luck with your research.
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We all have brickwalls. This does not mean that you stop - keep digging. Think outside the box and see if you can get clues. I have three family names that i am trying to build bridges from Scotland to Ireland. With the Plantation i have been looking at the Undertakers and the areas where they originated. Also looking at the spouses and their families. Occasionally you win a close relative that can fill a few gaps.
All the best
jack Gee
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Brothers William, John, & Andrew Robinson left Dunfanaghy, County Donegal, Ireland for Canada in the 1880s. On all of their death certificates, their mother was listed as Margaret Steen. John Robinson's death certificate has his mother born in Scotland. The other men have her born in Ireland. Margaret Steen Robinson died in Dunfanaghy in 1893 at 70 years old, so she would have been born ca. 1823. I know it's a long shot, but is there any chance of finding Margaret Steen's people in Scotland?
Based on years of research in Ulster, the fact that John's death certificate says his mother was born in Scotland doesn't mean that she was actually born in Scotland.
1) mother might have had Ulster-Scots accent (still not uncommon) so that is was assumed she was born in Scotland
2) family might have called themselves 'Scottish' even in born in Ireland
3) whoever gave the information when John died might have been mistaken
There are lots of variations for Steen- Stinson, Stevens, Stephens, Stevenson are just a few
Have you search church records for baptisms of the Robinson brothers? I don't think you've mentioned what religion the family were? many church records for that period don't suvive but of those that do not all are online.
Now working with the facts-
Death certificate for Margaret Robinson, widow of fisherman, registered by daughter Mary-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1893/06011/4710677.pdf
Could this be the daughter Mary Robinson?
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Donegal/Dunfanaghy/Dunfanaghy_Town__Main_St_/1173351
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Death certificate for William Robinson- born 10 Sept.1844 Dunfanaghy, parents William Robinson & Margaret Stein both born Ireland
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JDNH-PYN
Death certificate for John Robinson- born 17 Mar.1852 Scotland, parents John Robinson (born Ireland) & Margaret Steen (born Scotland)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J67N-6GQ
So, the two certificates show conflicting information.
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aghadowey: I believe that you found the correct Margaret's death info. She's my leading candidate so far because a few times a daughter Mary has popped up on the periphery of things like you found. Of the 3 brothers William, Andrew, & John Robinson only John's death info lists Margaret Steen's birthplace as Scotland. William & Andrew both list Ireland. This was a family of fishermen. I understand that Scots fishermen were common in Dunfanaghy in the 1800s, so the Scottish connection is possible. The records that I have found for this family have come from the Church of Ireland but there is also a Presbyterian congregation in Dunfanaghy that I need to look into.
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I didn't search for Andrew's death certificate to see details listed there but the ones for John & William show different Christian names for the fathers. So, what was the father's name?
I didn't say that Margaret wasn't born in Scotland but based on my experience, at this oint, it's equally possible she was born in Ireland. Notice that John's death certificate says he was born in Scotland- what's given for country of birth in census records for him?
What COI records in Dunfanaghy have you already checked?
For marriages of John, William and Andrew- what are given for father' name?
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When Andrew died, his wife was still alive. She knew her in-laws, so I would lean towards Andrew's death info being correct. William died as a widower, so I can see how his children might make a mistake in naming William's father. John's 3rd wife would have been the person reporting his death info in 1909, so I can see where mistakes were made there.
I believe that John was born in Ireland as one of his marriage records states this.
CoI records in Dunfanaghy: I believe I have checked everything that I can online. Before the internet days, I wrote a few letters to the minister there.
father's name on marriages:
John's father was John [marriage in Ballymore]
Andrew's father was John [marriage in Dunfanaghy]
William: I have his 1869 wedding in Ballymore. My notes list the source as donegalgenealogy.com/dunfanmarrMcGtoE.htm but I can't find it there now.