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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Devon => Topic started by: percy porter on Friday 21 July 17 01:31 BST (UK)
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The Warkworth Museum (New Zealand) has recently come into possession of a large number of photographs and we are trying to identify them. Many are from England and some of the later ones are from here in New Zealand.
Alas we have no identification on any of them apart from such things as "to aunty losts of love" and the like.
There is a cutting, from an unknown and undated news paper which reads:
"Mrs Ivy Beale of Pentavi, Tavistock Devon, England who with her mother Mrs J V Beale is spending the summer with Dr and Mrs Charles R Vickery. They will leave this week for Dwight Illinois to spend a week and will then join Dr and Mrs Vickery in Denver and from there will tour Yellowstone Park. En-route home the will stop at "The Craggs" at Estes Park and will return with Mr and Mrs Vickery to this city about the middle of September for an indefinite stay"
EstesPark I understand is in Colorado
Some of these photos can be found at the museums Facebook page which you will find here https://www.facebook.com/warkworthanddistrictmuseum/ (https://www.facebook.com/warkworthanddistrictmuseum/)
Any help in this search would be appreciatted
Alan
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Without knowing a date, looking for Mrs Ivy Beale, I found a Marriage June 1930 between Ivy G Marshall and Harold Beale in Plymouth (5b 647).
Then I found a marriage in Dec 1953 between Ivy G Beale and Joseph H Netherton in Plympton (7a 1405).
Re-reading the newspaper clipping, there is a Mrs Ivy Beale and her mother Mrs JV Beale. I would have thought that a married daughter would have a different surname to her mother. It is possible that there is a mistake and she should be Miss Ivy Beale, or the mother's surname is incorrectly written as Beale too ... or, less likely, Beale was Ivy's maiden name and she married a man with the same surname? :-\
There is a birth for an Ivy Gwendoline Marshall in June 1907, which may fit with the above marriage/s.
This family appear to be in Plympton in 1911. Mother is Emily May and father is William (a grocery porter) - so no initials of "JV" to fit with the mother in the newspaper article. There are 9 children in this family so it doesn't look likely that they could have afforded a world trip on grocery porter's wages.
I think I must have been on the wrong track with that idea. :)
There are a few births for Ivy Beales in Devon, but without any idea of dates, and without knowing if Ivy is Miss Beale rather than Mrs Beale, it will be difficult to work out which is "your" Ivy.
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Thanks for that in this particular case there is not much I can add, the cutting included a picture but it reads "lady on right" and because the picture was immediately ABOVE the item I did not post it also the reproduction was not good. There is no indication of a date but in the context of the the item would assume it to be at least a UK paper and most likely a Tavistock one.
Thanks anyway for the information it may come in useful if we find any further information come to hand.
Any genealogist would give there right arm for these pictures.
Regards
Alan
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Maybe the reference to Mrs J V Beale indicates she was married to John V Beale
Deaths Jun 1920
BEALE John V age 52
Tavistock 5b 429
Births Dec 1867
Beale John Vickery
Launceston 5c 23
Marriages Dec 1892
Beale John Vickery
RATTENBURY Bessie
Launceston 5c 45
IVY RATTENBURY BEALE mmn RATTENBURY
1893 Sept Quarter in LAUNCESTON Volume 05C Page 24
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1901 census has them living in Lamerton, Tavistock and still in the area in the next census
John V Beale 33 occ Farmer born Devon
Bessie Beale 32 bn Cornwall
Ivy R Beale 7 bn Cornwall
plus servants
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSW5-72S
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Bessie & Ivy left Southampton 6 June 1924 bound for Quebec/Montreal on board the Antonia
Address Pen-Tavy, Tavistock
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Marriages Sep qtr 1931
Beale Ivy R
Hudson Henry C
Tavistock 5b 1001
Deaths Sep qtr 1965
HUDSON IVY R age 72
Tavistock 7a 731
......
Deaths Jun qtr 1957
BEALE Bessie age 89
Tavistock 7a 676
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From Western Times 26 July 1920 (from British Newspaper archive)
Will of Mr. J. V. Beale, C.C., of Tavistock
Mr. John Vickery Beale. C.C . of Pentavy. Tavistock, a member of the Devon County Council, and the Tavistock Urban Council, who died on March 24th, has left estate of the value of £19,493 2s 2d. The will of January 17th.1920 is proved by Bessie Beale, the widow. Ivy Rattenbury Beale. daughter. Rev. Digory Joseph Rounsfell, of Chesterfield-road. Bristol, and William John Martyn Wivell. of Tavistock. He leaves everything to his wife for life with remainder to his daughter.
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Probate index for Bessie gives same address in Tavistock and mentions daughter Ivy Rattenbury Hudson & Henry Cecil Hudson
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=beale&yearOfDeath=1957&page=2#calendar
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Ivy's probate index gives address as Trevena, Glenville Road, Tavistock and names her husband
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=hudson&yearOfDeath=1965&page=7#calendar
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Excellent work Rosie! :)
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Thanks Ruskie :) I have tried looking for information on Dr and Mrs Charles R Vickery but only have UK subs ;)
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Probate index for Bessie gives same address in Tavistock and mentions daughter Ivy Rattenbury Hudson & Henry Cecil Hudson
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=beale&yearOfDeath=1957&page=2#calendar
I think you may have cracked it here. The Hudson family are among the early settlers here and are still in the Warkworth area one of the descendants is in fact living in a local retirement village.
Watch this space!
Alan
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I think that we need to be looking at why the Beales were staying with the Vickery's. The Hudson connection probably did not come in until after that trip when Ivy Rattenbury Beale married Henry Cecil Hudson in 1931.
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With John's middle name being Vickery it is tempting to think there may be a family connection with the Vickerys in the USA.
I wonder if any shipping records show the Vickerys going to the USA from the UK? :-\ It's not really clear whether the Vickerys resided in the USA or NZ, or who is indefinitely staying in NZ. Ivy obviously didn't. :)
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With John's middle name being Vickery
That went completely over my head, I obviously wasn't paying attention ::) ;D
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With John's middle name being Vickery
That went completely over my head, I obviously wasn't paying attention ::) ;D
;D
Dr Charles Vickery is probably John's Uncle. ;) ;D
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John Vickery Beale b 1867 mmn VICKERY
birth registered Launceston
possible Marriage 1866
Charlotte Vickery and Samuel Beale
Launceston
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Nice work,Rosie! :)
Here's one of the passport applications for Dr. Vickery:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kfj/
Kind of explains the link back to Devon.
Maureen
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Thanks for that link Maureen, we can always rely on you to come up with something special ;D
Rosie
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Just following in your wake...... :D ;)
Maureen
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There is even a passport photo on the next page ;D
If the Vickery's are based in United States we still don't have the link to NZ. I wonder who Bessie & Ivy were visiting ???
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So Charles' father John was born in Devon and went to the USA in 1845.
Charlotte Vickery who married Samuel Beale was born about 1846.
(Their son (possibly only child?) was John Vickery Beale. He married Bessie and they had daur Ivy).
Maybe the connection goes further back? :-\
I wonder who Bessie & Ivy were visiting ???
Do you mean who were they visiting in NZ?
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Sorry Ruskie, yes I meant in NZ
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I've probably overlooked it, but I can't see an obvious Charles Vickery bc 1871 in the US 1880 census with father John (or even without father John) ....
The newspaper article does imply that the Beale's are visiting someone in NZ doesn't it? :-\
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We are assuming it is an article from a NZ newspaper, perhaps it isn't :-\
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We are assuming it is an article from a NZ newspaper, perhaps it isn't :-\
Very good point.
Alan, is there anything identifiable on the newspaper clipping, even on the reverse? Anything which gives a clue as to where it is published?
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Here's the 1880,Ruskie:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MXVD-DBX
I was wondering about the newspaper article as well.
Is there a chance that Bessie and Ivy never went to NZ but somehow some family photos ended up there? Odd.
Maureen
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Thanks Maureen. So John Vickery was born around 1826 in Devon. :-\
The Vickerys seem to have favoured small families. :)
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We are assuming it is an article from a NZ newspaper, perhaps it isn't :-\
Very good point.
Alan, is there anything identifiable on the newspaper clipping, even on the reverse? Anything which gives a clue as to where it is published?
No I am pretty sure that they were resident in the UK, I think that the Beale link is a dead end and am thinking that the Hudson link is what should be followed. I have been in touch with the only "Beale" family living locally, she is the widow and does not think any of the photos come from her husbands side. Local history doesn't throw up any Beales though. Plenty of Hudsons, as mentioned in my last post there are 7 separate Hudson families still in the district and they seem to have come here in the mid 1850s.
It would also appear that the later coloured pictures that went up on the second post are a separate lot from the ones posted first. We have located the owners of those locally, they were lost when they moved house and they apparently donated some furniture to the local Op Shop so it is possible that there are more 'families' involved than we were first advised.
I will check the back of the cutting tomorrow as it is with the pictures at the Museum
Thanks for the work that you have all been doing,
Alan
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This is the clipping from the paper, no indication as to were it is published but am beginning to think it may be an American paper. The quote 'going to Dwight Illinois' if published in a paper from outside the states would have read "Dwight Illinois USA" ??
Here is a copy of the cutting.
Alan
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Thank you Alan,
I would agree with your comment on USA being added if out of that Country. I think we just presumed it was a NZ paper as that was where you were posting from. ;D
Rosie
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I see the De Lorenzi photo studio that took the quoted picture is still in operation.
http://delorenziphotography.com/index.html
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If the Hudson families which you think there may be a connection with came to NZ in the 1850s, there are many years between then and the 1920s, 30s, 40s or whenever this newspaper article appeared.
I think you may be correct in thinking it was from an American newspaper - it presumes some knowledge of American cities. If from a NZ paper it is likely to have just said "America" or "Illinois, America."
Any chance of seeing the photo? It might help with dating. :-\
(I note the article says Miss Ivy Beale, not Mrs Ivy Beale as per your first post)
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Hi All
Dr. Charles R Vickery died on 10 October 1936, so the newspaper article would obviously be before this date.
His death cert states the informant was his wife, Myrtle W Vickery, and that his father was John Vickery born England and his mother was Mary Staley born New York. His date of birth is shown as 15 June 1870 (birth date on passport application was 15 June 1871). He died at South Bend Indiana and was buried in Dwight, Illinois.
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Could it be where they were going when they left England in 1924 :-\
Bessie & Ivy left Southampton 6 June 1924 bound for Quebec/Montreal on board the Antonia
Address Pen-Tavy, Tavistock
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Thank you Alan,
I would agree with your comment on USA being added if out of that Country. I think we just presumed it was a NZ paper as that was where you were posting from. ;D
Rosie
I have got the cutting and have looked on the reverse side for any clues as to its location.
It is all society gossip and covers the arrivals and departures of people who I assume are members of the 'upper class' on there peregrinations!
They have given addresses and whilst the do not give State or Town addresses with a bit of help from Google Earth I have determined that they are all addresses in the state of Indiana.
Our local community news paper has come on board and is running an item in the next edition so we intend to hold on until then and see what new information, if any, comes to hand.
You may have noticed from the latest information on the museums Facebook page the later photos have been identified so it now appears as if the pictures we have been given may have come from more than one source which does add some more mystery!
Again thanks to all the information you have posted it will no doubt assist us in re uniting the pictures with there rightful owners.
Alan
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Here is one of the photos who we believe to be Miss or Mrs Beale, the picture was taken in Tavistock
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This is the newspaper cutting are these two ladies one and the same?
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This is the link to an item in one of the local newspapers published yesterday
https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/94991125/mystery-surrounds-old-photographs (https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/94991125/mystery-surrounds-old-photographs)
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Photo restoration board may be able to date the Tavistock photo for you - they will need front & back of it though
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The photos look a bit 1930s don't they? Could well be the same woman in both - she doesn't look very happy. :)
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The photos look a bit 1930s don't they? Could well be the same woman in both - she doesn't look very happy. :)
Perhaps she was practising for her passport photo ;D
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An update on progress so far.
We have had a number of responses to an article published in the Tavistock Times and this is the link http://www.tavistock-today.co.uk/article.cfm?id=422367&headline=New%20Zealand%20museum%20hoping%20to%20re
We have still not found the 'Kiwi' connection on the Beale photos but do have some good leads originating from the above article. We have had contact from a distant relation of Ivy Beale a cousin of an aunt a few times removed and he is going to do some more family research and see if he can locate a closer ancestor. he is currently on holiday :o(
We have identified the house that is in the photographs and it is the residence of the Beales,
Pen Tavy.
Inquiries among the local Hudson community has so far drawn a blank, their line came to
New Zealand in the early 1800s' so that could well rule them out as the pictures date from around the 30's.
Is it possible that the wedding picture in front of the house could be the Beale-Hudson wedding? The Vickery name could well be a link and we may be chasing the wrong name.
The above contact is probably worth waiting on before proceeding further.
Regards
Alan
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An update on this post.
It now appears that the house in the wedding picture was not in fact Pen Tavi, it is a house a few doors away called Ryal Mount and we have been in touch the the present resident. It appears that the house was most likely occupied by the Baker family, but we can find no reference to a wedding on BMD that matches that wedding location. The house may well have been used as a venue for a non family wedding.
We are still chipping away at this and will post further if anything new comes to light.
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Thank you for the update :)
Rosie
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We have had some more positive information on the photographs, this has come as a result of some steady research done in Tavistock By Alex Mettler who has been quietly beavering away over the past few months.
The wedding is that of Florence Minnie Westlake and Gerald Bousfield Booth and took place at the Congregational church Tavistock in 1919
The groom was a Lieutenant of the Middlesex Regiment and R.A.F and was based at the Armament School in Uxbridge. The bride was a nurse (perhaps explains the nursing pictures), oldest daughter of Samson Treliving Westlake and niece of Elizabeth Jane Baker of Rydal Mount (which would explain why the wedding pictures were taken there).
The family photographs are of Samson Treliving Westlake senior of Falmouth, second wife Louisa and surviving children, taken between 1903 and 1909 when he died.
His youngest daughter Rhoda Mary Westlake emigrated to Australia in 1927, married John Holt Lyon farmer in Pitt Street Methodist Church, Auckland in 1932. They farmed at Inglewood Taranaki where Rhoda died in 1975.
There are two postcards in the collection addressed to miss R Westlake at Rydal Mount.
The search continues
Alan
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Good to have another update Alan. Hopefully one day someone related will find this post on an online search :)
Rosie
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Good to have another update Alan. Hopefully one day someone related will find this post on an online search :)
Rosie
A change of tack now I am afraid.
It would appear as if our NZ connection will not bear fruit.
Rhoda Mary Lyon (Nee Westlake) "died without issue" as they say, so the possibility of passing these pictures on to a family member seem to be more profitable to a UK (Tavistock) connection.
A probate is available on her through Wellington archives and will get that checked out to see if there is a direct descendant of her
I will open another post seeking descendants of the Westlake family.
Alan.
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At last, we have come to a successful conclusion to this search.
We have made contact with the NZ family, the Loyds and as mentioned earlier the trail stops with the death of Rhoda Mary Loyd (Westlake).
The Westlake connection has finally been made and we have located a grandson of Samson Treliving Westlake, a few T's to be dotted and Is to be crossed and we can put this thread to bed.
Thanks to all the contributors big and small I had minimum input merely coordinating the data in put.
Another victory for the team at Rootschat.
ALan
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That is really good news. ;D
Rosie
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Mission Accomplished.
I passed on today the large shopping bag full of photographs to Tony Westlake, Great Grandson of Sampson Treliving Westlake.
Tony has been holidaying in NZ with his wife, Daughter and her fiance. He was flying out to the UK today and we had a very constructive and (for me) a very emotional couple of hours. It has taken over a year to locate and pass on these pictures and it could not have been done without the help of members of this forum and Penelope and Alex in the UK.
Thank you all.
Alan (on behalf of the Warkworth & District Museum)
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I am really pleased that you have found the 'home' for these photo's and that they have returned to the UK. Well done :) I love it when things come together like this.