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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: SueBen31 on Friday 21 July 17 11:59 BST (UK)
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I have spent over a year using all available methods to try and shatter a brick wall. I hope someone can help...
Richard Whiteside my 3 x maternal great grandfather is in the 1841 census living at Samlesbury Hall in Lancashire working as a Cotton Carder. His Church of England baptism record of 1818 in Cockerham, Lancashire shows him being born in Dublin, Ireland on 25.6.1815. All later censuses show him being born in Dublin, Ireland except one which says Born At Sea. There are no records to check for being born at sea in 1815.
If he was born at sea, and I can find no record of Richard's birth in any Internet record in Dublin, then Dublin would be the birth place of his father: John Whiteside. The only date of birth I have for John is approximately 1777 as he is stated to be 64 in the 1841 Census, living with his second wife, mother of Richard, Betty Rimmer. John is a shoe maker.
This birth date for John could be five years out either side, as we know the 1841 census rounded both up and down. His birth place is given as Out of County. I cannot find him in any Irish database or in subsequent English censuses so he must have died before 1851.
But I have found a John Whiteside marrying a first wife in 1798 in Poulton le Fylde, Lancashire, Jane Salthouse, but canot be sure this is the right John Whiteside as there are literally hundreds of them in that area of the country. There are no details of John's parents on this parish record.
I want to spend several weeks in Ireland this summer trying to locate my Irish Roots, if they indeed exist, and wonder if anyone can help me hone in my search as I cannot possibly visit all the parish churches of every denomination in Dublin!!!!
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This birth date for John could be five years out either side, as we know the 1841 census rounded both up and down. His birth place is given as Out of County. I cannot find him in any Irish database or in subsequent English censuses so he must have died before 1851.
Not so! ;D
The instructions to the enumerators were to round down all adult ages (i.e. those 15 and older) to a multiple of 5 years.
However not all the enumerators followed this rule, and some put the actual age.
If John's age is stated to be 64, then his birth year should be 1776/7, depending on when his birthday was.
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If he was born at sea, and I can find no record of Richard's birth in any Internet record in Dublin, then Dublin would be the birth place of his father: John Whiteside.
If Richard was baptised in Lancashire then I wouldn't expect to also find a record of baptism in Ireland. It did happen but was not common.
Why would his father be born in Ireland? The 1841 census indicates that John was not born in Lancashire but he does not have an 'I' beside his name. Betty is recorded as being born in Lancashire.
Where were John and Betty married? Is it from the marriage that you know he was a widower?
Debra :)
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I'm honestly not sure exactly where to start here :-\
Richard Whiteside my 3 x maternal great grandfather is in the 1841 census living at Samlesbury Hall in Lancashire working as a Cotton Carder. His Church of England baptism record of 1818 in Cockerham, Lancashire shows him being born in Dublin, Ireland on 25.6.1815. All later censuses show him being born in Dublin, Ireland except one which says Born At Sea. There are no records to check for being born at sea in 1815.
Civil registration of births started in 1864 and records weren't kept of people travelling between Ireland and England. So, can't see that you will be able to find a 'birth' record.
If he was born at sea, and I can find no record of Richard's birth in any Internet record in Dublin, then Dublin would be the birth place of his father: John Whiteside. The only date of birth I have for John is approximately 1777 as he is stated to be 64 in the 1841 Census, living with his second wife, mother of Richard, Betty Rimmer. John is a shoe maker.
As above, you will not find a birth registration for Richard if he was born in Ireland or 'at sea.' Why do you think this means that his father was born in Dublin? father could have been born absolutely anywhere!
This birth date for John could be five years out either side, as we know the 1841 census rounded both up and down. His birth place is given as Out of County. I cannot find him in any Irish database or in subsequent English censuses so he must have died before 1851.
What 'Irish database' would you expect to find John in? Many church records, especially COI, don't go back that far, not all records are online, etc.
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1851 census. Richard, wife Ellen + children Mary, John, David & Eliza were in Barton-on-Irwell. Richard's parents not with them.
1861 census. Richard, Ellen + children John, David & Eliza were living in Harwood, Bolton. Listed in the household was Betty Whiteside "visitor". Her age was stated as 71, giving an estimated birth year 1790. Her place of birth was Devonshire. I can't make out the town. It looks like "_mouth". Could this Betty be Richard's mother, the Elizabeth on 1841 census? There's discrepancy in ages. If she wasn't his mother, who else could she have been? Aunt? POBs of John & Elizabeth Whiteside on 1841 census might have been recorded/transcribed incorrectly. They were among hundreds at Salmesbury Mills in 1841.
How do you know Elizabeth's surname was Rimmer and that she was John's 2nd wife?
Marriages to consider: 1808 to Betty Rimmer; 1808 to Elizabeth Livesey at Preston; 1813 to Elizabeth Collins at Plymouth, Devon. (Family Search) There may be others.
Have you tried following the John Whiteside & Jane Salthouse marriage through baptisms of possible children and Jane's burial on Lancashire OPC? Were they not around for 1841 census?
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Hello,
Much of what has been written, I agree with.
There is a burial for John Whiteside in January 1842 of Salmesbury Mill. (It is Mill not Hall).
I have been looking for Betty in 1851 with no success but wonder if the place of birth in 1861 should be Plymouth. I read it as 'Plynsworth' :-\
I wonder if John could have been attached to the army or similar which might account for Richard's birth in Ireland.
Heywood
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I notice there's another child Baptised at the same time, Agnes but not listed as born Ireland so the Army theory might be correct. Many wives travelled with their husbands on home postings.
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I agree with Heywood and Jim. One of the Lancashire Militia regiments returned from Ireland in 1815 and disbanded in Lancashire. Militia regiments were similar to the Territorial Army of recent times. They were formed primarily for home defence but could be sent overseas if needed. This being the time of the long wars with Revolutionary and Napoleonic France, they got around a fair bit. There was 1 attempted and 1 successful French invasion of Ireland in the 1790s. Rebellions in Ireland 1798 + an attempted one 1803. Ireland was under Martial Law from early 1790s until I forget when, so plenty of military needed to keep order. A recent RootsChat enquiry concerned a soldier's family in Ireland in the early years of 19thC. Militias conscripted men locally by a form of ballot. If not militia or army, John Whiteside may have joined Navy.
If he was simply an Irish shoemaker who decided to go to England he would , I assume have landed at Liverpool. Why, then, did he not remain in Liverpool and find work there, rather than head north to a less-populated region of the county? IMO he was returning to his family and his birthplace. What Settlement rules would have applied to him? I know that soldiers returning to Ireland at this era were given "Vagrant Passes" allowing them to make their way through to Liverpool to board a boat home. However, if John returned with his regiment he wouldn't have needed a pass.
I looked for Elizabeth in 1851 too. There was one in Manchester. Head of household was John Whiteside, shoemaker, b. 1801. All family were born in Ireland.
Burial of an Agnes Whiteside, aged 1, daughter of a John & Elizabeth, 1819 Preston. There were scores of Whitesides in Preston and hundreds in Lancashire. I had a quick look for a marriage of Agnes, in the hope that mother Elizabeth may have been with her in 1851, but didn't find one that looked likely.
Were these children of Richard & Ellen baptised in Barton-on-Irwell? David Wilfred, John, James and William? Ellen's maiden name was Leigh on baptism records. They were all R.C. baptisms. David (born 1845) & John (b.1843) baptised same day in 1846. James and William baptised same day 1848. Birthdates of both recorded as 1841. Godparents McKenna, McClusky and McAlister.
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Royal Lancashire Militia. Numbers and names of regiments changed over time. The following existed at the time of the wars against Revolutionary France and Napoleon:
Royal Lancashire (1st Regiment) Militia
1st and 2nd Supplementary Militia Regiments. These later became 2nd and 3rd Royal Lancashire Militia Regiments. The Third was retitled The 3rd Royal Lancashire Militia (The Prince Regent's Own) in 1813.
3rd and 4th Supplementary Militia Regiments became 4th and 5th Royal Lancashire Militia Regiments. These last 2 disbanded in 1799 and their men were absorbed in other units.
1st Royal Lancs recruited in Fylde and Lancaster areas. 3rd Royal Lancs in Garstang and Preston areas and Leyland Hundred. (I've only listed recruiting areas within easy reach of Cockerham, where we know John Whiteside was post-war.) Throughout the Napoleonic Wars the Militia provided drafts of officers and men for the Regular Army.
A Supplementary Militia ("The New Militia") was raised during the Napoleonic Wars and disbanded 1816. I'm not sure if this was the same as 1st, 2nd, 3d and 4th Supplementary Regts. mentioned above.
There were also Local Militias and Volunteer Forces. These remained in the county and were for local protection.
3rd Royal Regt was embodied 1798-1802 and again 1803-1816. It served mainly in England. It was in Dublin from 1813 and remained there after peace with France was declared May 1814.After Napoleon's escape from Elba and return to France, so many officers and men volunteered for the Regular Army that the Regt was reduced to less than half-strength. Many of the Lancashire volunteers fought at Waterloo.
I believe, from earlier research, that the 1st Regiment was also stationed in Ireland around 1815.
See:
Handlist 72 Sources for the history of the Militia and volunteer regiments in Lancashire (Lancashire Record Office) This is not an exhaustive list.
Lancashire Infantry Museum- The Duke of Lancaster's Regiment www.lancashireinfantrymuseum.org.uk/the-royal-lancashire-militia
Soldiers, Sailors and Strangers- Baptisms 1800 onwards (web page) From baptisms on this it seems that 1st and 2nd Regiments , Lancashire Militia were in Northumberland around 1799/1800. Some soldiers brought wives from their home county, some married native girls, some had met their wives elsewhere in Britain. All good for the gene-pool! E.g. Son of William Gardiner, a native of "Cockron", which I guess was Cockerham, serving in Lancashire Militia, and wife from Cumberland, was baptised, aged 2 or 3 at South Shields.
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St Andrews Plymouth,
John Whiteside of the 2nd Royal Lancashire Militia married Elizabeth Collins of this parish
28th Dec 1813
Both left their mark
Witnesses
Mary Dyson x
John Gough x
James Boulter x
By banns
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There are a number of Whiteside couples baptising children in Cockerham within 5+/- years 1818.
Richard & Betty
Stephen & Jane
George & Jenny
John & Ellen/Eleanor
John & Betty
Have you checked to see if they are related in some way?
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There is a baptism of John Whiteside in Cockerham 1786 son of Richard Whiteside.
Siblings James, Richard, William, Ellen and Aggy.
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It is possible Elizabeth returned to Dublin to have her son in 1815, while her husband was abroad with the militia or he could have been based there.
It's more likely Elizabeth came from Dublin and John from Lancashire.
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All 3 Royal Lancashire Militia regiments which had been re-embodied earlier in the century when war with France broke out again were in Dublin by 1814. After peace was declared in May 1814 the regiments were garrisoned together in Dublin. After Napoleon escaped from Elba 1000 of them volunteered for the Regular Army and many died at Waterloo. The 3 regiments returned from Ireland to Lancashire January 1816 and were disembodied in April.
Before their posting in Ireland all 3 regiments marched the length & breadth of England. Mainly they seemed to be near the South or North-East coasts. The 1st had 3 stints in Plymouth and 1 in Portsmouth between 1797 and 1809. They sailed from Plymouth to Ireland in 1798 to repel the French invasion but by the time they arrived the French army had surrendered. Many then transferred to the Regulars (20th and 36th Foot so they could have a shot at the French.) The Second Regiment between 1803 and 1816 made it to Chelmsford, Sunderland, Liverpool, Hull, Tiverton (Devon) and Dublin. The Third was mostly in Southern England before their final posting in Ireland. The First was in Scotland prior to Ireland. I wonder if John Whiteside mended his comrades' boots during rest periods?
There are Enrolment Books in Lancashire Archives.
"Enrolment Books of Persons Serving in Militia (By Townships in Subdivisions) Ref. LN13
1809-1816 Ref. LN13/1
1812-1826 LN13/2
See also the website for the Museum of the Manchester Regiment which is run by Tameside Metropolitan Borough www.tameside.gov.uk/museumsgalleries/mom/history/militia
Lots of info on that Museum page but I found trying to differentiate the regiments a bit difficult, especially as they were dis-embodied/re-embodied/amalgamated so often.
The Betty Whiteside with Richard in Bolton in 1851 was born in Devon.
Richard's birthdate was around the same time as the Battle of Waterloo.
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St Andrews Plymouth,
John Whiteside of the 2nd Royal Lancashire Militia married Elizabeth Collins of this parish
28th Dec 1813
To me this makes perfect sense. You do find men of the Regular Army & Militia marrying a long way from their origins because they could be on a home posting from several months to a couple of years, plenty of time to meet a marry.
I researched a similar family a few weeks ago. An Ireland posting with his wife going as well. They had 2 children there & returned to England in 1816 as the Regt. was being disbanded following Waterloo so not an uncommon occurrence.
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Possible marriage of Richard Whiteside. 1772 St Michael, Cockerham, to Agnes Gornall. Both "of this parish".
The baptisms of children of Richard Whiteside found by jc all had their abode as Forton. Son Richard (1783) was baptised at Ellel & Shireshead Chapel which is nearer to Forton than the Parish Church of St. Michael at Cockerham. Other Whiteside Forton residents in 1st decade of 19thC were Joseph & Betty, died 1800 & 1807; William, infant son of Agnes, 1809; and Ellen (63), wife of Richard, buried at St. Helen, Garstang 1810.
Forton was abode of John Whiteside at the time of baptisms of his children Richard and Agnes in 1818. Forton is a small village.
Of the couples listed by jc whose children were baptised in Cockerham parish 1813-1823, abode of John & Ellen was Forton and a baptism was at Shireshead Chapel; Stephen & Jane lived at Thurnham and Ellel; George & Jenny, abode Ellel. All 3 men were tailors. Richard & Betty's abode was probably Forton, transcribed on LOPC as "Horton" for a baptism at Shireshead Chapel in 1813. He was a weaver.
Some of them were still tailoring there in 1841.
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There are a number of Whiteside couples baptising children in Cockerham within 5+/- years 1818.
Richard & Betty
Stephen & Jane
George & Jenny
John & Ellen/Eleanor
John & Betty
Have you checked to see if they are related in some way?
If the OP has a connection to George and Jenny, I am a direct descendant and have a few bits of info. Some of their children ended up migrating to the industrial districts in the north of England to work in the cotton/woollen mills.
Marriage: 14 Oct 1799 St Helen, Garstang, Lancashire, England
George Whiteside - Taylor [a tailor], Cockerham
Jenny Borderstone - (X), Spinster, Garstang
Witness: John Ball; John Cornthwaite
Married by Banns
George's father possibly Robert b 1738 Poulton le Fylde?. Married Sarah Banks 1757?
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Thanks to you all for research and good ideas. I will try to respond with what I have got so far and to your queries.
Services from Fleetwood (on England's Lancashire coast) to Belfast and Derry started running on an occasional basis in the early 19th century. A scheduled service started in 1843 so I think that John Whiteside and his family used this instead of the Liverpool service as Fleetwood is very near Samlesbury.
John my 4 x great grandfather appears in Lancashire before 1798, whether he was born in Ireland or not, when he would have been age 21, when he was recorded as marrying Jane Salthouse, who I think was his first wife, on 9th December 1798. The dates and times fit, plus the fact that St Chads in Poulton le Fylde was also where he married his second wife ten years later and where Richard and Agnes were baptised in 1818. Evidence Lancashire Parish Records Online. They lived there until after Jane died at Highfalong and John was a Husbandman. There were sons: Henry, John, Robert Samuel before Jane dies in 1807. One later died in 1808.
John Whiteside then married Betty Rimmer by Banns legally published by: Thos. Turner Vicar of Poulton on 16th November 1808 at St Chad's, Poulton Le Fylde, Lancashire. He was a widower and she a spinster both living in Marton, Poulton le Fylde. St Chad's features in all these records. John probably needed another wife to look after the remaining three sons.
There is a gap in births in Lancashire Parish Records Online for John and Betty from 1808, which would fit the Militia Theory but on 23rd September 1812 Jenny Whiteside was born at Carleton and baptised on 25th October 1812 at St Chad's, Poulton-le-Fylde, Lancashire, England, which is where John Whiteside married Betty Rimmer four years before. Jenny Whiteside is said to be the natural daughter of Betty Whiteside but John her presumed father is not mentioned. Maybe he was away.
Richard, my ancestor was born in Ireland in 1815 and Agnes in Cockerham in Lancashire in 1818 when they were both christened and John is now said to be a cordwainer, shoemaker. If John was in the militia maybe he learnt the trade there. The theory is that Richard and John and probably Jenny all went over to Ireland to be together.
How do I find out if Richard was in the miltia which maybe would explain why Richard was born in Ireland? Does this also mean he had dual nationality?
NB St Chad's Church is C of E. St Michael's Church in Cockerham is Anglican so this suggests that the Whiteside's were C of E.
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I am puzzled as to how you managed to jump from John Whiteside, a cordwainer living in Cockerham married to a "Betty" from Devon to John Whiteside who was a husbandman, from Poulton le Flyde?
Betty is often used as a shortened affectionate name for Elizabeth.
A cordwainer/shoemaker usually serves an apprenticeship and doubtful John would have gone from husbandman to cordwainer.
Other than the 1841 census which places a John Whiteside, cordwainer, and a Betty Whiteside living with your Richard Whiteside and his family. Do you have proof, they are his parents and the same John that married Jane Rimmer? As you already state, there lots of Whiteside families in Lancashire.
Ps... the marriage in Plymouth between John Whiteside and Elizabeth Collins does say whether either are single or widowed. On reflection having noted the later census returns, I now also believe Elizabeth Collins was born in Devon not Ireland.
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Southern Ireland was part of the United Kingdom at that time, so no dual nationality.
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Richard, my ancestor was born in Ireland in 1815 and Agnes in Cockerham in Lancashire in 1818 when they were both christened
If Richard wasn't christened in Ireland than there won't be any record for him in Ireland.
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Burial:
3 Jan 1842 St Leonard the Less, Samlesbury, Lancashire, England
John Whiteside -
Age: 65
Abode: Samlesbury Mill
Buried by: Fras. Law
Register: Burials 1813 - 1861, Page 126, Entry 1008
Source: LDS Film 1526061
Distance = 15.53 miles
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The family were living at Samlesbury Mill in 1841 - I mentioned the burial in reply 5.
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You did indeed
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You did indeed
Thanks for noticing ;)
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Sue, you said in your last post "St. Chad's, Poulton-le-Fylde .... where Agnes and Richard were baptised in 1818." Agnes and Richard were baptised at St. Michael's, Cockerham, 9th August 1818. Parents were John & Betty. Abode was Forton. Baptismal entry states that Richard was born in Dublin in June 1815. (Lancashire OPC.) Have you confused them with another John & Betty who had children Agnes & Richard? All were common Christian names in that part of Lancashire at the time. Elizabeth/Betty was one of the most common.
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Jenny Whiteside, born 1812, natural daughter of Betty Whiteside is most likely a red herring. There is nothing to suggest that she was in any way connected to any of the John Whitesides around at the time. Her mother, Betty Whiteside was probably a "Singlewoman", a spinster, and not the Betty who was married to a John Whiteside. Baptism entry simply records "Jenny Whiteside, natural daughter of Betty Whiteside, abode Carleton". The term "natural daughter" means that she was illegitimate. Therefore she was not the daughter of John Whiteside & wife Betty, or of any other married couple. They could have belonged to any of the Whiteside families in the area or none. Vicars and Poor Law officials usually knew what was going on in their parish or made it their business to find out. If, as you appear to suggest, that Jenny was the daughter of Betty, wife of John, fathered by another man while Betty's husband was away doing his duty for King & country, that fact would not have gone unrecorded. I came across a similar case around the same time in anther parish near Poulton. The baptism entry read something like " Edward Smith, son of Ann Smith and Peter Brown. Notes: Ann Smith's husband is away serving with the 40th Foot." I researched illegitimate births of the era in that parish. Some single fathers were away in army or navy or worked as sailors or fishermen. Many married on their return. Some of course didn't survive. Others were just "passing through" and may never have come that way again, and may have been unaware that they'd fathered a child. The lists of baptisms I mentioned in a previous post, "Soldiers, Sailors & Strangers" is a snapshot of how things were at the time.
So my advice is to forget Jenny Whiteside, she just muddies the waters further. Jenny/Jane/Jennet was as common as Betty/Elizabeth.
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I had a look at some of the John Whitesides who were in Poulton late 18th/early 19th centuries.
John Whiteside, shoemaker & wife Peggy/Margaret, married 1788, had at least 6 children. They were still living in Poulton in 1841, both aged 70. Some of their family were shoemakers.
Neighbour James Whiteside (60) was also a shoemaker.
John Whiteside, shoemaker & Isabella were also still in Poulton in 1841; he was 65 with a houseful of children.
Nearby John & Isabella were a younger John & Isabella (40 & 35). He was also a shoemaker and his teenage son an apprentice shoemaker.
3 neighbours of the 2 John & Isabella couples were also shoemakers.
So, none of the above John Whitesides could have been the same John Whiteside in an earlier life as the John who was at Salmesbury in 1841. I was trying to trace and eliminate some possible candidates.
John Whiteside who married Jane Salthouse:
Marriage 1798. John was a husbandman (agricultural labourer).
5 children, all baptised at St. Chad, Poulton. Henry 1799, (died 1808); John 1801; Robert 1802; Samuel 1805; Thomas 1807. Abode for all was Highfalong (?). The father's occupation was farmer at baptism of John 1801 and Thomas 1807. ( I forgot to note occupations at other baptisms.)
Burial Nov. 1807, St. Chad, Poulton, Jane Whiteside, aged 42, wife of ----, abode Highfalong, occupation farmer.
John Whitehouse, widower married Betty Rimmer 1808.
(Jenny Whiteside, natural daughter of a Betty Whiteside, abode Carleton, was born Sep. 1812 and baptised at St. Chad in October. I've explained in my previous post why I consider Jenny was not the child of Betty (Rimmer) Whiteside. She should therefore be ruled out of this enquiry IMO.)
I tried to trace the 4 surviving sons of John & Jane Whiteside. There was a marriage of a Samuel 1829. He was a miller, abode Kirkham. Marriage bond gave abode as Singleton (I think, didn't write it down, running out of paper.) His bride was from Poulton. This may have been a different Samuel.
Eldest surviving son of John & Jane, John junior seems to be a farmer at Highfurlong in 1841. He was aged 40 and was a single-person household. In a separate household in same building were 2 teenage boys who were ag. labs. + 2 female servants. Were these all his servants? As he seemed to be running the farm, what has happened to his father, the elder John and his stepmother, Betty, if still alive? One would expect them still to be resident in the farmhouse or a cottage nearby. Most farmers don't give up the reins easily, even when the son & heir is middle-aged.
I couldn't identify Robert b. 1802.
Possible candidate for Thomas was an innkeeper in Wigan in 1841 but he's doubtful.
There was a 1799 burial of Henry Whiteside (80), yeoman, of Highfalong. Seems like John senior took over the farm on Henry's death. Henry and one or both Johns may have made wills. Other records to look at/for are leases and Tithe records.
It seems very unlikely that John Whiteside Senior, a yeoman farmer, would give it up for the life of a shoemaker. I've got both occupations in my tree. My yeoman farmers were comfortably off, well respected in the community, sons became farmers, land agents, corn-dealers/millers, innkeepers; daughters married other farmer, millers, maltsters, businessmen, doctors. Shoemakers learned their trade as boys, often from their father. There was a saying "The shoemaker's children go barefoot" i.e. a shoemaker couldn't afford to spare leather to make shoes for his own family, or worked such long hours he had no time to make them. A few shoemakers with larger workshops in towns where there was a wealthier customer-base were successful.
To conclude. I agree with other posters/researchers. Evidence and logic strongly suggest that John Whiteside, shoemaker, father of Richard, who was at Salmesbury Mills in 1841 and died there 1842, was not the same John Whiteside, husbandman, later farmer, who married Jane Salthouse there in 1798. Betty Rimmer, who married a widowed John Whitehouse in Poulton 1808 was not the same Betty from Devon who married John the shoemaker and gave birth to Richard in 1815 in Dublin.
BTW Rimmer was another locally common surname.
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Many, many thanks to Maiden Stone for all the work they have done on the Whitesides in the last two days.
I am hoping to go to Poulton le Fylde at the beginning of August to visit the churches and areas mentioned so far to see if I can pick up anything further 'on the ground.'
Meanwhile I am going to explore further some of the ideas suggested by Maiden Stone and other researchers. I really appreciate your help with this.
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Maiden Stone has laid it out very well. With such a common name as Whiteside you can only arrive at this by logically working through the various families.
FWIW I believe John of the 2nd. Lancs. Militia married Eliz. Collins while on a posting in Devon. They were there in 1813.
All of the 3 Lancs. Militia Regt's. were in Ireland by 1814 & the 2nd. & 3rd. returned early/mid 1816 for disembodiment following Napoleon's surrender. Just after Richard's birth the Militia's were due for a return home but as Napoleon had escaped from Elba & returned to Paris all disembodiment's were cancelled & an Army raised in preparation for Waterloo. I believe this is why you have Richard's Baptism in Lancs. but born Ireland & Agnes born Lancs 1818.
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There's free access to military records on Anc. this weekend. I looked at "British Army Muster Books and Pay Lists 1812-1817" for my ancestors' cousin who was an officer in 1st Lancashire Militia 1808-1816. I found 5 records under his name 1813-1816, although they can't all be him because 3 related to 3 different regiments. (Jim, do you know if there was much movement between regiments at this period? I've learned from my research of the past 2 days that large numbers of the Lancashire Militia volunteered to join the Regulars, in 1798 and 1814, both times when the militia was stationed in Ireland.) One record (7th Dragoon Guards, formerly 4th Regiment of Horse) read that he was stationed at, or the muster place was at Dundalk. Start of muster was 25th March 1815, end of muster 24th June 1815. The last record containing his name was from Liverpool Depot 24th March 1816. I know he wrote a letter to a friend in Lancashire prior to the regiment's return to Preston, stating his intention to remain in military service. He was Captain William Latham. He and a fellow officer were accomplished artists. Latham and another officer, a surgeon, shared an interest in history. The surgeon friend later co-founded a Scottish antiquarian society. Latham was a frequent visitor to his relatives in the Fylde area of Lancashire and inherited a hall near Poulton from his aunt. ( I know this is a digression, but officers corresponded with people back home at the time, and with each other after leaving the army.)
The only John Whiteside I found in the Muster Books & Pay Lists was in 28th Foot.
A quarter of men on a page I looked at were sick or wounded. Deciphering and making sense of it wasn't easy.
Coincidently a snippet turned up by a member of Lancashire FHHS yesterday:
"13th May 1802. Lord Wilton's Regiment of Lancashire Volunteers returned from Ireland where they had been stationed for 5 years."
That means the regiment would have been posted to Ireland in 1797 to guard against French invasion. It was there during the period of martial law and repression of the Irish, the growth of sectarianism & sectarian violence, armed risings of 1798, the French invasion of the same year, more repression of the Irish people which followed the year of uprisings, and abolition of the Irish Parliament. (Followed by Robert Emmett's attempt at another rising.) If wives accompanied the regiment or men married Irish women quite a few Lancashire people of that vintage may have been born in Ireland. Although in the words of a famous Irishman "Being born in a stable doesn't make a person a horse" (reference to a famous stable in Bethlehem). There were also, no doubt, Irish women left to bring up children fathered by soldiers.
A visit to Lancashire Archives is a must. A whole day there at least. Search the online catalogue beforehand and make a list, including reference letters & numbers in catalogue. Look at their "Handbook 72 Sources for history of Militia and Volunteer Regiments in Lancashire" online (pdf). Documents included on the list which may be worth particular attention are:
Enrolment Books of 1st, 2nd & 3rd Regiments, Royal Lancashire Militia 1809-1816 Ref: LN13/1
Enrolment Books 1812-1826 Ref: LN13/2
Return of Townships in several subdivisions deficient in their quotas of men serving in the 2nd Regiment of the Royal Lancashire Militia December 1810 (Quarter-Sessions Records) Ref:Q/S/P/2603/80 (There will be similar returns for 1st and 3rd Regiments.)
Correspondence 1803-1808 (I didn't note reference number from Handlist 72 for this.)
Check the references in case I've copied any incorrectly.
There may be other relevant documents. Handlist 72 is a few years old and even then it stated it wasn't exhaustive. An email to Lancs. Archives plenty of time beforehand would save time on the day. Be specific about the research topic, in this case a member of 2nd Regiment Royal Lancashire Militia, serving until 1816. Mention the documents I've listed above. Ask if there are any others relevant and how to find them.
There are possibly books of interest as well. Take a look at Lancashire Libraries online catalogue. If you're not a resident you can join as a visitor and then be a "remote" member. Again, an email to library in Preston. Lancashire closed some branch libraries in the past year and reduced opening hours at others, including The Harris Library in Preston. St. Anne's Library, not far from Poulton-le-Fylde has a very good local history room. So does Garstang Library, south of Forton.
The regimental museums would be worth a visit as well. Again , contact beforehand, specify your area of interest, and most importantly verify opening times. Many Lancashire museums also closed recently or are open only for pre-booked educational visits,
Are you a member of Lancashire Family History & Heraldry Society? If not I recommend joining, even if only for a year. There's a members' forum online and some branches have a Facebook page. Surnames Interests & family trees available online to members and surname interests can also go in the quarterly journal.
I have some info about wills and leases but it will have to keep for another day.
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Just to add... first thing I did when MaidenStone mentioned the Militia, was to check the military records on FindMyPast... nothing for him only a different John Whiteside who was a seaman at Waterloo.
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Nov. 8th. 1808 it was announced that William Latham was to be made Lt. in the 1st. Regiment Royal Lancashire Militia.
I can't see any movement between Regiments ( but that doesn't mean it didn't happen).
1814/15 Officers of the Militia were encouraged to recruit men from their Regiments into the regular army with the inducement of a Commission They needed to recruit 80 volunteers. This would have left the 3 Militia Regiments short of men so I would think poaching would have been discouraged.
The Regiments were given the power to recruit volunteers by "beat of drum" meaning they could go out of their normal recruiting area which was just as well as they were all in Ireland.
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Thanks Jim. I noticed in the "Remarks" column against a name in a Muster Book "gone to Armagh recruiting".
A couple of snippets on Lancashire Infantry Museum website illustrate women's presence. Both relate to the 30th Foot and involve ships.
Dec 1805 a convoy taking forces to Germany sailed into a violent storm. The ship "Jenny" ran ashore at Gravelines. Four officers, 115 men, 12 women, 5 children, a baby born during the night and 11 sailors aboard were captured by French forces and spent the next 9 years as POWs.
Jan. 1814 HMS "Queen" was anchored at Falmouth. Aboard was a detachment of men lately arrived from the Iberian Peninsula, along with women, children and French POWS. A violent storm blew up overnight, wrecking the ship with loss of 250 lives including wife and all 5 children of Lieutenant Daniell. :'(
I looked up 30th Foot because it was among the muster rolls I'd perused.
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Maiden Stone has laid it out very well. With such a common name as Whiteside you can only arrive at this by logically working through the various families.
FWIW I believe John of the 2nd. Lancs. Militia married Eliz. Collins while on a posting in Devon. They were there in 1813.
All of the 3 Lancs. Militia Regt's. were in Ireland by 1814 & the 2nd. & 3rd. returned early/mid 1816 for disembodiment following Napoleon's surrender. Just after Richard's birth the Militia's were due for a return home but as Napoleon had escaped from Elba & returned to Paris all disembodiment's were cancelled & an Army raised in preparation for Waterloo. I believe this is why you have Richard's Baptism in Lancs. but born Ireland & Agnes born Lancs 1818.
Sueben31,
I am a bit lost in all the military detail on some other posts but I do understand all the above. However, I just wonder whether Cockerham should be the place to search rather than Poulton le Fylde :-\
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This is very exciting and addictive. I am starting a list of references and leads to follow thanks to researchers on this forum, especially Maiden Stone, and how best to plan my route and book visits for next week when I have time to go on the trail....
I note Cockerham local records are stored at Lancaster Library, so I am starting now with the online LANCAT system at Preston Record Office where I have been before and then I will regroup and book visits to the Regimental Museums, Churches and local records stored all along the Lancashire coast.
I am glad I am fairly local being born in Lancashire and have grandparents who were in Lancashire regiments in both Blackburn and Manchester who were in Lancashire regiments in World War One but venturing into the Napoleonic era and the times before there were censuses is new to me, hence my being very grateful for those tips about other sources and particular information unearthed by this forum about the lives of young men in the militia and their families in the early 1800s.
Thanks again!
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It's interesting to note the role of women in the Regt. Men received a marching allowance, the more miles they marched the more allowance they got. This also extended to the women & children. It almost amounts to the women being considered "on the strength" of the Regt.
They did fulfil useful roles & earned extra money by washing & repairing clothes. They were also used at times as ad hoc nurses.
Married quarters often consisted of just a curtain in the main block.
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For entirely different reasons, thanks for the information Jim.
Some years ago, I was trying to find written accounts of women's lives with the army.
It was because of Rootschat I became interested. A woman ended up in the workhouse with a young child, older child in another and had given birth to and buried children in various places - Gibraltar, Malta etc. She was Irish and had married her husband there. It seemed such a sad life. We could not find the husband at the time.
I couldn't much or anything in written accounts. I might think about it again now. :)
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Sueben31,
I am a bit lost in all the military detail on some other posts but I do understand all the above. However, I just wonder whether Cockerham should be the place to search rather than Poulton le Fylde :-\
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I agree that Sue should extend her search to the parish of Cockerham, with particular focus on the Whiteside family/ families in Forton since we know that John Whiteside was there in 1818. However I think should continue with her Poulton research. For one thing she needs to find out more about John the yeoman farmer of Highfurlong which may eliminate him from further enquiry.
I've dug deeper both into the Whitesides in Forton, many of whom were tailors and those in Poulton who were shoemakers.
Forton Whitesides had links with Wyresdale. (1851 & 61 census, parish registers, will, conveyances, mortgage.)
John Whiteside the elder, Forton resident, POB Wyresdale. Possible baptism 1791 Christ Church, Over Wyresdale, parents William & Eliza. Among possible siblings was Richard baptised 1798.
A Richard with wife Betty was in Forton 1813, baptism of son John. At later baptisms of R & B's children, James 1815 (at Shireshead Chapel) and twins John & Thomas, born 1819, baptised 1821, abode was Wiersdale. All baptisms in St. Michael, Cockerham register.
Joseph Whiteside of Forton had sons Joseph in Wyresdale and William in Goosenargh. Will of Joseph senior may be of interest.
I identified 23 tailors by the name of Whiteside on 1851 census. Of the 10 born late 18th-early 19th centuries, POBs: Forton 1, Nateby 1, Poulton 2, Rawcliffe 5, Wyresdale 1.
1861 census: 8 of those born pre 1820 still alive. POBs: Ellel 1, Forton 1, Nateby 2, Poulton 1, Rawcliffe 1, Wyresdale 2. (George aged 83 changed his birthplace from Rawcliffe in previous census and an extra John had turned up. George had retired to Poulton.)
George had lived in Ellel from at least 1813. 3 of his children are in baptism register of St. Michael Cockerham. George himself may have been baptised at Hambleton 1777, son of Robert. The other 4 tailors from Rawcliffe on 1851 census match those with father Robert, baptised at Hambleton. One of them, Stephen, also spent time at Ellel, children's baptisms in St. Michael's Cockerham register.
There were 4 households of Whiteside shoemakers in Poulton in 1841. 2 lived in adjoining households in 1851. Richard was a master shoemaker employing 4 men (his 3 sons + apprentice). Next door was 85 year-old master shoemaker John and his son.
Of course the John Whiteside, subject of the enquiry may not be connected with any of these. He may have been apprenticed to an unrelated master. He might have landed in Forton because there was a vacancy for a shoemaker.
I need to get out more ::)
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You're doing a grand job :)
Did the army take shoemakers along with them or would they have to be a soldier as well?
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Not sure about shoemakers but the army did have men who were farriers, carpenters, blacksmiths etc.
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2 more Whiteside shoemakers and tailors of possible interest.
1841 census. Hambleton
Richard Whiteside (50) shoemaker + Nancy (50), Mary (80), + 2 children.
1851 census Out Rawcliffe
Richard Whiteside (71) b. Out Rawcliffe, tailor
James (66) b. ditto tailor
Robert (63) b. ditto shoemaker
Peggy (62) b. ditto housekeeper.
These siblings match baptisms of children of Robert & Sarah Whiteside of Rawcliffe, baptised at Hambleton. They come after George and before Stephen, whom I tracked in my last post. Between Peggy and Stephen was Joseph, another tailor. Between them they had it all sewn-up! ;D I couldn't resist that. ;D There may have been 14 siblings, 10 of them boys. They must have been scratching their heads for names because son 9 was Thompson and 10 was Thomas. Unfortunately no John. Moses, Son 4 may have had big hands or poor eyesight; he became an ag. lab instead of a tailor. :D If he'd been called John instead of Moses he might have conformed. :D
Had 2nd thoughts re Richard & Betty whose abode was Forton at baptism of son John 1813. Richard baptised at Wyresdale 1798, whom I had as a putative brother of John, tailor of Forton, was a bit young, if he was baptised as a baby. He may not have been baptised until he was 2 or 3. Richard & Betty's twins were old enough to clamber into the font with a leg-up at their baptism in 1821. ;D One of the 2 R & B marriages I found was almost a decade earlier than birth of son John, but no apparent children in the intervening years. I'm wondering if Richard also went off to war, or he may simply have moved elsewhere. If the earlier marriage was theirs then Richard baptised at Wyresdale 1798 was unlikely to be the same person.
There's a leatherworkers' database. The Whiteside shoemakers belong on it.