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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: originQuest on Friday 21 July 17 19:14 BST (UK)
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Hi there,
I've just received a family members service records from the MOD. I knew from a pension document in the family that he was in 7th Batt, Seaforth Highlanders ... and that this battalion liberated the south of the Netherlands. However, it get's a little complicated ... the service records for my relative shows:
HOME: 17-10-39 - 1-11-39
BEF: 2-11-39 - 20-6-40
HOME: 21-6-40 - 9-5-45
Why wasn't he with his regiment in Holland?
Also, the records I received two days ago from the MOD are a little more confusing. This relative enlisted in North Yorkshire on 17th October 1939 (but another sheet mentioned Blackpool ... can anyone explain why?). He was enlisted initally in the Royal Engineers.
Although the information I received is not always chronological it seems he was posted abroad with the Royal Engineers on 2nd November 1939, but then was transferred to the AMPC on 1st December 1939.
The sheet is NOT CLEAR after here - but he seems to have changed regiment again? 29 Coy is mentioned but no idea what that is?
17th March 1940, he was given 10 days leave in England... and he rejoins his unit on 29th March.
Then: 21st June 1940: Ex BEF To Le Centre Attach ???????? (difficult to make out)
Then no date given but:
Transferred to Seaforth Hghs + posted ITC (why the transfer and what is the ITC?)
He is then posted twice in 1941 (in the UK), and nothing is recorded for 1942 - why is that?
I'll leave it there for now haha. Any input on clarifying any of this would be most appreciated. As usual with genealogy, it is a little complex, isn't it?!
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Always best to post bits of the original as it is often necessary to cross check different pages. For example, 7th Bn Seaforths didn't deploy to Europe until 1944 so one would want to look at the entries that relate to the Home, then BEF then Home pages to make sense of it. On the face of it, his service in 7th Seaforths must have been in UK and it seems he went abroad with the RE in 39 changing to the Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps (the forerunner of the Pioneer Corps) - a not unusual move for a RE soldier. The date of returning to UK in late June 40 looks like he may have been among the AMPC units evacuated from ports in the west of France soon after Dunkirk (they did have a 29 Company but then so did the REs (quick search finds 3) and all sorts of other regiments.
Le Centre probably Leave Centre,
ITC - Infantry training centre
Why no entry in 1942, because nothing happened to him that year no posting, no promotion, no crime, nothing to record.
Why wasn't he with his battalion (presumably you mean 7th Seaforths) - need to look at what unit he was with 1944 onwards, he was in UK anyway from what you have posted.
This is akin to picking up individual pieces of a jigsaw. The record won't make sense until one can see the elements together. Others may be able to do a similar job of looking at bits of what you have posted and making educated guesses as to how it all hangs together. Far better nay essential to post the documents.
maxD
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Max, thank you so much for this. You've given me a lot to think about already; wow, I had no idea.
I'd rather keep this individual's name annonymous, but very eager to learn more about him and his military career.
I've edited down one of the sheets here to the main details, and very eager to learn more.
Thank you again Max. It is obviously so imporant to learn this history!
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Those of us who lived through the war know that our east coast was defended by all manner of obstacles on shore and Sea Forts in the ocean.
Blackpool was where the London civil servants were moved to, plus there was plenty of RAF activity and DeHavilland Aircraft.
You mentioned the Royal Engineers, have a look for bomb disposal units.
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Continued page from previous upload.
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Thank you Rena - I will see what I can find out from the records first and then branch out, as it is a lot of information to take in initially.
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Next page:
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OK best to take this in stages and in outline first, we can come back to detail (where it is possible) later (not least to ensure we get the shopping done!).
You have the dates of where he served and when. In UK first, the British Expeditionary Force (in France) Nov 39 until Jun 40 then UK for the remainder of his service.
Joins the Royal Engineers at 7 Works Labour Company, rank Sapper, 17 Oct 39.
Posted to France 1 Nov 39
Transferred from there 1 Dec 39 to the recently formed Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps specifically to No 29 Company
Granted 10 days UK leave in March 40
Returned to UK 21 June 40 some of the last of the BEF evacuated from France (the main evacuation at Dunkirk finished on 4/5 June).
Went to a Leave centre and transferred from the AMPC to the Seaforth Highlanders but went first for training to one of the Infantry Training Centres.
It seems as if he was posted to another ITC in April 41, perfectly possible to be one of the permanent staff of the centre either in a support or training capacity.
Is promoted to L Cpl some time before Feb 43, date not on these docs.
Feb 43 he goes absent without leave for nearly 3 days and is admonished (slap on wrist and lost 3 days pay)
Goes absent again May 43 for almost 24 hours.
There is then a string of absences up till May 44 when he is court martialled for absence and for wounding someone. Sentenced to 1 year at hard labour in Jun 44. The hard labour element was later commuted so just 1 year detention. Also loses pay again for the absence.
Having served 129 days, his sentence is suspended in Oct 44 and he is released, goes AWOL again in Feb 45 for over 4 days, gets 7 days confined to barracks.
Discharged May 45, the bit of his sentence he didn’t serve was remitted on discharge.
You might like to digest all of that first but at least it tells you why he wasn't in Holland!
maxD
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Thank you for this Max - your filling in of the company details has been fascinating, and I couldn't do that myself.
I'm really eager to see where he was in France during the BEF evacuation.
Also, this relative's uncle was also in Seaforth Highlanders in WW1, dying in November 1914 in France - I wondered if that might be the reason why this relative was also in this regiment? Some family connection perhaps, or mere coincidence?
Thank you for clarifying the details about the court martial and that the sentence of hard labour was reduced etc. Obviously, I'm very interested in hearing more about the circumstances of the assult, and wonder if this relative was photographed on his entry to prison, which seems to be Chatham.
This relative was known as a violent drunk in the family, so few photos of him have survived. The stories of him going AWOL are also present in the family, on one occasion he returned home drunk with his gun and shot a hole in the ceiling.
Thank you Max, this breakdown is very helpful. I wonder though, why this relative didn't join his regiment in Holland, after his release? Also, he very clearly writes his regiment as being the 7th Batt, Seaforth Highlanders on his pension document.
Thank you again for this - the 30 quid for these documents has been worth it.
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The man was Royal Engineers - a corps. Corps member get attached to different regiments where they are needed. This may be what was happening here. He may have been posted to these regiments to help them with whatever skill he had.
My father in law was Royal Engineers and went all over the place with several regiments WW2. He ended up in Italy clearing mines from a harbour.
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Thank you medpat - great to discover the wider context. A great grandfather of mine served in Italy and I'd be interested to see where as I was there with work once. With have to order some more records though.
The other reason why I wanted to know why my relative here wasn't sent to Netherlands with the 7th Batt, Seaforth Highlanders is because I mainly work here.
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Next instalment!
The war diary for 29 Company is at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C163738f. Unfortunately (perhaps understandably) the early period ends in May 1940, no June. I have a summary though which clarifies the period before France. Send me your direct email by PM and I'll send it on.
Family connections did sometimes count but exactly why he went from the AMPC to the Seaforths can only be speculation.
Photographed - if so not kept in army records.
Why not to his battalion - secret is in the reason for discharge (big print at the bottom) Kings Regulations Para 390 (xvi) - "ceasing to fulfil army physical requirements" in other words unfit for further service. His medical history if you have that may have a clue. He was indeed a Seaforth from after Jun 1940.
Medpat - not the case here. His RE unit itself turned into an AMPC unit so all the Sappers became Pioneers but he later became a Seaforth, he was a Sapper for about 1 month!
maxD
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Thank you maxD, just sent you a PM with my email address. Yes, very understandable that the war diary ends in May 1940!
Hmmm as my relative was sent to prison in Chatham, I wonder if they might hold prisoner photographs? Also would that be a military prison? I'm also curious to know the circumstances of the assault - is this likely to have made it the newspapers?
Max thank you so much for this ... I had no idea what "Kings Regulations Para 390 (xvi)" meant so thank you! I don't have his medical history in the military records sent to me ... this is another page mentioning his discharge but not sure if it shows anything relevant?
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This sheet actually spells out what that particular sub paragraph of the Kings Regs meant (390 was the para that listed the many reasons why someone was being discharged).
The prison was the Military Police and Detention Barracks so a War Office prison. As for photographs, I'm afraid I don'y know but even if they did, I doubt very much that they would still exist, I can find no record for the Chatham MP & D Bks (no longer in existence). The incident may well have made the newspapers in the Fort George area. Again, military records of the trial will no longer exist.
Answer to your PM on the way soon.
maxD
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Thank you for clarifying the details about the court martial and that the sentence of hard labour was reduced etc. Obviously, I'm very interested in hearing more about the circumstances of the assult, and wonder if this relative was photographed on his entry to prison, which seems to be Chatham.
This relative was known as a violent drunk in the family, so few photos of him have survived. The stories of him going AWOL are also present in the family, on one occasion he returned home drunk with his gun and shot a hole in the ceiling.
Thank you Max, this breakdown is very helpful. I wonder though, why this relative didn't join his regiment in Holland, after his release?
It seems to me that this man was stressed and suffered what was known as "shell shock" in WWI. Drinking to excess, trying to forget the flashbacks, the nightmares and stop voices in the head, is one of the signs. Today it's known as PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder) and if it's not treated early enough it gets worse. There were far worse cases caused by WWI and some can be seen on youtube filmed by American doctors who tried to understand what the cause was.
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Thank you maxD - learn something new everyday! This is great to get to know the wider context of everything and filling in lots of gaps!
And thank you Rena - it is a very sad story, I agree. I had wanted to get these records to help understand his experiences. The damage carried on long after the war.
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I'm not sure if posting this adds any further information but I thought it a good idea.
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Continued ...
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Continued - these sheets seem to show more detail:
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I think you should be able to take the summary and relate it to chunks of the detail which is adding really only locations in some cases and refining the detail of dates of movement. You'll note that some of the sheets are clearly copies, contrast the entries in different hands with the entries made by the same hand spanning a couple of years.
Of new interest is the medical assessment in March 1940 of A1 and later admissions to hospital and the number of the ITC that I called “other” initially (41 ITC at Camberley Surrey). The references to Xiii List and Y List are among the ways of categorising a soldier who was not with his permanent unit for whatever reason – a purely administrative thing.
What we both had read as Le Centre after France is revealed to be No 4 Centre AMPC not leave centre. This was at Clacton, a training and admin centre for AMPC troops. The record is remarkably clear including unit stamps so when he moved from AMPC to the Seaforths is clearer. One has to understand that putting on the uniform of the Seaforths is not the same as joining a Seaforth battalion. He went to 11 ITC at Fort George, was posted to 41 ITC at Camberley and then back to 11 ITC in the period Jan to Aug 42 including a spell in hospital in Glasgow (it looks like).
He was also appointed Acting Unpaid Lance Corporal in Jan 42, reverts to Private in Aug 42, reappointed in Dec 42 and manages to hang on to the stripe until May 43.
In the broadest of outline, your man worked as a labourer very briefly with the RE, then became, with his unit, a Pioneer doing airfield construction in France, evacuated after Dunkirk, transferred to the infantry and spent the bulk of his time, when not on the run, at Fort George as one of the support soldiers at the ITC. Just before the 7th Battalion went off to war in June 1944 he was court martialled, released and then discharged in May 45.
My suggestion would be to review the sheets against the summary, the 29 Coy summary sent separately and the above and then see if there are specifics you are still not clear on. I would say though that you’ll note that nowhere is there a column for “reason why”. You might like to consider getting the war diaries I have cited. A diary for 10 Group Airfield Construction is cited in the 29 Coy summary.
maxD
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maxD,
Thank you so much for this - it is much appreciated. Invaulable help from yourself, and helps paints a better picture for me. It is a lot to digest; yes, I could see that the latter sheets were copies but as they seemed to mention more detail, I thought it worth sharing.
I'll have a good think about this and hopefully be able to process with a little time.
Again, my sincere thanks!
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You are most welcome. Quick word on 10 Group which I hadn't quite tied down. The 29 Coy summary cites a war diary which is actually a general report on the work of the Pioneers in France covering up to August 1940. 10 Group was the higher level HQ to which 29 Coy and others belonged. It has its own war diary covering Feb to Jun 1940 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C163699 but if you were to get the 29 Coy diary, that would be a better move.
maxD
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Thanks again Max; I'll try both diaries, if I can ... seems as though I might need to make a move to Kew and get looking there.
I've also ordered another relatives war records, so looking forward to receiving them now after seeing what can be gleaned. I'm also eager to order two others, BUT I don't have their regiment details; merely names and dates of birth, and one is a fairly common name sadly!
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Returned to UK 21 June 40 some of the last of the BEF evacuated from France (the main evacuation at Dunkirk finished on 4/5 June).
maxD
I was surprised to see he returned to Britain so late after D Day as I thought the remainder of the armed forces personnel left on the beach had been taken prisoner.
It appears we were still sending ships to France but with a cursory search I didn't discover which ship conveyed the men on 21st June 1940.
I came across a very poignant story of French fishermen ferrying Poles to a couple of British ships that couldn't get into the Saint-Jean-de-Luz harbour due to rough weather on 23rd June, 1940.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/dec/21/polish-fathers-miraculous-wartime-escape
I did find mention of the RE and Highland Regiment on the summary of the BEF on this webpage. It describes a few of the bombardments that our troops suffered. Halfway down this webpage it describes "After Dunkirk" - which also outlines the squabbles betwen COs!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Expeditionary_Force_(World_War_II)#After_Dunkirk
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Rena
As you have seen from the Wiki, our man got away just four days before the evacuation on the west coast finished and four days after the disastrous sinking of the Lancastria. The evacuation from the beaches at Dunkirk of course takes all the headlines but the "after Dunkirk" does show that there were an awful lot of men who faced nearly the same amount of hardship after Dunkirk was all over as they were effectively chased all the way to Cherbourg and to the west coast. These were of course not "left on the beach", they were units well outside the Dunkirk perimeter who made their way to the west.
maxD
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Rena
As you have seen from the Wiki, our man got away just four days before the evacuation on the west coast finished and four days after the disastrous sinking of the Lancastria. The evacuation from the beaches at Dunkirk of course takes all the headlines but the "after Dunkirk" does show that there were an awful lot of men who faced nearly the same amount of hardship after Dunkirk was all over as they were effectively chased all the way to Cherbourg and to the west coast. These were of course not "left on the beach", they were units well outside the Dunkirk perimeter who made their way to the west.
maxD
As the diaries haven't yet been read, I put up that last link (wiki) because I'd spotted mention of the ancestor's units, the RE, etc.posted to the same place/front; their (non)movement after Dunkirk made even more interesting because of the commands and counter commands of competing officers. As I used to watch the TV series filmed by Lt-Gen. Brian Horrocks, it reflected the stories he recounted of other competing COs. during WWII..... it's a wonder we won anything.
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Thank you again - this really is an education for me! As I've mentioned previously, I'm often in the Netherlands for work, specially the south, which the 7th Batt, Seaforth Highlanders liberated, so the fact this relative of mine missed this fascinates me. I might take a drive through France so see where he was stationed - but only after I've read the diaries, of course!
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Hello everyone,I received great information on here about my great grandad in ww1 and now I'm trying to find out about my grandad who served in the Second World War,all I know is his number and regiment,private William stalley 4755402 the green howards,and I think years ago when I was a kid I think a battle of Salerno was mentioned,any help would be great.
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The difference between getting info on WW1 and WW2 is that (most of) the former are on line and almost none of the latter are.
The detailed service record you need is still held by MOD and you have to apply (and pay) for it.
https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records
1st Bn Green Howards did fight at Salerno among many other places. Some reading in this book here while you wait for the record!http://www.theunknownwarriors.co.uk/front-cover-story/4531751932
MaxD
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I didn't know that,thank you for letting me know,I will try to get in touch with them,once again,thank you