RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: LizzieL on Monday 24 July 17 09:04 BST (UK)
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If you have an ancestor who was the victim of a crime or some other injustice, have you ever been tempted to trace the descendants of the perpetrator? Or conversely, if your ancestor was guilty of some crime, have you ever traced the descendants of his / her victims?
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Not quite what you mentioned but I found a great uncle who died with a friend trying to rescue two other friends (girls) and I ended up researching the families of all four of the drowning victims.
And my son went into London and found the memorial to them.
Jan
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Not a victim of crime, but my great uncle George James was killed in a mining accident in 1885. A Daniel Crosthwaite was awarded a certificate for bravery when he climbed down the rope to help him after he was hit. I hope his descendants know about his bravery.
Don't want to meet descendants of the engine driver involved though. I'd probably say the wrong thing.
A couple of news reports.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kfw/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kfx/
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I found out some time ago that my grandmother's first cousin was implicated in a fraud, he and his fellow directors of the company involved were sued by one of the people who had bought shares as a result of "over ambitious" advertising. I recently researched the shareholder's descendants and fortunately they hadn't become destitute by my relative's actions as I feared might have happened.
And I did find some descendants of the victims of a robbery carried out by my great great grandfather's brother's wife's brother. They are fellow Rootschatters!
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=248682.msg5380458#msg5380458
I'm now trying to find what happened to the family of the man, one of my husband's ancestors accidentally ran over and killed with his cart in 1850.
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A while back I spent many hours trawling through the coroners records for Sussex looking for my ancestors. I was disappointed that the same names kept cropping up as part of the jury but never as the accused (or victims).
Then I struck lucky ::) and found the case of my mother's 9xGGF's brother (on her father's side) found guilty of the manslaughter of the wife of the Forgeman he worked for. And then the horrible truth dawned - the poor victim was my mother's 11xGGM on her mother's side.
I don't suppose it ever occurred to them that 300 years later their descendants (my Mum's parents) would be bring the two families together! I think it's safe to say also that neither of my Grandparents knew the story.
During those 300 years there are well documented power struggles between the two families in Mid Sussex (they never moved very far at all) which have been preserved in documents such as Churchwarden's notes and 'donations' to the Church - each vying for greater prominence and the accumulation of land and property!
Liz 8)
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Lincolnshire Archives;
Barton on Humber
Trial date:
3/9/1839
Mary CLAYTON
Stealing a piece of blond and goods the property of David Holdsworth, draper, from his shop
David is my 2nd Great Grandfather.
Poor Woman was 35 and was Transported, sentence 7 years.
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My 4xgt grandfather Mark Brady got into a drunken brawl with two of his shipmates and ended up caving someone's skull in with a handspike. He was in Newgate Prison for something like 19 weeks before going to trial at the Old Bailey. One of the doctors at the trial said that if the victim took care of himself he could go on to make a full recovery. I wasn't interested so much in descendants but I did wonder what happened to the victim and how he fared from that point on. Never did find him, sadly.
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A James Cavanagh took a potshot at my 3x great grandfather, a landowner in Ireland. Notice in the newspaper noted the names of the victim and his attacker, and stated that the bullet had been stopped by the victims clothing and he was unharmed. At the trial, the offender was found guilty of attempted murder and sentenced to a public hanging outside the County Local Jail.
I'd just love to know what it was all about!! Was it a robbery, was my ggggrandfather a bad landlord, or did the offender have a grudge or owe him money! Will pigs ever fly???
It's a shame that there are so many things we will never know about our ancestors, good things and not so good things, and perhaps it's good that we don't know it all! :o
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Well, I've got someone who was a victim of a very notorious serial killer [Louise Peete] and, yes, I did investigate what became of her one known descendant.
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Hunting round a family for a friend who wanted to know about his ancestors, I came upon a sad tale of a feckless ( lovely dialect word, that) lad who murdered one - one only - of his own children. The other people present would probably not have been worth tracing, I'm sure. (And the person who asked me to find out wasn't best pleased to find that in his ancestry)
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i am the descendant of a murder victim and a serial killer, As my great grandma killed my Great Grandad, as well as her lover and 2 other husbands :)
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I've tried, so far unsuccessfully, to trace descendants of James & Ellen Moye, who in 1881 and 1891 were living at Carnforth.
Ellen was the victim of a rape committed by a distant cousin of mine. He was sentenced to 12 years.
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I've a few minor criminals - stealing firewood etc.
My gt x 3 uncle, William Mealing "not having the light of God in his eyes" killed his pregnant fiancee with a cut-throat razor in 1862. He came from the Cotswold village of Rendcomb, and the villagers clubbed together to pay for his defence. He was found innocent on the grounds of insanity and spent the rest of his life in Broadmoor. His victim, Sarah Moss, had a 3 year old daughter by another man, and I've traced her life as best I can.
It was rather like a Midsomer Murder - all the people, William, Sarah, their families, Timothy Tarrant (village blacksmith & constable & godfather to William) were all recorded on 2 pages in the 1861 census.
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I have two ancestors who were murdered, one in 1829 in a drunken brawl with his friend. The friend was acquitted due to a lack of clear evidence. The other in 1904 was poisoned by his housekeeper/mother of his illegitimate children. He had become infirm so she moved her boyfriend in downstairs and poisoned him with arsenic. There was a huge trial, making national papers and the housekeeper was acquitted because the jury thought her boyfriend had instigated the whole affair and he did a runner! It hadn't crossed my mind to trace the descendants of the perpetrators!
I have lots of minor court appearances for nuisances, no dog licence etc
My favourite two concern my ggg grandfather and his mother. His mother was accused of stealing a purse in 1859 and locked up in Lancaster Castle. She was acquitted the next day due to lack of evidence and a few months later took her accuser to court to claim damages :) Her son was accused of starting a riot of over 300 people, pistols fired etc. and aiding the escape of a prisoner in 1849. He was also acquitted but I think lots of people who gave evidence to support him were being 'economical' with the truth! The trial reports are fascinating though, lots of information which confirms various relationships, including the identity of his future wife. The prisoner who escaped was his younger brother who was apprehended a few months later and did his time in Carlisle Prison
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I've tried, so far unsuccessfully, to trace descendants of James & Ellen Moye, who in 1881 and 1891 were living at Carnforth.
Ellen was the victim of a rape committed by a distant cousin of mine. He was sentenced to 12 years.
I think James might be back in Sheffield in 1901, Brightside Bierlow, with a new wife Rebecca, son George born Sheffield and daughter Nellie born Warton Lancashire
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I think James might be back in Sheffield in 1901, Brightside Bierlow, with a new wife Rebecca, son George born Sheffield and daughter Nellie born Warton Lancashire
Yes, that's them.
The family is quite complicated. James married Clara Wiskar in Hull in 1872. William and Ada are their children.
Clara died in 1876, and James, by then in Sheffield, married Ellen Bell, who was the victim of the crime. George Henry and Ellen Hanson are their children.
I believe that the Amanda B Moye, who is with them in 1881, is actually Frances Amanda Bell. George Bell married Ellen Hanson at Lincoln in 1870. Places of birth match up. Frances Amanda married James Gathercole in 1892.
EDIT:
The Ellen Hanson who married George Bell is the same woman who married James Moy[e]. She uses Hanson OR Bell when registering her children. It appears that the Rebecca Charlton who married James in 1896 also has the maiden name Hanson, and is likely to be Ellen's sister.
What a tangle! ;D
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Only if the ancestor or relative was the perpetrator or victim. I may research the other person but not their descendants.
My ancestors brother was sent to Australia in 1837 for maiming someone in a pub in Essex. I have traced the victim but not researched his children or grandchildren. Edward Childs was having a row with his dad and someone else intervened so Eddie maimed him. Ironically Eddie's mother died the previous year so I think there was friction between hi and his dad.
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Frances Amanda married James Gathercole in 1892.
Prompted by this excellent name, I've had another session of research, and found descendants!
Messages sent.
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If you have an ancestor who was the victim of a crime or some other injustice, have you ever been tempted to trace the descendants of the perpetrator? Or conversely, if your ancestor was guilty of some crime, have you ever traced the descendants of his / her victims?
Actually quite close to home ... 1990 my Dad was killed as the result of a mugging. Police knew who they were but couldn't do anything to prove they did it.
Probably for the best that I don't know who they were really.