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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: Retsina on Monday 24 July 17 15:53 BST (UK)
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Could you please check the Births OPR for Beith Ayrshire for my great grandfather William Young. I believe he was born around 1840 give or take 5 years.
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Hi Retsina
Do you have details of his parents' names?
Monica
Added: There is this entry for example https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTV4-XQP
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Sorry I should have mentioned his parents were William and Ann(e) not sure of the spelling. She was Ann King, but unfortunately I don't have the date of their marriage either.
Thanks
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Pre 1855 and the start of official registration in Scotland, you may not find a birth or marriage entry for them. Only about a third of events were recorded in the Old Parish Registers (assuming they belonged to the established Church of Scotland and were presybterian).
I can see this likely entry for young William in 1841:
Ann King 20 Over Sowster
William Young 1
David King 20 shoemaker journeyman
Address: Gateside, Beith
Always the possibility that Ann King and William Young Snr were not married...
What else do you have on William Young Jnr.?
Monica
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There is this entry for 1851 which could be him. In this respect, 'inmate' I think just means resident there (it is not an institution):
Thomas White 84 farmer
William Young 11 inmate b. Beith
Jean King 34 servant b. Dunlop, Ayrshire
Address: Giffen Castle Farm, Beith
Jean King could be a sister to Ann maybe or relative?
Monica
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Thank you so much Monica you have been most helpful. Talk about needles in haystacks! I think you are on the right track though. Ann definitely had a sister Jean and also a brother Robert. I found the family in the 1841 census, with father Robert and 5 siblings, Jean is aged 25, but no mention of Ann, so finding her living with a David King (not sure who he is as they are the same age?), and son William aged 1 is a definite possibility. The question is where is William snr? It is possible that they never married, which would explain why I haven't found a marriage record. The record in the 1851 census with Jean and William living with Thomas White at Giffen Castle Farm would seem to be the best match. In the 1861 census finds William now aged 21 living with Jean and Mary White King aged 79 (not sure how Mary is related to the Kings)? Then I think I have found William again in the 1871 census aged 27 living in Glasgow as a lodger (he did get around!).
There doesn't seem to be any info about Ann King after 1841 - no birth, marriage or death record. I'm assuming that she may have remarried or perhaps died which would explain why William is living with his aunt Jean? What happened to William snr is another mystery as I can't find a birth, marriage or death record for him at all. They were certainly staunch Presbyterian, so maybe there might be a baptism record? I believe there is a "Young family" grave at Beith cemetery, but haven't been able to confirm this. Any further leads you can find would be most useful. Thanks very much.
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Hi Retsina
Just picking up on some of your comments above:
I think you are on the right track though. Ann definitely had a sister Jean and also a brother Robert. I found the family in the 1841 census, with father Robert and 5 siblings, Jean is aged 25, but no mention of Ann...
There are quite a few King families in Beith in those years so without further details, I wouldn't necessarily assume at this time that this is Ann's family at this time without further checks on records.
...but no mention of Ann, so finding her living with a David King (not sure who he is as they are the same age?), and son William aged 1 is a definite possibility.
The 1841 census is the most limited in terms of info. No relationships within the household were given. Also, ages for those over 15 were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest five years. So in that 1841 census entry, Ann and David could be aged between 20-24. Ages for those under 15 were supposed to show at their actual age (or as actual as census ages ever are!).
The 1861 census that you mention, shows Mary White King as Jean King's mother:
Mary White King 79 head b. Beith
Jean King 46 daughter b. Beith (1851 gave Dunlop as her birth place)
William Young 20 boarder wright b. Beith
Address: Giffen, Beith
There is possily some family connection to that 1851 entry and farmer Thomas White.
In the absence of details so far on Ann King, maybe looking for Jean King's death reg might provide details on her parents.
Monica
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With the referece we saw earlier for Jean King from 1851, I wondered if that where the King family was originally from.
There are these two entries for example in Dunlop:
Thomas 1804 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTVF-R4H
Mary 1823 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYQC-3X7 - unclear as to why mother shows as Mary or Jean :-\
These are from Family Search. The free search on Scotlands People also shows:
Ann King - parents Robert King and Mary White.
22/08/1816
Dunlop Ayrshire
In total, on SP, there are 10 entries. These include a Jean in 1806 and two David (first must have died). Birth years range from 1802-1823.
Mary White King looks to have died after 1861 and her death will be on the statutory register. This should let you confirm further details. Possible death entry showing for her in 1865 at the age of 83 in Beith. Possible birth or christening entry for a Mary White to parents Thomas and Jean (Smith) in Beith in 1782. Hopefully Mary's death reg will help with this all.
Monica
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Interesting snippet on Giffen Farm and Thomas White here which includes:
Thomas Craig, grandson of Robert, passed on the feu to Thomas White in 1816, during whose possession the castle met its final fall, inspiring the following indignant poem by James Wilson, the local poet...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barony_and_Castle_of_Giffen
Includes a drawing of the castle and also likely Giffen Farm. Would be good to try to follow up on the family line of Mary White and Thomas White to see if they are siblings.
Monica
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Thanks Monica for this very interesting info about the King family and also the history of Giffen Castle - you have given me lots of reading to do. Thanks to your expert help, the King family are starting to make some sense now and I shall continue to follow the leads you have given me.
Even more exciting would be to find out what happened to William Young Snr. He seems to have gone off the radar completely. He was born in Beith around 1820 and I know both he and his wife Ann (nee King) were deceased by the time their son William married in 1872, as they are shown as deceased on William jnr's marriage certificate. I believe that there is a family grave at Beith cemetery. Do you know any burial sites or people I could contact to check this info? Also could you let me know where the actual OPRs for Scotland are kept? Many thanks for your efforts
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The only source for original images of the OPRs, BMDs and census pages is the official pay to view site www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
It is free to register and search/view search results. You have to use units to view images online. Costs are very reasonable.
Re cemeteries, see Part 2 - Beith here www.ayrshireroots.co.uk/Genealogy/Records/Burial/Burial%20Grounds%20in%20Ayrshire.htm
You could try contacting Bereavement Services for the Council. See www.north-ayrshire.gov.uk/births-marriages-and-deaths/deaths/cemeteries-in-north-ayrshire.aspx
Monica
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Hi Monica
Just one other thing. I've just checked some documents and Ann King is shown as Ann Young on William jnr's marriage cert, so she did marry William at some stage, maybe after William was born in 1840, as she is listed on the 1841 census as Ann King.
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Hard to say isn't it whether parents were married or not at this time. Illegitimate children often disguised this fact and on marriage registrations can seem to show parents as married. On William's marriage cert was the wording for parents William Young and Ann King or was it William Young and Ann Young, M.S. King?
Again, the 1841 census with Ann showing under her maiden name of King is not conclusive. In Scotland married women did not loose their legal right to go by their maiden name. This is one of the reasons why in Scotland married women's maiden names are so prominent and used as they are. In the early census, quite common to see married women in the family household showing with their maiden name. With censuses, this practice died out in the later censuses.
Monica
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Thanks for your help Monica. On William jnr's marriage cert of 1872 Ann is shown as Ann Young M.S. King (deceased). Also, I have found a very interesting revelation on Scottish Indexes, which is a child maintenance claim in the Sheriff's Court for King vs Young dated May 1840. William jnr's birth date is given as 1st November 1839. Although the names and dates seem to match up quite well, I can't really say whether this is a co-incidence (I'm thinking unlikely), but there is no age given for the parents etc or any other details about them which is most frustrating. However, I have since found a birth record for Ann King on 22nd August 1816, parents Robert and Mary Whyte King on Family Search (thanks for your suggestion!). Now I just need to find a marriage cert or birth record for William?
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That was a lucky strike on the Scottish Index to have found sheriff court action ;) Otherwise you would have had the uncertainty as to whether young William's parents actually did or did not marry (regardless of what info he went on to give on his marriage registration in later years).
Monica
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It is quite possible that the minutes of the kirk session might give all the gory details. Digital versions of them can be seen at various archives in Scotland.
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GR2, for someone overseas like myself, are any of those various archives searchable online?
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Hi Retsina,
Mary White (mother of Ann King b1816) was indeed the daughter of Thomas White, Farmer, & Jean Smith [per Mary White's 1865 Death Cert, which also states that Mary died at Giffen, and that she was widow of James King, Farmer].
I've been researching your Ann King's oldest brother, James King b1802, who farmed at Lugtonridge, Beith. You'll find him there in the 1841 & 1851 Census. James married Margaret McIntyre in 1849 and subsequently spent time in Ireland, and Kilmory, Bute where his wife originally came from.
James' 1802 birth record describes him as son of Robert King, Lugton, and Mary White, so it would seem the King family had been farming at Lugtonridge for a long time. Beware though that there were 6 farms all adjacent to each other, 5 of which were all named Lugtonridge, with the 6th farm named High Lugton. The Lugtonridge farms are located in the east of Beith right next to the border with Dunlop parish.
The 1801 Beith Parish Marriage record for Robert King & Mary White describes them as "both in this parish", yet the births/baptisms of all their 10 children (including my James and your Ann) are recorded in Dunlop parish - perhaps because the town and church in Dunlop were physically much closer to Lugtonridge than the Beith church.
The reason I mentioned multiple farms named Lugtonridge is because another of those farms was farmed by a Robert King (c1770-c1852), who married Janet McCulloch in Neilston, Renfrew in 1798 and had multiple children between 1799-1814 (this family also appears in 1841 & 1851 Census at Lugtonridge). This might be a more distant relation but it certainly isn't our Robert King who was having children with Mary White at the same time. In fact because son James King was already Head of the household in 1841 Census, with his mother Mary residing with him, I suspect our Robert had already died by then - although I haven't found his death. [FamilySearch Wiki for Beith indicates that parish Death records only cover the period 1783-1787 so I don't expect to find his death unless a Memorial Inscription turns up].
I hope this is of some help. Don't hesitate to PM me if you want to exchange further info.
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I'm afraid the minutes of the kirk sessions aren't yet accessible more widely.
You have maybe already looked at the Farm Horse Tax records for 1797-98 (available free on-line at scotlandsplaces). It gives the number of liable horses and the tax paid (2/- per animal). If you didn't have a liable horse, your name doesn't appear.
At "Lugtonrigg", Beith:
Matthew Neilson 1 horse 2/-
David Muir 1 horse 2/-
Thomas Wilson 1 horse 2/-
The Kings mentioned in Beith:
James King Shotts 1 horse 2/-
John King Giffen Miln 2 horses 4/-
William King Windyhouse 2 horses 4/-
In only Kings mentioned in the parish of Dunlop:
Robert King Dunlop 2 horses 4/-
John King Ryburn 1 horse 2/-
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Hi John
I'm very grateful to you for your insightful research into the King family history. I had previously picked up on the 1841 Census with Robert and Janet King in Lugtonridge, but discounted it as unrelated to my family. However on the 1851 Census if you look lower down the page, there is a Robert King aged 16 living at Laigh Green Farm as a servant. I wonder if he is Robert and Janet's son? I'm unsure of the proximity of this farm to Lugtonridge if it's possible?
On the 1801 marriage record you found, does it show the date of birth or ages of Robert and Mary? I had no idea they had 10 children! On the 1861 Census Mary is living with her daughter Jean at Giffen Castle Farm with my great grandfather William Young (son of Ann King) aged 21. I would dearly love to find his birth record and also the birth record of his father William who may or may not have married Ann King? Any thoughts you might have would be much appreciated. Thanks so much.
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Incidentally just an interesting piece of history about Giffen farm and Robert King. I wonder if the J. Smith might have been Robert's great great grandmother Jean Smith (White)?
https://canmore.org.uk/site/42183/mains-of-giffen#701714
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Retsina, I've sent you a PM. Regards.
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Correction to my post on 4 Aug 2017 - at the end of the first paragraph I wrote that Mary White "was widow of James King, Farmer". I should have written "was widow of Robert King, Framer". :-[
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I believe the Ann King (1816) mentioned in this post is sister to my relation, James King (1802). This would make their parents, Robert King (1782) and Mary White (1782-Thomas White and Jean Smith) common to both searches. Based on anecdotal handwritten notes from my Grandfather, James King (1884? to 1959), there are two items I am looking to confirm: 1) that Robert King's(1782) parents were Robert King and Mary Latta of Gateside, Beith; and 2) to find out what is meant by my grandfathers statement that the King's family history is closely connected to the MacGregor Clan but involves a "troubled past" that is "best forgotten about."
I am curious about what the troubled past might have been. Any ideas how I could find out?
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Hi James, welcome aboard. Are you resident in the Beith area?
James King b1802 had two sons that I'm aware of, those two sons being:
Robert - born c1852 (married Mary Neilson; had a son James b1886 at Brownsfield, Inchinnan, Renfrew)
James - b1860 (married Margaret Dinah Main: had a son James b1880 in Dalry, Ayr).
So I suppose your grandfather, James b1884? is either James b1880 or James b1886. Do you know which one?
Re your query 1: I don't think Robert King (father of James b1802) was the son of Robert King & Mary Latta of Beith. ScotlandsPeople has that couple having a Robert c1783, then having further children consistantly, with their last child being born in 1803 – which last child they also named Robert – which suggests that their first son Robert c1783 had died. And if he died, he couldn't be the Robert who had children with Mary White until 1823.
I haven't yet been able to identify the parents of the Robert King who married Mary White, with any certainty. But as they named their first son James, and named their second daughter Ann, traditional naming suggests Robert's parents were a James King & Ann. The most likely candidate I've found is the Robert King born 18 Nov 1768, bap 23 Nov 1768, to James King & Ann Fulton in Gree, in the parish of Beith [Beith Parish Record]. Gree (in Beith) is situated just across the Lugton Water from Langton (in Dunlop), where Robert King & Mary White resided when James King b1802 was born. Farming adjacent properties may well have been advantageous for father and son, albeit being separated by a stream.
To complicate matters however, there is another Robert King born 6 Dec 1768, bap 25 Dec 1768, to James King & [no forename] Fulton in Lowgton [presumably Lugton] in the parish of Beith [Dunlop Parish Record]. I wrestled with the possibility that these two records actually relate to the same Robert, but the different birth and baptism dates seem to argue against that - and why would parents have a child baptised twice? Yet the odds must be incredible that two Robert Kings are born within a few weeks of each other in the same parish with fathers both named James King and mothers both named Fulton.
I've not found any connection to the McGregors, but having now been put on notice, I'll certainly bear that connection in mind.
Regards, John
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John
My Grandfather, James King, came to Canada around 1900 at age 14. He got a job on a cattle boat after getting into trouble at home in Saltcoates. That would make his birth year 1886 as you discovered. We did not know his birth place.
He left everything behind and did not mention anything about his origins until 1938 (according to my father's recollections) when he received an inheritance on the death of his mother, Mary (Neilson). This was a big deal as the money built an addition onto the house and they bought a newer secondhand car. My father was the result of his father's second marriage as his first wife had passed away of Influenza in 1917. I have recently connected with a cousin from the first marriage which has sparked this search.
Grandfather James King had two brothers, Matthew and Robert; two sisters, Jane and Margaret. His grandparents were James King and Margaret (McIntyre); and Matthew Neilson and Jean (Andrew). The great-grandparents he names are Robert King and Mary (White). He talked about Lugton farms and Beith.
My father visited his Aunt Maggie in Saltcoates after his release as prisoner of war at the end of WWII. During that visit, my father was shown the family farm at Lugtonrigg (Lugtonridge). That was where the Latta name was mentioned as being a relation; however, as you also found, I can't connect the dots with any certainty either. There was mention of belonging to Free Church (?).
Thanks for your help. Its all interesting.
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Hi James
One of the main hurdles in researching Beith relations is that there aren't many pre-1855 Marriage and Death records for that parish. And there were a number of Kings floating around. If it helps to make sense of them, here is a brief summary of what I've found:
James King & Ann Fulton had 4 children:
Margaret (born 1765 at Gree)
John (born 1767 at Gree, married Mary Cunningham, it seems he took over Gree from his father)
Robert (born 1768 at Gree, married Mary White)
Isobel (born 1770 at Low Gree)
John b1767 & Mary Cunningham had 8 children:
James (born 1810, he might be the James at Burnhouse, Joiner in 1841 Census)
John (born 1812, married Frances Cunningham, he in Dunlop Village in 1841 & 1851 Census)
Robert (born 1814)
Margaret (born 1817)
Andrew (born 1822)
Jean (born 1825, married Archibald Stewart)
William (born 1829)
David (born 1831)
Robert b1768 (possibly) & Mary White had 10 children:
James (born 1802 at Langton, married Margaret McIntyre)
Thomas (born 1804, married Agnes Frame, he inherited Giffen Castle Farm from his uncle Thomas White, died 1860)
Jane (born 1806, spinster, died 1883)
John (born 1809, married Elizabeth Doak, died 1894)
Robert (born 1812)
David (born 1814, died as infant)
Ann (born 1816, mother of William Young)
David (born 1818, went to St Mary's, Perth, Ontario, Canada, married Elizabeth, died there 1877)
Hugh (born 1821)
Mary (born 1823)
James, when your father visited Beith, was he by any chance made aware of any King family headstones? These are a possible source of info which I haven't yet managed to get access to.
Regards
John
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Hi James
I have just picked up your very interesting post about your family connection to James King and thank you for sharing this information. It’s always good to hear from a living family member who can provide first-hand information about their ancestors. As you know, I have been researching the family line of Ann King, James King’s sister, which has proved to be quite a challenge. However, I was very grateful to have connected with John, who has done some extensive research into the King family and he has been very helpful in providing me with some valuable facts that I’ve struggled to find. It’s always very satisfying to be able to complete another strand of the King family, which can be very confusing as there are so many family members with the same name!
I think we can safely say that Robert King b 1768 married Mary Whyte (White) b 1782. I have their marriage date of 14/2/1801 in Beith. Also, I have researched the Whyte family line. Thomas Whyte b 1767 was Mary’s brother who was a farmer at Giffen Castle farm and was married to Mary Montgomery. Jean King, James’ younger sister, brought up Ann King’s son, William Young (my great grandfather) and they lived at Giffen Castle farm with Thomas and Mary Whyte. I found them in the 1851/1861 Census, so there is a very strong connection with the King/Whyte family. I also have the birth record of Ann King b 22/8/1816, daughter of Robert and Mary King.
You mention in your notes that there may be a connection with the Free Church. I have a copy of Jean King’s Will, dated 1883 where she has left the sum of £19 to the Home Mission Fund of the Free Church of Scotland. She also left a sum of money to David King, her brother who emigrated to Canada.
I have also not found in my research any connection to the McGregor Clan.
I was very interested to hear that your grandfather emigrated to Canada at the young age of 14 yrs – how amazing is that? You mention that he was married twice and had 4 children with his second wife. You also mention Matthew Neilson and Jean (Andrew) in the same paragraph. I’m not sure where these members fit into the picture. I would be grateful if you could please clarify this?
Thanks again for your very useful and valuable contribution.