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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: ajbaker on Sunday 31 July 05 20:11 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I recently posted this thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,75259.0.html about reading the MIC of my great uncle, and had some great replies.
I've dug out two photos of the Thomas William Clayton referred to. The first was taken sometime either just before or during WW1. Is there anything anybody can deduce from the picture (perhaps not, as he isn't wearing a cap, and the picture doesn't show much of the badge or stripes on his arms).
The second photo was taken sometime around the outbreak of WW2. Again, is there anything that anybody can tell about who he was serving with at the time, what rank he was at the time, and even perhaps what awards he has. This one might be easier as he is wearing a cap with an insignia on it.
I don't know much about these things and might be talking rubbish, but I also know what great information people on this forum can come up with.
Regards,
Adam
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Hi Adam,
In the second photo it looks as though he is a Captain (three pips), if you could enlarge the cap badge it might be easier to recognise.
Trevor
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trevor,your right about the rank,mack
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adam,the 1st pic,hes a signaller,possibly an instructor,mack
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Thanks Trevor and Mack for your replies.
Right, if he's a captain in these pictures, then it would have been between 1930 and 1940. I have found a reference in the London Gazette in 1930 to him being promoted from a lieutenant to a captain in the Green Howards (terratorial). In late 1939 he was moved as a captain to the Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps. I also have a reference to him being in the Loyal Regiment sometime in the 1930s.
Can anybody identify him as being in any one of these three regiments?
I have tried to enlarge his cap badge but it is not very clear.
Mack, how on earth did you work out that he was a signaller (possibly an instructor) from that photo? His DCM citation from 1917 mentions him being in the Brigade Signal Section of the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment, and his obit from 1940 also mentions him as 'acting as a signals officer for some time'
Cheers,
Adam
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adam,sorry mate,i left out the badge bit,hes in the green howards,mack
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Mack,
Thanks for that info about the Green Howards.
Can you tell me which bit of Thomas' uniform in the first picture gives away the fact that he is a signaller, and possibly an instructor.
Cheers,
Adam
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Adam !
You have to know that Mack has ancient Chinese secrets! surfice to know the man knows his stuff!! ::)
Annie
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adam,the crossed flags are for a signaller,hes a full corporal,so its possible he could be a instructor,but dont take that as fact,but hes definately a signaller,mack
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G,Day all,just a little pecadillo,the subject is 'wearing' Signaller's insignia'he is a Corporal.
Howsomever,(harumph!)they dont look to be stitched onto the sleeve,nor are they in the right position for a Specialist grade,ONE such i.d was worn on the left sleeve,2 inche's above the cuff.Never,never looking as tho' it could be ripped off,as it certainly would have been in any cursory inspection!!
The Captain's photo is all hunky dory,even to the Malacca cane,good on you manmack on the cap badge.
The tunic in the younger photo also look's like Denim,workwear,or tropical,not serge.
At a guess I'd say youv'e got a darn good "Bullpit"photo as sent home by so many young men,self included(!)to keep Mum happy.
For what i'ts worth,Goggy.
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hiya goggy,its tropical gear hes wearing,the insignia is sopposed to look like that,in the tropics,men had to change their uniform daily,anyone with rank insignia would have to unpick the stitching,wash the tunic and sew it back on again,so they introduced a clip on type,where all he has to do is unhook it and clip it on his clean one,mack
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Brilliant! Thanks for your replies. I learn something new every day on this forum.
Goggy and Mack - you're absolutely right about the tropical bit. The first photo was taken in Bangalore, where he was with the Loyal North Lancashires, probably 2nd battalion, and from there he was sent to East Africa. Interesting what you said Mack about the clipon type of rank insignia.
His medal card says he was a lance sergeant before becoming a 2nd lieutenant. Is it likely that he was a corporal before being a lance sergeant? Does his medal card only give details from the beginning of the war or would it include details of regiments and ranks from before the war?
By the way Mack, I've got to say thanks for pointing me in the direction of the Great War Forum in a previous thread - one of the guys on there had one of Thomas Clayton's brother's medals in his collection and we were able to exchange photos and info.
I agree, Annie, about Mack knowing his stuff. It's great that we have such people helping out on Rootschat.
Cheers,
Adam
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adam,hes not really a corporal in the picture,hes a lance sergeant,in the guards,a lance sergeant is part of the ranking structure,but in infantry regts etc,a lance sergeant is a corporal,hes paid the rate of a corporal but hes actually a sergeant waiting for the next vacant sergeant post,he can wear three stripes or two,but he has the privelages of a sgt,eg he can use the sgts mess,but till he attaines the rank of sgt,he will go down on paper [officially] as a cpl,mack
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manmack,ajbaker,t'riffic!!
Sorry to put more block's in the way,my mob was infantry,we served in the Middle East,but a wee bit later!Our classification badges were only worn on the serge uniform's.Tropical badge's of rank were on an arm band.
Only the Regt;name was clipped on,on the epaullette.
Again,good on yer manmack!!
Goggy. ;)
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Hi Goggy & Mack,
Thanks for the info about corporals / lance sergeants / tropical uniforms etc. It's all fascinating stuff.
Mack - I think I understand what you said about the ranking structure concerning corporals / lance sergeants etc. It sounds very complicated.
Cheers,
Adam