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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: RobinRedBreast on Friday 28 July 17 12:32 BST (UK)
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Hello There,
Does anyone please know where exactly this street would be now?
One of my possible ancestor's brothers, John Spooner, who was a Linen Draper had his first child baptised in the parish of Saint Mary Newington Surrey, on the 12th of August 1818.
Her name was Maria Sarah Spooner. The abode was put down in the register as: "Black Prince Row".
Any information would be gratefully accepted. :) ;)
Thank you very much.
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Lockie's Topography of London 1813 reads ...
Black Prince Row, Walworth - a few houses on the left from Elephant & Castle.
Hope this helps.
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Lockie's Topography of London 1813 reads ...
Black Prince Row, Walworth - a few houses on the left from Elephant & Castle.
Hope this helps.
Yes. Thank you very much. :)
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If it is of any interest. Called Bl. Prince Ct. on this map, just to the south of Elephant & Castle http://users.bathspa.ac.uk/greenwood/map_g6o.html
Stan
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If it is of any interest. Called Bl. Prince Ct. on this map, just to the south of Elephant & Castle http://users.bathspa.ac.uk/greenwood/map_g6o.html
Stan
Much obliged, thankyou.
When John Spooner's next Daughter, Agnes, was baptised on the 15th of Dec 1819, in the parish of Christ Church, Surrey, his abode was put down as: "Hatfield Street". Do you have any idea where this could have been please? :) ;)
Thanks.
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Lockie again reads ...
Hatfield Street, Stamford St - 3rd street from Blackfriars Rd.
Stamford St, Blackfriars Road - 2nd on the right from the bridge.
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Hatfield Street, Stamford St on the map at http://users.bathspa.ac.uk/greenwood/map_e6o.html
Stan
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Hatfield Street is still there, now known as Hatfields (London SE1, on a modern map).
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Thanks once again everyone.
This John Spooner was born in Towcester, Northamptonshire, baptised around 1792. He was the son of a John Spooner, and Sarah Kingston. He married Maria Sage at Christchurch, Surrey, on the 29th of October 1817, by Licence. John became a School Master, sometime before 1841: I know this because his Daughter Agnes Spooner, married Henry Allen, at the parish Church of St Giles, Camberwell, on the 7th of February 1841, and John's profession was down as: "School Master". I found John at Camberwell as: "School Master", with a Maria, in the 1841 Census.
His oldest Daughter Maria Sarah, married someone with the surname of Linton, in 1836. Both John Spooner, and Maria Linton were Witnesses to Agnes Spooner's marriage in 1841.
John Spooner, and Maria, were at St Mary Newington, Lambeth, in the 1851 Census.
In the 1871 Census John Spooner: "Retired School Master" is at Camberwell, Lambeth, with his Wife Maria. John Spooner died in 1873, in Camberwell.
I decided to find out about this John Spooner, because I know for a fact that one of my 5x Great Grandad's, William Spooner, was a Linen Draper. And from the: "Old Bailey Online Proceedings" dated Dec 1816, he had a Brother called John who was: "Officiating in his shop for him, on the 6th of November": So from this, it may have been possible that John Spooner could also have been a Linen Draper. William Spooner's shop was at Chiswell Street, Finsbury.
In the 1841 Census, my William Spooner was living at Clerkenwell, and was a: "Commission Agent". I know from this Census, that he was not born in Middlesex. William Spooner died on February the 17th 1845, at 27, Cheapside, London. His age was put down as 58.
Because William Spooner died before the 1851 Census, I decided to look for William Spooner's who were born around the same time as mine: If I found them in that 1851 Census, I could obviously eliminate them as being my William Spooner. I also went on "Freereg" and looked up William Spooner's born around those years, and who also had a Brother called John.
The only one that would fit was William Spooner, baptised 24 Aug 1787, in Towcester. He is also the only one I know, whose Brother became a Linen Draper. The only problem is, the 1871 Census, is the only one that fits well with John's age. He is down as: "Retired School Master". But on all of these Census returns, he is with his Wife Maria. And on all of the other Census returns, his occupation is down as: "School Master". On the 1861 Census, he appears to have been transcribed as: "John Spooneck", or something like that.
Also, John Spooner, baptised 1792, in Towcester, had a Sister called Agnes, baptised in 1793: This was the name of John Spooner's second Daughter.
John's first Daughter was baptised Maria Sarah: Sarah was his Mother's name.
I have also looked on these old maps, to find how close John's abode would have been to William's address in Chiswell Street, Finsbury, just next to Finsbury Square. And the distance is not much more than 1.5 - 2 miles: He only had to go across Blackfriars Bridge, then down a few other streets, on the other side of the water, and he was there. :) ;)
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In the 1841 and 1851 Census returns, this John Spooner was at : Trafalguar Street, St Mary's Newington.
I'm not sure the name of the street where John was in 1861. But it was in St. Mary Newington again, in the parish of St. Peter's.
In the 1871 Census he is at: Havil Street (something place), Camberwell.
If Havil Street is where it is today on the modern map, and also Trafalguar Street, then Havil Street is only 1 mile south from Trafalguar. :) ;)
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The data for John Spooner the schoolmaster in Southwark/Camberwell seems to hang together well enough. But I can’t see that there is any real evidence to connect him to your ancestor William Spooner, the linen draper/commission agent in Clerkenwell.
Looking more closely at your Spooner family in Clerkenwell in 1841, there is a son Henry aged 15+. He appears to have been baptised in 1827 at St Luke’s as Henry Hodgkin Spooner, son of William, linen draper, and Catherine (who is not showing in the 1841). That points to a possible marriage in 1811 in Edenham, Lincolnshire, of William Spooner and Catherine Hodgkin.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NVGQ-WXV
Their son Frederick William, aged 25+ in 1841, was baptised in Edenham in 1814 (FamilySearch).
Have you already searched in Lincolnshire for a baptism for your William Spooner?
ADDED - if you do want to pursue the Spooner family from Towcester, you may want to post on the Northamptonshire board, as I believe there is a RootsChat member with expert knowledge of Towcester.
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Looks like Catherine Spooner died in the last quarter of 1837 in St Luke's, aged 47 (from the GRO index - https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp).
If that age at death is correctly reported, she'd have been about 21 in 1811, which looks encouraging for the marriage in Lincolnshire.
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The data for John Spooner the schoolmaster in Southwark/Camberwell seems to hang together well enough. But I can’t see that there is any real evidence to connect him to your ancestor William Spooner, the linen draper/commission agent in Clerkenwell.
Looking more closely at your Spooner family in Clerkenwell in 1841, there is a son Henry aged 15+. He appears to have been baptised in 1827 at St Luke’s as Henry Hodgkin Spooner, son of William, linen draper, and Catherine (who is not showing in the 1841). That points to a possible marriage in 1811 in Edenham, Lincolnshire, of William Spooner and Catherine Hodgkin.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NVGQ-WXV
Their son Frederick William, aged 25+ in 1841, was baptised in Edenham in 1814 (FamilySearch).
Have you already searched in Lincolnshire for a baptism for your William Spooner?
ADDED - if you do want to pursue the Spooner family from Towcester, you may want to post on the Northamptonshire board, as I believe there is a RootsChat member with expert knowledge of Towcester.
Hello There,
I had already searched for baptisms of William Spooner born in Lincolnshire, around 1787, and found nothing. I knew that he married Catherine Hodgkin, in Edenham in 1811. His abode on the marriage Licence was: "Cateaton Street, in the parish of St Lawrence, London".So my William was already in London by this time.
Also, William's year of birth on the Marriage Licence, in December 1811, when he married Catherine was put down as 1787. This is the same year as the baptism I found for William Spooner, baptised in Towcester. Also, William Spooner died on February the 17th 1845, and his age was put down as 58. This may also give his year of birth as 1787. He could have been born early in that year, and then baptised in Towcester, on August the 24th.
I knew from the 1841 Census, that William Spooner was not born in Middlesex.
I looked up other William Spooner's baptised in other Counties around the same time mine would have been born from baptisms in: Norfolk, Kent, some in Essex, one in Suffolk also. I found them all in the 1851 Census. There were two baptised in London in 1789, and one in Chelsea in 1787: The fact that I knew he was not born in Middlesex, I knew I could dismiss those as a possibility also.
I went onto Freereg. On there I found a baptism for William in Towcester, in 1787, the son of a Sarah, and John. So I went back to the menu and typed in the search part: "John Spooner" 1783 - 1840" for Northamptonshire, and put down to include "family members". It came back with the marriage of John Spooner and Sarah Kingston in 1785, in Towcester, and all the children that they had. Those included William in 1787, and John, baptised in Towcester in 1792.
Those search results that came up also only went up to the burial of George Spooner, in Towcester, in 1796; This would suggest that the family possibly then went elsewhere.
I looked into the parents of this John and William. John Spooner was baptised in 1755, in Towcester, and married Sarah Kingston, in 1785. Sarah Kingston was baptised around 1761 in Towcester. I found a burial for a John Spooner at Clerkenwell, buried in 1829, and his year of birth was put down as 1755. I also found a Sarah buried there, and her years were: 1763 - 1824.
I know for a fact from the "Old Bailey Online Proceedings", that William Spooner had a Brother called John. There is also a very good chance from reading this, that this John was also probably a Linen Draper:
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18161204-41&div=t18161204-41&terms=William_Spooner#highlight
The John Spooner that I found had been a Linen Draper.I know that from the baptisms of his Daughters. The same John Spooner went on to become a School Master. I know that from marriage certificates of his daughters, and from census returns.
He was also living quite near to William Spooner, just across the other side of the Thames. So he would have lived near his brother.
This John Spooner was also born in Towcester, baptised in 1792, and he had a Brother called William according to Freereg. And the year of baptism that I found for William in Towcester is consistent with information I found on William's Marriage Licence, and the Death Certificate.
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Looks like Catherine Spooner died in the last quarter of 1837 in St Luke's, aged 47 (from the GRO index - https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp).
If that age at death is correctly reported, she'd have been about 21 in 1811, which looks encouraging for the marriage in Lincolnshire.
Yes thank you. That is the correct one. She died on the 2nd of October 1837 of: "Dropsy". Died at 85, Chiswell Street, Finsbury. William and Catherine married at Edenham, Lincolnshire, on the 26th of December 1811. :) ;)