RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Sussex => Topic started by: croz on Monday 31 July 17 20:20 BST (UK)
-
Richard Ragless married Mary Penfold in Angmering 3 Sept 1779 - confirmed in parish records. I have, up to now, believed this Mary Penfold, born 1749 in Steyning, Sussex was a daughter of Richard Penfold (Surgeon and Apothecary of Steyning - 1715-1785) and Charity Penfold (nee Marchant), married 4 Augist 1747 in Edburton, Sussex. FamilySearch.org certainly has a record of Mary Penfold christening, daughter of Richard Penfold and Charity in 1749.
Neither Richard nor Charity's will, however (proved in 1785 and 1800 respectively) makes any mention of a daughter Mary. Both list 5 children (2 sons, 3 daughters) and acknowledge a 6th (a daughter) who had predeceased them. I believe ...if I follow the FamilySearch.org information, that they did in fact have 10 children, a son died in infancy but two other daughters, apart from MAry, are unaccounted for. The wills of two of their daughters, however (Anne and Elizabeth), specifically refer to a "late sister" Mary but suggest her married name was Clement or Clements.
I realise there were a large number of Penfolds in this part of Sussex but I wonder if anyone has researched this particular branch and can shed any light on why "Mary" seems to figure in the wills of two sisters, but not in the wills of her parents ?
I am coming to the conclusion that "my" Mary Penfold (5x Great Grandmother) may not be the daughter of Richard the Surgeon and Apothecary..... :-\
-
How do you know Mary's date and place of birth?
-
Information came from a contact via the Fulham and Hammersmith Historical Society who was also researching the Ragless, Penfold and Morland lines and with whom I share a common ancestry.
Sarah Ann Ragless was my g-g-g grandmother and married John Morland (see my other posts on this forum) in 1815. My contact suggested Sarah Ann Ragless' mother was Mary Penfold born 1749, Steyning, Sussex. I have been looking into this Mary Penfold's ancestry ...hence my question and probable confusion !
-
Did Richard and Charity move to Angmering after Mary's baptism? Brides tended to marry in their home parish, so without that move I would have expected Mary to have married in Steyning.
The Steyning Mary would have been at least 30 years old at the time of the Angmering marriage. There were at least three or four Penfold families baptising children in Angmering twenty or so years before, thus supplying other candidates for the marriage. I can't find a Mary to easily fit the bill (although there was one baptised in 1742, so even older than your Steyning Mary) but the records may not be complete.
I think your doubt about the identification of the Steyning Mary with the woman married in Angmering is well-founded. My first move would be to try and find either a burial or marriage in Steyning to account for her.
-
A Mary Penfold married Arnold Wise in Steyning in 1771. He is from Gosport in Hampshire.
-
A Mary Penfold married Arnold Wise in Steyning in 1771. He is from Gosport in Hampshire.
That must be a different Mary - there is no doubt that the Mary Penfold I seek was married to Richard Ragless in Angmering in 1779. What I can't yet work out is her ancestry so I guess I am looking, as Stovepipe suggests, for a Mary Penfold born in Angmering sometime in the 1750-1760 window, who doesn't seem to be the Mary Penfold who was daughter of Richard the apothecary and Charity ...(and who probably married someone called Clement or Clements....not Ragless).
-
I think your doubt about the identification of the Steyning Mary with the woman married in Angmering is well-founded. My first move would be to try and find either a burial or marriage in Steyning to account for her.
I was trying to follow this suggestion.
-
Apologies...I wasn't paying proper attention. I think that the Mary Penfold I was originally following married a Clement or Clements, based on the passing references in Richard the apothecary's other daughters' wills....to their "late sister Mary". The lack of reference to her in her parents' wills is intriguing but probably a puzzle for someone else, as I don't think she is "my" Mary !
-
Richard Ragless married Mary Penfold in Angmering 3 Sept 1779
By banns. Both of the parish.
Witnessed by Henry Penfold and Thos Ragless (the latter was a regular). All signed.
Only two subsequent Mary Ragless burials in Angmering seem to be indexed.
One in 1799, and one in 1823 (age 81). No burial of Richard there?
-
Thanks jonw65 for that extra information. I believe Thos Ragless was Richard's father and was the Parish or Vestry Clerk, a post held for some twenty years from 1764. This would explain why he was a regular marriage witness.
I have found a christening record (albeit only via the FamilySearch site) for a Mary Penfold 1 July 1750 in Shipley, Sussex (although that doesn't necessarily tie in with the practice of marriage in the home parish). She seems to be the daughter of James Penfold (abt 1705) and Rebekah Toley (abt 1710). Intriguingly I believe Richard and Mary Ragless had a daughter named Rebecca ..possibly christened in December 1779 (!) .... and Mary (if this is "the one") had a sister Jane and brother Henry .....also names given to children of the Ragless/Penfold marriage ......I feel "straws" and "clutching" creeping into this research !
I have not been able to find any reliable burial records for either Richard or Mary. I believe Richard may have been born abt 1751 but there is a christening record in Yapton in 1764....
-
Do you have any idea of occupations? My initial thought on seeing the name Penfold was of the traveller families. I may be completely wrong here but if they were then baptisms could be anywhere.
-
Unfortunately no occupation clues for either Richard or Mary - although I am reasonably sure about his father Thomas being Parish Clerk and their son Henry was "Headmaster" (although there seems to have been only one other teacher) of Older's charity school in Angmering- prior to that he was landlord of the Lamb inn, which still has a room named in his honour. His brother John emigrated to Australia in 1838 and there is extensive information about him and his subsequent business activities on the web. I had noticed references to the Penfold traveller families so I guess that is a possibility ...but Mary Penfold 1750, descended from James and Rebekah (with a brother Henry who may have been the marriage witness) is so far my best bet ...As the Angmering village website is a source of much information about the Ragless family, particularly in relation to their occupation of a specific cottage in the village, I am a bit surprised that there is no occupation detail for Richard, son of the Parish Clerk ....
-
the Angmering village website is a source of much information
It certainly is. They have transcribed the marriage witness as Fanny Penfold, but I'm pretty sure it is Henry. None of the signatures are great.
Looking at their transcription of the Angmering marriage register, it's interesting that the only time they have anyone who might be your Mary Ragless (I know there's another one there) witnessing a marriage it's a Penfold one.
17 July 1786, John Wyatt + Sarah Penfold.
The register says he was of Walberton, but they may perhaps be the couple having children in Lyminster from 1787?
From the signature I couldn't really say it's the same Mary, it's not particularly similar, except she's better at writing Mary than her surname! Which may be Radgless, but it's also a faint image on FamilySearch, so I'm not committing myself.
There's a Sarah Wyatt burial indexed at nearby Arundel, 28 June 1804, age 49, and a Sarah Penfold baptized at Angmering, 14 April 1755, daughter of Henry and Sarah, but of course these may all be different people. And we know the online indexes for Sussex are not totally comprehensive.
John
-
I believe Richard and Mary Ragless had a daughter named Rebecca ..possibly christened in December 1779 (!)
Yes, baptized 5 December 1779, just a few months after the marriage. It certainly is interesting, and may tie in with Shipley.
John
-
Following a family death I have found a family tree Pedigree of the Penfold family of Sussex starting with the marriage of Richard Penfold of Angmering and Elizabeth Parsons of Goring in 1570. It is a complete tree up to the mid 1900s. ‘Your’ Mary was indeed the daughter of Richard and Charity, born in 1749 and married in 1775 to John Clemant and they had two sons, John Clemant b 1779 and Thomas Penfold Clemant. Mary had nine siblings. Not sure how we continue this! Only just signed up to reply to your search!!