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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Tracey Joy Kelly on Tuesday 01 August 17 04:52 BST (UK)
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Hi there
Wondering if anyone can help me
I have been told that my great grandfather Naylor Hughes was a traveler.
I was wondering how I can find out more information. where he belonged ??
thank you
Tracey Kelly
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Hi if Naylor Albert Hughes was registered March qtr 1901 Pewsey 5a 137 Mothers maiden name Newman, then his father was James and his Mother Rachel, in 1901 NAILOR is shown as under 3 months b Pewsey, and his father is a Traveller
Census Ref RG13/1946/139/17
Keyboard86
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awesome so I do not mean to be rude but I do not know much about travelers.. did they live in groups?? can I find out what or where they lived
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He appears to be living in a house so probably not a traveller (Romany/Gipsy) as you are thinking.
Son Brother William was born in Aldershot c1886 so I wonder if father James was in the Army at some point.
Marriages June qtr 1880
Hughes James
Newman Rachel
Pewsey 5a 239
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Hi do you know who/when he was married, as his death looks to be 1936 Marlbourough aged 35?
Keyboard86
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Hi do you know who/when he was married, as his death looks to be 1936 Marlbourough aged 35?
Keyboard86
Not married according to this post - just had family ;)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=556029.
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no he didn't get married my great grandmother had already been married and hadn't gotten divorced. he had children with Ida Bissaker (nee Harnes) one of them was my grandfather James.
when Naylor passed away the church stepped in. they sent James to Australia. since idas married name was still bissaker they changed james name to James bissaker, I never met my grandfather but from what I have been told he didn't know anything about Naylor
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are all gypsies romany?
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Before assuming that Naylor was a gipsy you really need to know exactly what his occupation was.
In 1901 his father James was a Traveller, the census enumerator has written alongside C.T which would mean Commercial Traveller (A travelling salesman) which is different from a Gipsy. If you look at the 1911 entry for the family you will be able to see what the accommodation is that they are living in and how many floors it covers.
As you have been advised on your other post his mother Rachel was a Hawker - she probably took her 'wares' into town to sell on the street.
I would suggest that you Google Gipsy/Romany/Hawker as that is all I would do to answer your query ;D
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thank you I have had some family tell me they are from Irish Travelers. they looked after horses or sold them.
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You will just have to try tracking them back to see if it is true. ;D
As I mentioned his mother was probably a street trader, I believe that the 1911 may indicate what she sold. They certainly do not appear to be 'living in caravans and moving round the country on the later census.
My gt grandfather was according to census a Hawker - he lived in a house all of his life but sold greengroceries from a horse & cart.
Have you traced James Hughes & his wife's family back before the 1901 census, do you have their marriage certificate if so what information does that give.
Naylors death certificate may give an occupation for him.
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Naylor's brother William's birth registration
HUGHES, WILLIAM mmn NEWMAN
1883 Sept Quarter in FARNHAM Volume 02A Page 126
This would give occupation of father James at this time.
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thank you I have had some family tell me they are from Irish Travelers. they looked after horses or sold them.
Hi just revisiting this thread, in 1911 Rachel is indeed a Hawker, but her sons all have the occupation of Agricultural Labourers.
Rachel is easy to locate 1861/71 with parents Thomas/Louisa, it is from the marriage to James Hughes that things go awry eg they do not seem to appear in 1881 and 1891 census, also another son Edward b c 1883 only appears in 1911?
James I have failed to locate from birth, other than the 1901 census, he appears to have died September qtr 1903 Pewsey aged 46
The couple had 4 girls born between 1888 and 1893 they all died prior to their first birthday.
Keyboard86
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oh my goodness that is awful to lose so many babies. poor Rachel Is there a way that I can find out what her father Thomas did for a living
at this time I am not able to afford certificates.
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Hi Thomas Newman is also an Agricultural Labourer.
It is possibly the early Hughes side of the family that may have been "Travellers" to not find any sign of the family in 1881/91 is common!
Keyboard86
PS Rachel had lost 9 children by 1911
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9 babies oh my gosh that poor woman. is there any way I can get a list of them?
also when they have agricultural labourers could they have been going from farm to farm helping with farm labour or would they actually own their farm?
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Hi in all cases, an Ag Lab never owned the farm he worked on, and yes they went from farm to farm offering their services.
Keyboard86
PS Rachel died 1928 Pewsey aged 67, when you have sufficient funds to purchase the marriage cerificate of James Hughes to Rachel Newman £9:25 from the GRO it could give you/us possibly new leads?!
The girls were:-
Renney 1888
Ellen 1889
Maria 1891
Matilda 1893
And one son, Thomas 1892
All born/died Pewsey
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9 babies oh my gosh that poor woman. is there any way I can get a list of them?
Although Keyboard has replied, for future reference you can search the GRO index using surname & mothers maiden name to find them before 1916, it also allows you to search deaths giving the ages when the died
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
After 1912 you can search freebmd for the same information
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
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also when they have agricultural labourers could they have been going from farm to farm helping with farm labour or would they actually own their farm?
As Keyboard says they could be going from farm to farm in the Pewsey area or maybe just working for one farmer. I would imagine that it depended on the season and what needed doing. You could browse the census for Pewsey in the area they were living and you could see possible Farmers who employed them. They would probably have walked to work. If you look at an online map you will see that even today Pewsey is surrounded by fields.
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Naylor's brother William's birth registration
HUGHES, WILLIAM mmn NEWMAN
1883 Sept Quarter in FARNHAM Volume 02A Page 126
This would give occupation of father James at this time.
OK back with a query, the "son" Edward b c 1883 only appearing in 1911 states b Lurgeshall which I believe is Devizes registration district, cannot locate a suitable on GRO Index other than an Edward William Hughes mmn Brown?
Anyone any ideas, as due to non appearance of the family in 1881/91 cannot work him out☺
Keyboard86
EDIT LURGASHALL is West Sussex?
Or is it LUDGERSHALL Wilts?
Ludgershall is Devizes, so think this one
The Edward William Hughes looks to be the son of John Hughes who married an Ellen Brown 1874 Devizes
Only checked 1881 post marriage family are mmn Brown
Census ref RG11/2044/54/17
He is William in 1891.
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Ludgershall is also an Army base. :)
There are Army records for a few James Hughes so difficult to eliminate. I think the only way to crack that is to get one of those two birth certificates unless he has was serving when he married
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:) Well Edward has no birth registration b c 1883 whereas William has b 1883 Aldershot, William in 1911 b 1885?
Keyboard
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Hi again, there is a Service record for James b 1885 Pewsey attestation 2nd September 1903 Service No: 5451 Duke of Edingburgh ( Wiltshire Regiment), bit of a naughty boy, he states his parent/s are Rachel and has 5 Brothers Edward, William, (Older) Frederick, Walter, Naylor ( 1 younger)
Keyboard86
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Hi again, William Hughes b c 1884 Aldershot residence Pewsey also has a " Burnt Document" Service record, he was attested 1903 with the Royal Berkshire Regiment 10th Labour Battalion Service No: 94808 with break in service he rejoined and in 1916 was made up to Sergeant, his Next of Kin was "Wife" Southcott, Pewsey
Keyboard86
EDIT Possibly"Wife" Agnes M G Neate marriage Sept qtr 1913 Pewsey
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:) Well Edward has no birth registration b c 1883 whereas William has b 1883 Aldershot, William in 1911 b 1885?
Keyboard
OK for possibly my benefit I note that James on his Service record names Edward as the eldest brother, other than being included by Rachel as a son in 1911, no sign of him re BMD etc?
Keyboard86
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There is this one I can't see a marriage for Hughes/Barney ::)
Births Dec qtr 1880
HUGHES Edward mmn Barney Pewsey 5a 157
Ludgershall came under Pewsey registration district wef 1880