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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: lesleyhannah on Friday 04 August 17 15:00 BST (UK)
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My son in law's g-g-grandmother Annie Burnam Shaw had an illegitimate son, born in the workhouse. Later Annie married Richard Johnson in Salford in 1882. The 1891 census shows Annie and Richard and 2 children (aged 13 and 11, both born Salford) and gives Richard's occupation as travelling showman. I have since been trying to find out more about Richard, as the traveller connection intrigues me. However, I have had no success.
On the marriage cert Richard aged 27 is shown as a widower, and a hawker. His father Richard (deceased) is also a hawker. I'd like to find anything about Richard's previous marriage, or even the births of the children on the census (also called Annie and Richard). If I could find Richard living with his parents that would be a bonus. My head is spinning with the reams of Richard Johnsons I've printed out but of course if he's a traveller he could be found anywhere. Incidentally my son in law's DNA came back from ancestry with a surprisingly large amount of Irish ancestry, so that may be a clue.
Hopefully someone reading this may know something about the travelling Johnsons - or just a new pair of eyes may do the trick.Thanks in advance.
Lesley
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Hi Lesley,
On the 1891 what place of birth is given for Richard?
It would help if you could post the details on the 1891 please.
JJ
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his birthplace is shown as Manchester, though as many of our ancestors couldn't read I've found some of the information which has been added by someone else may be unreliable.
The ref is RG12/3220
Thanks for your replyJJ
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RG12; Piece: 3220; Folio: 116; Page: 46.
Haha, that's brilliant.
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There's a newspaper article from 1891 re him being assaulted. I'll send you a PM.
Address at the time is given as 14 welbeck st, hulme.
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This is worth consideration
1861 2952/84/21
Thornley Brow, Manchester
Richard Johnson 6 yrs b Manchester with parents
Richard Johnson 50 yrs Hawker b Yorkshire
Mary Johnson 42 yrs
plus children
And
Thomas Chapman son in law Showman.
Heywood
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Class: RG10; Piece: 4046; Folio: 152; Page: 14
This could be richard johnson the elder - hawker of vegetables - in the workhouse in 1871.
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This is worth consideration
1861 2952/84/21
Thornley Brow, Manchester
Richard Johnson 6 yrs b Manchester with parents
Richard Johnson 50 yrs Hawker b Yorkshire
Mary Johnson 42 yrs
plus children
And
Thomas Chapman son in law Showman.
Heywood
The children in this family seem to have mmn Matthews
One possible marriage
Birmingham St Martin Warwickshire
13th August 1837
Richard Johnson Traveller, father Thomas Johnson Fruitier
Mary Matthews Traveller, father Alexander Matthews Tailor
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Marriage St Matthews Manchester
May 1875
Richard Johnson 20 yrs Traveller father Richard - confectioner
Elizabeth Ely 20 yrs
Both living 12 Robert Street
GRO Index
Richard Johnson mmn Ely March 1878 but I can't see Annie.
Still nothing to confirm.
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Possible births of children of Richard Johnson household at Thornley Brow on 1861 census. all with maiden name Matthews.
Mary Ann 1839 Sub district London Rd.
Margaret 1840 Market St.
Emma 1841 Hulme
Mary Ann 1844 Market St.
Martha 1847 Market St.
Ann 1850 Holcombe
Elizabeth 1852 Market St.
Richard 1854 Market St.
Alexander 1857 Market St.
I'm doubtful about Ann, 1850, unless she was born when her mother was hawking there or at a local fair. Apart from that, the family seems to have stayed in Manchester for 20 years.
Neighbours on 1861 census was Robert Johnson (28), a tailor, b. Sligo + Mary Ann Johnson, who lodged at no. 15. Other Irish neighbours were hawkers and tailors.
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Marriage of Margaret Johnson to Thomas Chapman at St. Peter, Bolton, 1859.
Thomas Chapman, Traveller, Great Bolton, father, Henry Chapman, Traveller,
Margaret Chapman, minor, spinster, Great Bolton, father, Richard Johnson, Fruiter.
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1871 census. A Richard Johnson born about 1852 was a prisoner in Salford.
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1871 census. A Richard Johnson born about 1852 was a prisoner in Salford.
I can't see that one - is there an occupation shown?
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Found him, sorry - he is in Cheetham and is a labourer.
The age is out though but it is on other censuses.
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Richard, senior + Mary + baby Margaret were at Thornley Brow in 1841. Richard was a hawker. There were at least 2 other Johnson households there. One was next to Richard. Thomas Johnson (60), fish dealer + Ann. Richard, Thomas + Ann not born in county. A lot of Irish neighbours.
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These Johnsons were really bad with censuses.
Anyway, I had a look at that Thomas chapman, son-in-law in 1861.
He was actually a Londoner.
I think this is prob the marriage.
Marriage: 26 Jan 1859 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Thomas Chapman - (X), full, Traveller, Bachelor, Great Bolton
Margaret Johnson - minor, Spinster, Great Bolton
Groom's Father: Henry Chapman, Traveller
Bride's Father: Richard Johnson, Fruiter
Witness: John Dutton; Joseph Westby, (X)
1851 -Class: HO107; Piece: 2503; Folio: 475; Page: 5
1861 -Class: RG 9; Piece: 2952; Folio: 84; Page: 21
1881 -Class: RG11; Piece: 3231; Folio: 25; Page: 44
By 1881 he's "proprietor of exhibition".
There was a chapman's circus. I'm starting to think this might be them.
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Not sure about the circus but 1881 looks like a gathering for a fairground- very interesting occupations and you can imagine the excitement brought to the town.
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My son in law's g-g-grandmother Annie Burnam Shaw had an illegitimate son, born in the workhouse. Later Annie married Richard Johnson in Salford in 1882. The 1891 census shows Annie and Richard and 2 children (aged 13 and 11, both born Salford) and gives Richard's occupation as travelling showman. I have since been trying to find out more about Richard, as the traveller connection intrigues me. However, I have had no success.
On the marriage cert Richard aged 27 is shown as a widower, and a hawker. His father Richard (deceased) is also a hawker. I'd like to find anything about Richard's previous marriage, or even the births of the children on the census (also called Annie and Richard). If I could find Richard living with his parents that would be a bonus. My head is spinning with the reams of Richard Johnsons I've printed out but of course if he's a traveller he could be found anywhere. Incidentally my son in law's DNA came back from ancestry with a surprisingly large amount of Irish ancestry, so that may be a clue.
Hopefully someone reading this may know something about the travelling Johnsons - or just a new pair of eyes may do the trick.Thanks in advance.
Lesley
Hi Lesley,
Where was the illegitimate son in 1891?
If we have the right family, the child Richard may be the child of Richard snr and Elizabeth Ely.
I wonder if child Annie might be Annie snr's daughter?
Do you have Annie Burnham Shaw in later censuses or her death?
Heywood
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Bash lad, I suspect a few errors with them in 1861 census. Margaret was recorded with surname Johnson when it should have been Chapman. POB of Thomas down as Manchester like most of his in-laws. There were some possible children of Thomas & Margaret Chapman born in Manchester 1860-9.
I was also trying to track T's movements, with the idea that Richard could have been with him.
Child of Richard's 1st marriage ? Richard Johnson, mmn Ely, 1878.
A Richard Johnson aged 13 died in Manchester 1891.
Was Annie Richard's daughter or Annie's ? Births of several Ann/ie Shaws with MMN Shaw in late 1870s & early 80s. What was name of child born in workhouse?
Came across this burial at Rawtenstall cemetery 1882. Elizabeth Johnson (38), abode workhouse, occupation hawker.
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More than a few errors in all of the censuses.
I don't think any of the ages have matched on any of them so far.
Nevertheless I'm sure it's the right family.
According to the 1881
Thomas Chapman 45 Whitechapel, mid
Margaret Chapman 40 Manchester, Lancs.
Ellen Chapman 20 Manchester, Lancs.
Henry Chapman 18 Manchester, Lancs.
Thomas Chapman 18 Manchester, Lancs.
David Chapman 16 Manchester, Lancs.
Mary Chapman 14 Birkenhead, Lancs.
Margaret Chapman 12 Manchester, Lancs.
Norah Chapman 8 Ireland
(That 1871 was probably wrong, norah was born in ireland, so I'm going to scrub that off.)
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1891 - Piece: 4414, Folio: 38, Page Number: 40.
The now widowed, showwoman, margaret chapman/johnson, plus children.
It's possible Richard Johnsn was with them in 1871 - in Ireland.
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Yes, I agree that Thomas & Margaret Chapman on 1881 census in Lincolnshire are correct family. The children whose births in Manchester with MMN of Johnson I found were all present & correct in 1881. Henry & Thomas were twins.
1891 census Glamorgan. Norah's POB was Killanney or Killarney.
1901 Thomas, Henry and David were still show people, in Yorkshire, Lancashire (Heywood) and Durham respectively. Another David Chapman, showman, b. Middlesex, was in Blackpool.
In 1881 they were surrounded by photographers.
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According to 1891 census young Annie was 11, born in Salford around 1880. If her age was correct she was born before marriage of Richard & Annie. Richard senior's age was a decade out on that census.
1901 census: Was Richard senior lodging in Sheffield with Arthur Snape, a traveller? I noticed the name Snape before as neighbours of one of the Chapman families. (I have Snapes but mine stayed in the same place for hundreds of years.)
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Thank you all. I spent most of yesterday evening trying to create a draft tree from your info and hoping to decide which certificates if any would help to prove the connections. This morning I have found more replies so I'm hoping the choice will be easier. Any more contributions will be more than welcome and I'll let you know if any certificates arrive. Lesley
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in 1891 George Arthur Shaw (b in the workhouse) is living with his mother's sister Caroline Scott and her husband in Salford.
6 Feb 1892 • he married Emily Crofts in Salford, Lancashire -
Soon afterwards he moved to London where Emily came from - and apparently never mentioned his traveller roots - family believed they had always lived in east end.
I've ordered a couple of certificates as a result of the suggestions here. Am still working through the references. Thank you all very much
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Was Annie from a travelling family or did she just marry into one.
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You've all nailed my problems - when people's dates of birth vary so widely you start to wonder whether they really are the right family - and I'd begun to doubt myself when Annie's daughter seems to have been born before the alleged parents were married - and when the alleged mother had been living elsewhere.
\my head is spinning but I'm keeping all this thread, and am trying to work through it. So far I haven't found Annie's death, but hope to get there eventually.
Maidenstone, where did you get the info about the Chapman's circus in Blackpool please?
You've all been great - thanks again
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Was Annie from a travelling family or did she just marry into one.
I'm totally new to the world of travellers but I'm told the Shaws were/are a well-known traveller family - the occupations in the censuses back this up, as do some of the marriages. As I say, this fact had never been mentioned to my son-in-law. We don't know whether this was deliberate on George Arthur's part, however he seems to have been passed between relatives as a child so maybe he knew very little about his background. It's all very interesting - and a great change from the framework knitters and ag labs in my own tree!
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I'm not sure about the shaws being travellers.
Barnabas Shaw, c1813-1856 (son of Thomas). Warehouseman
Mary
Margaret Elizabeth SHAW c1834-
George Alfred SHAW c1838 -
Joshua William SHAW 1838-1857
Caroline Matilda SHAW c1846-
Ann burman SHAW 1849
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Class: HO107; Piece: 2220; Folio: 906; Page: 21 - the shaw's in 1851 - good luck with it though - it's one of the water damaged ones.
All basically born Huddersfield area and then living in Manchester from 1851 onwards.
*no doubt more - these are just the ones i stumbled on.
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in 1891 George Arthur Shaw (b in the workhouse) is living with his mother's sister Caroline Scott and her husband in Salford.
6 Feb 1892 • he married Emily Crofts in Salford, Lancashire -
Soon afterwards he moved to London where Emily came from - and apparently never mentioned his traveller roots - family believed they had always lived in east end.
I've ordered a couple of certificates as a result of the suggestions here. Am still working through the references. Thank you all very much
I'm glad you said this because I wasn''t certain I had the right family.
That George arthur shaw, as you say, 1881 with mother, 1891 with aunt. 1901 & 1911 in london.
Pity can't seem to find any of them in 1871.
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Where were Richard and Annie in 1881, the year before their marriage? Do either have children with them? Young Richard (1878) should have been somewhere.
A few snippets I noticed when following Thomas & Margaret Chapman & children which may give pointers to Richard's families.
1861 census: Their eldest child, baby Ellen was not with the Johnson household.
1881 census Lincolnshire: Show van in Blue Lion Yard. 5 of 7 children born Manchester. 1 b. Birkenhead, Cheshire, and youngest, Norah, b. Ireland. Norah is an Irish name. It may have been a short form of another name. A quick search of Irish civil births brought up no matches.
1891 census Glamorgan: Margaret Chapman, widow + children all show- people. Norah's POB Killanney or Killarney, Ireland. There's a place-name Killaney in Co. Down. There was a David Chapman resident there on 1901 & 1911 Irish census. (Thomas & Margaret Chapman had a son David.)
1901 census: All 3 Chapman sons were showmen. Henry was back in Lancashire, with a wife b. Worcestershire. Thomas was in Yorkshire + wife b. Middlesex. Their 3 children were born Lancs. & Yorks. Thomas was proprietor of an "Aunt Sally" booth. David + Cambridgeshire-born wife were in County Durham, with a travelling shooting gallery. Another David Chapman of similar age was a showman in Blackpool. This 2nd David Chapman had POB Middlesex + Canadian wife.
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1871 Annie working as seamstress in Hulme Class: RG10/4001/34 p 7
George Arthur living with relatives 1871 Hulme described as orphan nephew.
Daughter Caroline's marriage cert calls her father Barnabas a traveller. Barnabas's death certificate says he was a salesman "woollen goods" (including the quotation marks). Oddly, on George Arthur's marriage certificate he gives his father as William, a traveller. This is the only reference to his father I can find. Quite a few of the family are described as hawkers.
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Thanks for that information maidenstone. When I finally get the Chapman marriage certificate it will be invaluable.
I'm in a meltdown at the moment. My son had sent me a link to his raw dna results. I couldn't make head nor tail of them and to cut a long story short I ended up deleting software that needs a code to reinstall - and I haven't got it. Am going to abandon computer for today, and hope one of my sons can sort it out. Fortunately the internet still works!
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Maidenstone, where did you get the info about the Chapman's circus in Blackpool please?
Chapman's Circus was mentioned by BashLad on page 2, not by me. The David Chapman who was in Blackpool in 1901 was a "showman Exhib." and was a worker (employed by someone else?) according to census. No mention of circus. He may have been working at an amusement booth. Younger son Eric, 3, b. Blackpool. Birth Eric Chapman 1898, Blackpool, mmn. Balshaw. I'd speculated that with the name, POB + occupation it was worth mentioning him, in case he was a relative of Thomas Chapman. Also I thought the Canadian wife was interesting. Did they meet in Britain, Canada or elsewhere? Where did they marry? This was the era of Buffalo Bill's Wild West shows.
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So Annie was with her son George Arthur in 1881. No little Annie?
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Just a random thought about names. Richard Johnson's younger brother was Alexander. That imo, is a name with Scottish connotations. Again, possible Irish connections - Ulster-Scots.
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Thanks for that information maidenstone. When I finally get the Chapman marriage certificate it will be invaluable.
Do you mean marriage certificate of Thomas Chapman & Margaret Johnson for marriage at St. Peter, Bolton, 1859? It won't give any more information than is available free on wonderful Lancashire OPC.
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Well, the certificates came - Maiden stone you were right about the information not adding to anything given here (I've never used the Lancashire link as none of my ancestors came from Lancs) but we've now proved the traveller credentials which leaves son in law bemused as to why none of this was ever mentioned by his mum or granddad who he was very close to.
Richard Johnson's 1st marriage to Elizabeth Ely lasted a very short time - he was a widower when he married Annie Burnham Shaw. I'd like to find Richard in 1881 and will now look for Elizabeth's death. And wonder what happened to Richard's children? Should keep me busy for the foreseeable future.
We've decided son in law's obsession with campervans is all in the genes
Thank you all again for this help.
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Well, the certificates came - Maiden stone you were right about the information not adding to anything given here (I've never used the Lancashire link as none of my ancestors came from Lancs) but we've now proved the traveller credentials which leaves son in law bemused as to why none of this was ever mentioned by his mum or granddad who he was very close to.
Richard Johnson's 1st marriage to Elizabeth Ely lasted a very short time - he was a widower when he married Annie Burnham Shaw. I'd like to find Richard in 1881 and will now look for Elizabeth's death. And wonder what happened to Richard's children? Should keep me busy for the foreseeable future.
We've decided son in law's obsession with campervans is all in the genes
Thank you all again for this help.
Thanks to LANOPC and Lancashire BMD and the foresight of most of my ancestors over the past 200 years to have been born, married or died in Lancashire, the only marriage certificates I've ordered have been for weddings in Catholic churches. I get them from Preston with the proper signatures on them. I should make a donation to LANOPC & BMD in lieu of the money I've saved on certificates.
LANOPC has more than parish registers. There are some cemetery records and a few workhouse and school admissions. Last week I discovered some electoral registers on it. Quite a few hawkers passed through workhouses. There was a hawker called Elizabeth Johnson died 1882.
Re-reading the posts, I noticed I'd made a mistake with the Johnson-Chapman marriage, and assigned Margaret the name Johnson.
Given the number of photographers who were near the Chapman family on 1881 census, I would expect there to have been photos taken of the shows and the caravans. There may have been photographic booths at the shows so that punters could have their pictures taken. Your camper-van son-in-law might be interested in pics of 19thC camper-vans.
I had a look at Irish records, mainly census. There were more Johnsons than I expected.
Although Norah was born in Ireland, her parents may not have registered her birth there. It might have been registered on British mainland, or not at all. Norah could be short for Honora/Honoria/Hanora/ia.
Have you found baptisms of any children? They might have been anywhere, at any time.