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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: teach3r on Saturday 05 August 17 23:19 BST (UK)
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Hello and thank you for any help that can be given.
Francis Thomas Croxford was the brother of my great grandmother and seems to have served during WW1 in the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry as a Sergeant (26628) before being transferred to the 175th Labour Corps (93118). Before both of these his service record shows that he served in the Royal Berkshire Regiment (20320), although this isn't shown on the medal rolls (Meritous service, British and victory medals).
After previous help from MaxD and Jim1 concerning my great grandfather, Henry Eustace, I am keen to read the War Diaries covering Francis's service. I would be grateful if someone could tell me how to work out the which battalion of the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry he would have served in. Also, how to find the diary for the 175th. Then finally the Royal Berks diary to look for.
Thanks to the support of rootschat members, especially MaxD and Jim1 I am on an interesting and steep learning curve and appreciate the time others are taking to advise me and point me in the right direction. I am assuming that as Francis was transferred there may be an entry showing how he was possibly injured.
Thank you,
Kind regards,
Nic
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Hi,
If I am reading his service record correctly your man was attached to the 3rd Battalion Somerset Light Infantry from 27-3-16 until he was transferred to the Labour Corps 156 Company on 9th May 1917. He was appointed unpaid L/Cpl on 28-4-16; appointed paid L/Cpl on 7-5-16; appointed paid acting Cpl on 8-8-16 and promoted Cpl on 14-8-16.
He was promoted to Sergeant in the Labour Corps on 14-5-17.
jds1949
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Thank you jds1949 for your detailed response.
For some reason I hadn't seen the final pages of the service record with all the information that you mentioned, although I am still confused as to the labour corps company as some sections state 175 and others 156 Company.
Any additional help is greatly appreciated.
Nic
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Nic
Most of the story is on the Statement of Services sheet, read it in conjunction with the dates of service which were Home (UK) 2 3 16 to 6 5 16 then BEF (France) 7 5 16 t0 7 9 19 (discharge paper).
He attests locally in the Berkshire Regiment in Dec 1915 but is not mobilized until Mar 1916 when he is allocated to the 12th DCLI but is attached (which is not the same as posted) to the 3rd Somerset LI, a training unit in Taunton. Not very well recorded is that he then went to France on 7 May 1916 with 12th DCLI (not 3rd SLI in France as they didn't leave UK).
He is compulsorily (it looks like) transferred to the Labour Corps in May 1917, first to 156 Company and later Mar 1919 to 175 Company with whom he finishes his service. He has been a sergeant since May 1917. He is awarded a Meritorious Service Medal 28 Dec 1918 for "valuable services".
His Berkshire number doesn't appear on the medal record because he didn't serve with them overseas.
More later.
maxD
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THANK YOU MaxD and jds 1949,
Maybe with a bit more practice I will get better! I have just ordered the 12th DCLI diaries to see if anything turns up there. Will keep you posted!
Maybe it will show why he was transferred out of DCLI?
Regards,
Nic
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Easy answer. 12 Battalion DCLI was a labour battalion. In May 1917 it morphed wholesale into 156 and 157 Companies Labour Corps which itself had been formed in Jan that year. The Army Council Instruction (ACI) mentioned in his docs was the authority for that to happen, he had no choice.
maxD
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Thanks MaxD; again, I am in awe of your knowledge.
I am about a 5th of the way through the 12th DCLI diary which on the whole is very dry describing building and repairing roads every day. Interesting to note that they were at the Somme and the diaries mention continued bombardments up to July 1st and then on July 1st that lorries were needed for the wounded. Other than that, the battle isn't mentioned!
Nic
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It's more a question of knowing where to look for the answer! I'd recommend to you http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/ as a start point for all questions WW1. Have a look at the DCLI and then the Labour Corps.
The battles tend not to be mentioned much because their tasks were not fighting in the front line (although they were given a modicum of training for that and when need were pressed into service in the line).
maxD
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Thanks MaxD,
I have finished reading the 12th DCLI war diary which as suggested on the LLT website finished at the end of March 1917. In the end it was very interesting showing how close to the front line they were and how important they were to keeping things moving.
I am now keen to read what happened next with my great grandmother's brother, however, I have not been able to find a war diary when searching the national archives. Does this mean that there wasn't one?
Regards,
Nic
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Nic
I knew the question was on its way but the grass needed cutting!
The Labour Corps companies are notoriously difficult to research (see the Labour Corps page on LLT). They were grouped into Groups (what else!) and, although there may have been the odd exception, did not keep individual diaries. The Group headquarters kept diaries, this list shows how many there were in France/Flanders.. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_aq=labour%20group&_ep=France&_cr=WO&_dss=range&_ro=any&_p=1900&_st=adv They haven't been digitised and don't go beyond the autumn of 1917.
However, mirabile dictu, having just looked at some of the group diaries I obtained for another project recently, I find I have one that includes 156 Company. I'll send you my direct email by PM, reply to that and I'll send it on. Hovever (again) you will I'm afraid be disappointed, the diary records the comings and goings of the Group CO and little else. I haven't yet checked around for 175 Company which he joined in March 19.
More in due course, PM on the way.
maxD
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For the record good news and bad news.
Bad news. The Group diary I referred to in my last post did not include 156 Coy, I had mis-read 155.
Good news. Thanks again to a real expert elsewhere who suggested a bit of lateral thinking, I can at least say that 175 Company were working in the vicinity of Roisel on 21 March 1918 (the start of the German Operation Michael offensive) because at least two members of the company were decorated for gallantry for their actions on that day. The citation for one, Cpl Gough, is here https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31534/supplement/11121
The search continues.
maxD
Nic Direct email later.
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Good afternoon,
Following up the excellent help that I received last year, I have attached a summary of Francis and would be grateful if someone could look over the military aspects to see if I have collated them correctly.
Many thanks,
Nic
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Herewith:
Under Regiments
He wasn’t promoted Serjeant until he was in the Labour Corps. If you put that against 156 Company then you should put his other promotions against the relevant units or alternatively, as you have them later, leave the ranks off this part.
Insert Company between 156th and Labour and between 175th and Labour
Under Service history
Although not recorded it seems clear from the dates that he enlisted under the Derby Scheme in Dec 1915, makes clear he was a volunteer.
2-27 March he was at the Depot of the Berkshire Regiment at Reading doing his basic training.
Delete “possibly compulsorily”. (That had been my first thought but later corrected – 12 Bn DCLI disbanded to become part of the Labour Corps so he had to go somewhere!):
Transferred to 156th Company Labour Corps. (Company numbers come first)
Re-word: 12th Battalion DCLI became 156 and 157 Companies of the Labour Corps and so ceased to exist from May 1917. The Labour Corps itself had been formed in January 1917.
12/18 156th Company Labour Corps(Company numbers come first)
16 Sep 18 - the Boulogne reference is leave to UK via Boulogne
15 Mar 1919 – he was posted to 175 from 156 – the “possibly compulsorily” is redundant
12 8 19 leave was to UK
He was discharged in UK at Crystal Palace on 12 Sep 19, the 7 Sep 19 Maubeuge document was the beginning of the admin process in France.
You don't record his employment (as Roadman) anywhere
Medical category B2 - http://epsomandewellhistoryexplorer.org.uk/MedicalCategories.html
MaxD
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Hi MaxD - as you always, you are an absolute star.
Thank you for highlighting the corrections. I have amended as suggested and reattached. I would be grateful for your input into the content of the other attached extract please (i.e. the location)
Regards,
Nic
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Furlough (leave) to UK
Review the update later.
MaxD
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Perfection approaches!
You've lost his service number from the DCLI in the regiments section
The place he had his medical was Maubeuge (France).
Inconsistency with company numbers 156th (etc) and 156 - suggest the latter
Great Effort!
MaxD