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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: Newfloridian on Monday 07 August 17 09:13 BST (UK)
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More curiosity from the Moakes / Gaskin stable. I came across this entry in the census for 1881 (RG11/3314 23 14)
Samuel Gascoigne (36); Ellen (mother widow) (66); Hermon (34); Sarah (32); George (27); James (24). and then:
Thirza niece aged 9 years
Cinderella Moakes Orphan aged 4 years.
Enoch Gaskin (who died in 1872) married Ellen Moakes in 1836. All their children named on this census were still unmarried. The question is: who were the mothers of Thirza (entered as Gaskin in the Birth Indexes for JFM 1873) and Cinderella Moakes (AMJ 1877). No mothers' maiden names therefore I assume both illegitimate.
Interesting too, Enoch and Ellen had had a daughter they named Cinderella in 1839 who died in 1863. She had been married to Henry Moakes - the son of George Moakes and Hannah Beardsmore
Round and round we go ... !!
Alan
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Hello,
1891 2651/11/15
1901 3136/27/45
Thirza is daughter to Sarah Renshaw
Heywood
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In 1891 Sinderella Moaks (sic) niece, living with Joseph and Sarah Kenshaw and Thirza Gascoigne, daughter.
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I think that 1901 census tells only part of the truth!
This is the same Thirza I asked about in the initial post but the make up of this household is also fascinating - and adds yet more questions:
Henry Ball Head (30)
Thirza Ball Wife (28)
Joseph Gascoyne Son (4)
Eliza Ball Dau (2)
Wilfred Ball Son (3 mo)
Sarah Renshaw M-in-law Widow (52)
Cinderella Moakes Boarder (24)
Henry and Thirza were married in Mansfield in 1897
Joseph Gascoigne was born illegitimate in AMJ 1897 7b Mansfield
I accept that Thirza's mother's name was Sarah but Renshaw was her married name and Thirza was illegitimate. The registered would have had her as Thirza Renshaw as would the 1881 census. She is also listed in 1881 as niece - so is there an incidence of a Sarah Gaskin /Gascoigne marrying a Mr Renshaw who then died before 1901?
And - add another twist to this saga, bearing in mind that all the occupants of the 1901 census were born in South Normanton, Henry Ball's mother's maiden name is given as Bacon. As far as I can see from the marriage lists there were three Ball / Bacon marriages in 1851 and 1852 - and I have several links between the Ball , Gaskin and Renshaw families with the Bacons.
Alan
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I don't quite understand what you mean but as I understand it, Sarah Gascoigne declares herself Mrs Renshaw - she is Joseph's wife in 1891, a widow in 1901 and is in 1911 indexes as Sarah Renshaw.
I cannot see a marriage for the couple however but they were together at least in 1891.
If I recall there are two Joseph Renshaw born within a year of each other and they died at a similar time too.
Thirza marries and becomes Mrs Ball. As she is presumably the daughter of Sarah G, this makes Sarah Renshaw (assumed name perhaps) mother in law.
Cinderella seems to have changed her name to Renshaw too according to 1911 indexes.
The birth certificates of the two girls would show their mothers' names.
Heywood
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In 1881, Thirza is shown as niece to Samuel Gascoigne.
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Just leaves me to find the lineage of Henry Ball. Looking at the 1881 census, the most likely candidate appears to be the son of (unmarried) Eliza Ball. If that is the case, Eliza was the daughter of William Ball and Maria Gaskin who married in 1845
Alan
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Are you now happy re Thirza?
Re Cinderella, there is a death for Hannah Moakes aged 21 in 1881, I think it was - any relation?
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I am, many thanks
My main interest is the search for marriages between cousins. Rather hangstrung by the lack of ease of access to PRs but I'm sure they are as common in this area as they are in my other area of interest in the Welland Valley!
Alan
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Re: Hannah Moakes - not found one yet with a birth year of around 1860. There was a Hannah Moakes born about 1867 who was the daughter of Matthew Moakes and Sophia Gaskin.
I'll keep looking!
Alan
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Now that could be interesting:
there is a Hannah MOKES born Mansfield 7b 55 JFM 1859 in the registers with a mother's maiden name of Gascoigne
... and guess what: there is a baptism transcription for Hannah Mokes dated December 8th 1858, parents: Henry Mokes and Cinderella (who was of course the daughter of Enoch Gaskin and Ellen Moakes).
Alan
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1871 3467/55/5
Shows Hannah Mokes (Moakes) 12 yrs as granddaughter to George and Hannah Mokes.
She might be nothing to do with your quest but I noticed a death - perhaps this is Hannah.
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Yes, they are Henry's parents
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So you might have solved it?
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I guess the unanswered question is how and whether the Moakes / Moakes , Gaskin / Gascoigne , Ball (and other families) are related by common ancestors - by this I mean mid to late 18th century. In this thread alone I have come across too many marriages for these to represent totally isolated occurrences between unrelated families. Pamela Sharpe, in her book "A Village of Considerable Extent" records that not only was illegitimacy very high but in 1788 South Normanton had 121 houses and a population of 588. Another correspondent of mine from a University in America reports:
In a population of between three and five hundred people, after six generations or so there are only third cousins or closer to marry. During most of human history, people have lived in small, isolated communities of about that size, and have in fact probably been closer to the genetic equivalent of first cousins, because of their multiple consanguinity. In nineteenth-century rural England, for instance, the radius of the average isolate, or pool of potential spouses, was about five miles, which was the distance a man could comfortably walk twice on his day off, when he went courting- his roaming area by daylight.
I'll keep on digging!
Alan
Are you linked to the Haywoods of this village?
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No, nothing to do with the village.
There does seem to be a lot of intermarriage from what you say and at that time it was perhaps very common especially in rural communities. I know it was in one of my family areas in rural Ireland.
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Have you found anything else on Thriza ! Would be interested to find out more about her thanks
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I haven't bought the birth certificate but the new GRO Online Index lists the following:
GASKIN, Thirza MANSFIELD 07B page 69 1873 M Quarter.
Mother's maiden name blank
This is in association with the GRO's trial of sending pdf records rather than the full certificate at a cost of £6
Alan
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South Normanton in the late 1800s was a thriving coal mining area, my gt grandfather moved there from Walsall for about 3 years (2 children born there) but was back by 1890 for the birth of my grandfather.
The registration area was Mansfield a fair size town and not far, it had a thriving market. The area has many villages. Coal mines were numerous at one time. It's also quite rural.
The area is the Derbyshire/Nottinghamshire border.
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Hello,
1891 2651/11/15
1901 3136/27/45
Thirza is daughter to Sarah Renshaw
Heywood
I have finally found the 1891 census return for this family in South Normanton. There is one small but perhaps important feature (absence) in this record which reads:
Joseph ?enshaw Head M (age could be anything from 20 to 36)
Sarah (blank) Wife M (age 42)
Thirza Gascoigne Daur S (age 18)
The important feature is that Sarah Does not have a surname OR a do (ditto) which every other wife in the list does have. I still haven't found a Joseph Henshaw, Renshaw, Kenshaw married to a Sarah Gascoigne / Gaskin in the marriage indexes. My reasoning here is that although they may have been living as man and wife, they weren't married.
Thirza is most definitely given her birth surname
Alan
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I believe thirza is my great grandmother but I don't know anything about her ! Do you know her date of birth or date she passed ! I've found her in south normanton grave yard but its just a pot urn you can make out her name but nothing else and where the pot is its not in the right place ...... Its on top of another grave ! Would love to know more ! Thank you
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Hi Nicola,
Welcome to Rootschat!
Here are a couple of bits of information that might fill some of the gaps for you and Alan.
Thirza Gascoigne married Henry Ball at Mansfield Register Office in 1897 - but to get the details you would need to purchase the certificate.
Marriage at St Michael, South Normanton, Derbyshire. - 21st Aug 1886 - by banns.
Joseph RENSHAW, aged 27 y, Bachelor, Collier, of South Normanton.
Father = Hercules Renshaw, Collier.
Sarah GASCOIGNE, aged 35y, spinster, Char Woman, of South Normanton.
Father = Enoch Gascoigne, Collier.
Both made their mark X
Witnesses = Samuel Gascoigne & Amey Fletcher
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Added....
Baptism - South Normanton, Derbyshire.
19th March 1873 - Thirza, mother = Sarah GASKIN, abode = South Normanton, Single Woman.
Burial at South Normanton, Derbyshire.
Thirza BALL, abode = 12, Hamlet Lane, South Normanton - 15th Nov 1926 - aged 53 yrs.
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Thank you ! I had my family tree done a few years ago by somebody that just does it has a hobby . she has put that Thirza mum to be Sarah ? And Thirza dad ? Gascoigne but Enoch and Ellen are down has Thirza dads perants ! Thirza's baptism date is spooky my Grandad her son Samuel died 19th March 1993 !
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Marriage at St Michael, South Normanton, Derbyshire. - 21st Aug 1886 - by banns.
Joseph RENSHAW, aged 27 y, Bachelor, Collier, of South Normanton.
Father = Hercules Renshaw, Collier.
Sarah GASCOIGNE, aged 35y, spinster, Char Woman, of South Normanton.
Father = Enoch Gascoigne, Collier.
Both made their mark X
Witnesses = Samuel Gascoigne & Amey Fletcher
This is a great find Dizzifish.
Free BMD indexes
September quarter 1886 Mansfield 7b pg 98
Sarah Gascoigne
There is a spouse missing.
Joseph Renshaw does show correctly in the index pages.
Heywood
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Hi Sheila
That information is most helpful. A couple more chinks filled into the South Normanton wall!
Nicola:
My maternal grandmother died five days after my mother was born - and she was brought up by her aunt and uncle. Said uncle was William Ball - who if my calculations are correct was third cousin to Henry Ball (your grandfather?). What's even more interesting in the light of the intermarriage complexity of the area, Henry and William's common ancestors were Jonathon Gaskin and Ann Mellor
I'll send you a PM!
Alan
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I've now fallen into another morass - looking for Joseph Renshaw's parentage. The marriage quoted above has him born about 1859/60. There are two such births in the Mansfield region both in the June quarter of 1860:
Joseph - mother's maiden name Gascoigne (07b 52)
Joseph - mother's maiden name Allcock (07b 49)
Looking at the 1871, there is no Hercules Renshaw listed - BUT there is an Archeleus Renshaw with his wife Ann and four children.
Archelaus Renshaw married Ann Gascoigne in the third quarter of 1854.
In 1781 the family were living at 84 Dog Pool.
Their neighbours at 83 were Hezekiah Gaskin and family:
At 87 were Enoch Gaskin and family (including Sarah)
So, looks as if Archelaus was transcribed in the Parish Records as Hercules.
Hey ho! now to trace back Ann Gascoigne!
Alan
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Well, well, well!
Ann (Hannah) Gascoigne's parents were Jonathan Gascoigne and Martha Simpson. Ann was born in 1835 the year after her parents marriage.
The 1841 census has the family living at Street Side where their neighbours were William and Hannah Renshaw and their 9 children including 6 year old "Arkliss"!
The web draws ever tighter
Alan
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Hi Alan,
You do like your South Normanton family puzzles!
I have had another look at the 1886 marriage and the first name has the first letter over written and looks to me like an " H" .... but the writing is not that great. While I stick to it looking like Hercules, I can also guess it should/could be Archelaus.... that name has been spelt in many weird and wonderful ways.
This is the marriage for Archaleus.... maybe you might glean a bit more information from that?
Marriage at South Normanton, Derbyshire. - 25th September 1854 - after Banns
Archelaus RENSHAW, aged 19 y, Bachelor, Collier, of South Normanton.
Father = William Renshaw, FWK.
Ann GASCOIGNE, aged 18 y, spinster, Seamer, of South Normanton.
Father = Jonathan Gascoigne, Collier.
Both made their mark X
Witnesses = John Brooks X & Ann Ball
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My granddad's name was Samuel Bernard Ball son of Thriza ! Samuel married and moved to Pinxton . He married Doris Ball ( maiden name Ball ) but apparently my grandma Doris family used to double barrel their name has Darrington Ball but all I have on Doris is her father's name thank you
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I have Samuel B and Doris Ball living at 21 Sherwood Avenue Pinxton in September 1939.
Samuel gave his dob as June 16th 1905; Doris as March 20th 1904.
Also in residence are John W (dob July 6th 1871) and Harriett (dob July 17th 1875) - makes me wonder whether this John William could be the son of John Ball and Mary Jane Hunt
He feeds back to the Ball members of my family through two other South Normanton surnames: Marriott and Naylor
There is a Mansfield marriage record for June 1934
Interestingly, Samuel's next oldest sister was also named Doris.
I currently have 239 members of the Ball family (mostly from South Normanton area) hence all the cross-linkages
Alan
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A bit more to help....
Marriage at Riddings, Derbyshire. - 5th August 1896 - after banns
John William DARRINGTON BALL, aged 25y, Bachelor, Engine Driver, abode Riddings.
Father = William Ball, Collier.
Harriett GRUNDY, aged 21y, Spinster, ------, abode Riddings.
Father = Samuel GRUNDY, Collier.
Both signed.
Witnesses = James Fletcher & Sarah Ann Grundy.
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Yes that's them ..... So Doris mum and dad john William ball and Harriet Grundy lived with them !
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Hi Alan after rereading you last post it seam to me that your Ball relations are to my grandma Doris ball not her husband Samuel Ball thirza Ball son ! I have nothing on john William darrington ball but some on his wife Harriet Grundy thank you nicola
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I think I have found the origin of John William Darrington Ball.
William and Sarah (Shawcross) Ball are living at 4 Dog Kennels (charming name!), Riddings in 1881. They have two sons (Antoin, John) and two daughters (Sarah, Hannah). Also 9 year old boarder John Darrington - said to have been born in Nottingham. The GRO indexes would suggest he was illegitimate (no mother's maiden name): BASFORD 07B 129 S Quarter 1871
By 1891 William and Sarah had moved to 49 West Street, Riddings, taking younger daughter Hannah with them. 19 year old John William was in residence too - now apparently assimilated into the family and bearing the surname Ball. His place of birth is given as Golden Valley.
Interestingy after his marriage to Harriett Grundy, their first two children (Elisie and Arthur) are both given the second name Darrington.
Alan
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Hi has anyone got any more info on the above please.... Thanks Nicola