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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Girl Guide on Thursday 10 August 17 19:06 BST (UK)
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Can anyone help me find the full marriage details for a:-
William R. POOLE - marriage registration is September Quarter 1910 Wandsworth 1d 1426
The spouse is either Ethel M. HODGE or Margaret E. MADDISON
Again I am struggling to find this on Anc**. I've tried all three surnames but nothing seems to be coming up.
I can't find this man on the 1911 census at all. Seems to have disappeared in a puff of smoke!
The William Poole I am trying to find would have been born in either late 1866 or early 1867. Baptised in Wandsworth in February 1867. His first wife died in 1894.
Many thanks to anyone who can help.
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Not all marriage details are online; perhaps, as it was a second marriage, it was at a Register Office and those records are not online.
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The page range for this quarter is 919-1560, the entry you are looking for is towards the upper end so could be outside of the parish register range meaning a registrar attended wedding at a non-Anglican place of worship or a nanny jane suggests, the Register Office itself.
The other man on the page is Percy A(lfred) Houseman.
Can you find him on the 1911 census to see who he married?
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going sideways, Percy & "Ethel" emigrated to America in 1916 and were naturalized in 1922
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The full name of "your" William is I think William Robert Poole, birth reg Mar qtr 1867 Wandsworth (mmn Roberts) and bapt 17 Feb 1867, parents Thomas & Eliza Elizabeth - is that right?
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Yes avm that is the right man.
Still struggling to find him on the 1911.
Looks as though the other two were Percy and Ethel going by what Dawnsh found. That presumably leaves William marrying Margaret.
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Still struggling to find him on the 1911.
Looks as though the other two were Percy and Ethel going by what Dawnsh found. That presumably leaves William marrying Margaret.
The William R. Poole who married Margaret E. Maddison in 1910 may not be yours? The GRO births index has a William George Poole born Q1 1911 Stepney, mmn Maddison. Could be this family ...
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWPQ-B63
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Thank you Bookbox for that find. I've checked your find on the 1911 and this William is definitely not mine, way too young.
So back to the drawing board then.
William is on the 1901 census with his children from his first marriage. The children are on the 1911 but not William.
There are no deaths that would fit my William between 1901 and 1911, so where has he gone???
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Can we please have the page reference for 1901?
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we're not really supposed to help you with the 1911 census, the policy here hasn't changed, but where are the boys in 1911 and what are their occupations?
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Can we please have the page reference for 1901?
It is RG13/483/99/7.
William Poole "36" b Wandsworth (wid) and 3 Poole grandsons are with Richard and Elizabeth Catt. William is described as son-in-law - in fact he is what we would now describe as Richard's stepson (Richard Edwin Catt married William's widowed mother Eliza Elizabeth Poole, Wandsworth, 6 Sep 1891).
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Can we please have the page reference for 1901?
It is RG13/483/99/7.
William Poole "36" b Wandsworth (wid) and 3 Poole grandsons Charles 12 Leonard 10 and William 8 are with Richard and Elizabeth Catt. William is described as son-in-law - in fact he is what we would now describe as Richard's stepson (Richard Edwin Catt married William's widowed mother Eliza Elizabeth Poole, Wandsworth, 6 Sep 1891).
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His first marriage I think was 1 Apr 1889, aged 21, at St John's Battersea to Mary Goodman (spinster, 20, dau of Leonard decd).
William 23 & Mary 22 had no children listed with them in the 1891 census (Wandsworth): RG12/447/59/21, though they had had a son William baptised at St Faith, Wandsworth on 6 Mar 1891 giving the same address: 31 Ferrier St. Perhaps they didn't realise that infants had to be included in the census return.
Children of the marriage may have been registered as follows:
William Poole mmn Goodman, Mar qtr 1891 Wandsworth (perhaps known as Leonard by 1901??)
William Thomas Poole mmn Goodman, Mar qtr 1893 Wandsworth
Death of Mary Poole aged 25, Sep qtr 1894 Wandsworth.
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Hi avm
You have made the correct deductions at your #10 reply.
Leonard Charles Goodman was born on 11th November 1886 to Mary Goodman who married William Poole. I was informed by a relative that Leonard is William's child but born out of wedlock.
He is in the wrong place in the 1901 census, his age should be 14/15.
William Thomas Poole was born on 16th December 1892.
Interesting that you have picked up another William with mmn Goodman from the GRO. At the time I was originally researching the family the GRO didn't have mmn showing on the records. This may be another Poole/Goodman combination who happened to have chosen William as a name. I'll look in to that later.
Dawnsh
The boys are with Richard & Elizabeth Catt in 1911 occupations Unemployed fishmonger, motor driver and soldier. Leonard has reverted to using his mother's maiden name. One has a totally incorrect age!
Leonard and William married two sisters from my grandmother's family.
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Presumably then:
Leonard Charles b 1886 is the child known as Leonard (and the boys are given the wrong ages in 1901, with Charles supposedly the eldest and Leonard - wrongly - the middle son)
William b 1891 (who is definitely of the right couple - I've given you the baptism) is the child known as Charles - again wrongly aged and in the wrong order in 1901.
William Thomas born Dec 1892 and registered Mar qtr 1893 is the one known as William.
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I've ordered the birth cert for the William in 1891. Charles doesn't show up at all in the births between 1888 and 1890 for a Wandsworth registration district.
The parents William and Mary married on 1st April 1889 so either Charles was on the way or born before they married.
I find it odd that I can't find a birth registration. Have you come across a baptism for Charles on Anc**? I don't have a sub to Anc** so I can't check for one.
It seems a little strange that there are two children called William listed in the GRO.
This family seems to delight in leaving you scratching your head wondering who fits in where!
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As I've said, it seems to me likely that "Charles" was the child registered in 1891 as "William".
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The parents William and Mary married on 1st April 1889 so either Charles was on the way or born before they married.
I don't think that's necessarily right.
The children, as you have found, are aged in a different order in 1901 (Charles 12 Leonard 10 William 8 ) from 1901 (Leonard, Charles, William in that order).
Leonard was born and baptised as Goodman in 1886 and, you have said, reverted to that name by 1911. It therefore looks as though Charles is the middle child, and that age 10 in 1901 should properly refer to him.
Generally, accuracy doesn't seem to have been a strong point for the family :D
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Accuracy does seem to have gone haywire for this family. I shall be interested to see what the 1891 certificate for William says when I get it.
The date of birth will hopefully help me to trace him in the 1939 register assuming that he is still alive then!
With a surname like Poole it can be a tad difficult making sure you have the right one.
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Is it possible that Charles, age 12, is actually Leonard Charles (born Goodman) and that he is using his middle name?
No sign of this child either in 1891.
Isobel
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Accuracy does seem to have gone haywire for this family. I shall be interested to see what the 1891 certificate for William says when I get it.
The date of birth will hopefully help me to trace him in the 1939 register assuming that he is still alive then!
With a surname like Poole it can be a tad difficult making sure you have the right one.
Yes unfortunately the baptism register entry for "William" Poole, 6 March 1891, does not give his precise birthdate. However, as I have said the 31 Ferrier St address recorded on the baptism is consistent with William and Mary Poole's location in the 1891 census (I haven't got the census in front of me so can't recall whether they're shown precisely at no 31, but they are in Ferrier St).
When Leonard Charles Goodman was baptised in 1886 to "William & Mary Goodman" the family's abode was I think given as 23 Ferrier St. Again I have not got it in front of me now.
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William and Mary are certainly living at 31 Ferrier Street on the 1891 census.
No children with them at all. One wonders where they have disappeared to. I have been trying to find William's mother Eliza Elizabeth Poole nee Roberts on the 1891 but not having any success yet. I wondered if Leonard or William were with her as I have not been able to find them on the 1891 so far.
Eliza's birth was registered in the March quarter of 1845 Wandsworth.
Whatever I try in the 1891 for Eliza is not coming up with anything. She didn't marry Richard Catt until September 1891 so in theory she should be listed as Poole.
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Ancestry have a Charles Thomas Poole born Jan 1st 1889 ( baptism April 7th) to William Poole, Labourer and Mary - address 22 Ferrier Street.
Isobel
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Ah so, there was (officially) a Charles! Great find. Baptised just a few days after his parents married.
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Down as Charles Thomas Pool on gro/freebmd. Mmn Goodman.
Isobel
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Ooh, great find Isobel. 22 Ferrier Street is the address given on Leonard's birth certificate. So Charles is definitely William and Mary's child.
Not coming up with any birth registration for him though. Not registered for some reason?
Added - Just seen your addition Isobel, so that's why I couldn't find him then! Off to have a look.
Many thanks for finding that.
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I've just realised that the William baptised in 1891 does not appear on the 1901 or 1911 census.
Can anyone find a possible burial for him at all?
I cannot find any likely death for him unless the one below has had an incorrect age listed:-
POOLE, WILLIAM 44
GRO Reference: 1895 M Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 558
4 instead of 44??
Another William who has vanished in a puff of smoke!!??
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Well I was completely wrong about William 1891 being the same person as Charles :) but now that we know better I would have thought it likely that William 1891 died before they apparently had another William (William Thomas) in 1893.
Haven't found a death, though.
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This is what is puzzling me avm. Unless that 1895 death has had the age incorrectly recorded.
Are there any actual burial records for Wandsworth around anywhere? Do Anc** have them or should I be looking elsewhere?
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I've just done a google for Wandsworth burials and found a list from Wandsworth Cemeteries and Putney Vale Crematorium
There are four burials listed between 1891 and 1898 for the name William Poole. The burial dates are:-
26.5.1891, 8.1.1895, 25.5.1895 & 13.1.1898
I wonder if any of those are my William?
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26.5.1891
That's the one!
At Wandsworth Cemetery
Image is here
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-8924-586Y?i=205&cat=505052
John
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Whoo hoo, thanks John, absolutely spot on. 31 Ferrier Street is where his parents are living in the 1891 census.
The only death registration that fits that date is this one:-
Deaths Jun 1891
Poole William 0 Lambeth 1d 266
But why Lambeth when I would have thought it would be Wandsworth?
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It's a mystery. There was a William Poole birth registered March 91, Lambeth, so he seemed the likelier candidate. But no.
Peering at it closely, I think William was actually buried on the 25th!
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Yes it does look like it should be the 25th. You can just see a faint line for the top of the 5.
This thread has strayed somewhat from the original subject which was to locate the father William Robert Poole baptised on 17th February 1867.
I can't seem to find him on the 1911 so has he been missed off or died between 1901 and 1911? A search of the deaths on free bmd for William R Poole/Pool comes up with nothing.
In 1901 his occupation is labourer.
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I have probably missed it somewhere having just joined this thread but what documentation gives him the middle name Robert - His marriage to Mary Goodman is just William
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There is a baptism on 17th February 1867 for William Robert Poole, parents Thomas and Eliza Elizabeth Poole. Thomas is a Railway Porter.
On the marriage certificate for William's son William Thomas Poole he is referred to as William Robert Poole.
He is down as William R on the 1871 census when he is with his mother and her parents. I haven't got round to looking for him on the 1881 census.
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Thanks GG
So often these middle names appear out of nowhere ;D
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I'm getting quite frustrated with the Poole family.
William Robert Poole baptised February 1867 only appears on three census records - 1871 with his mother and her parents George and Elizabeth Roberts RG10 Piece 714 Folio 112 Page 17
1891 with his wife Mary (nee Goodman married 1st April 1889) RG 12 Piece 447, Folio 59 Page 21 & 1901 with his mother and children RG13 Piece 483 Folio 99 Page 7
I've found what may be William Robert's death in DQ 1946 Surrey NE 5G 548
So far I have not been able to find William Robert in 1881, 1911 or the 1939 Register.
William Robert's father is even more difficult. He only appears twice, on his marriage certificate and his son's baptism record. Thomas Poole was of full age when he married Eliza Elizabeth Rogers in Camberwell in1866, occupation Signalman. His son's baptism record in 1867 gives his occupation as Railway Porter.
I therefore have no idea when or where Thomas was born. His wife Eliza remarried on 6th February 1891 to Richard Catt. The 1871 suggests that Eliza was a married lady thereby implying that Thomas is alive in 1871. So presumably Thomas dies between 1871 and 1891?
In view of the fact that Thomas appears to have worked on the railway could some kind soul have a look at the UK, Railway Employment Records, 1833-1956 on Anc* to see if any likely looking Thomas appears on them anywhere?
Many thanks to anyone who can help.
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I've found what may be William Robert's death in DQ 1946 Surrey NE 5G 548
I think that William R Poole may be in Kingston on the 1939 register.
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Thank you Rosie, that certainly looks a good possibility on the 1939.
I think getting his birth certificate would be a good idea. It will then give me his actual birth date which hopefully will be the same as the one in the 1939.
If it is then he must have remarried sometime between 1901 and 1939!
I see that the 1939 address is not very far from the Kingston Cemetery and Crematorium. I wonder if William is in there. I'll see if there are any burial records online for this cemetery.
Thanks once again Rosie.
Added - I've just looked through the burial records for Kingston and my William is not there. The two that were listed were the wrong ages for the burial year given. 93 in 1904 and 31 in 1892.
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W R Poole buried at Richmond Cemetery, 24/10/1946
You can search here
http://www2.richmond.gov.uk/lbrburials/(S(h1g4nv34smacrjwz5bmqrvck))/Search.aspx
But no images, unlike Kingston
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Thank you Jon for finding that. I've made a note of the information available. Now have to decide whether to get the death cert to see what exactly it says. Decisions, decisions...........
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I think you need the birth certificate first :)
I wonder if the death cert would help, he appears to be in a grave with no other relations. The person he was living with died in 1943
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Hi Rosie
I have ordered William's birth cert today so that I can have his exact date of birth. I can then check it against the 1939 entry.
If the person he was living with died in 1943, then in theory a family member could have registered the death. Depends on how much contact he had with his sons. William Thomas died in 1975. Leonard died before 1939 as his wife is a widow in the 1939. Don't know about Charles Thomas as I am finding it difficult to locate him after the 1911 census.
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Well, well, well!! I have been discovering interesting things about William Robert's father Thomas. It seems that he had been a naughty boy and abandoned his wife Eliza and son William and went off to New Zealand.
Went off with another woman called Ann and a son called Henry Robert born in 1872. :o :o
I started off by finally finding a Robert Poole occupation Carter with a son Thomas in the 1861 census RG09 Piece no. 1311, Folio 21, Page 7. I couldn't find a birth record for Thomas but I did find a baptism in Durrington, Wilts in 1844. Now the interesting thing about the baptism record was a little note at the side which said 'Emigrated to New Zealand'. (Thomas' marriage to Eliza indicated that his father was Robert, occ. carter.)
I couldn't find any marriage for Thomas to Ann (not surprisingly as he was already married!) but I did find the birth record for the son Henry MQ 1872 St. Saviour's. I then found a baptism record for Henry in 1872 St. Peter's Walworth, Southwark and lo and behold Thomas' occupation is Signalman. Same occupation that Thomas had when he married Eliza Roberts in 1866.
Further investigation revealed that they emigrated to New Zealand in May 1872 just a few months after Henry was born. And there they stayed until their deaths in 1922 and 1926.
So Eliza committed bigamy when she married Robert Catt in 1891 although as that was nearly 20 years after Thomas did his bunk, she may well have considered him to be dead.
That was the result of an afternoon and evening of digging and delving and lots of printing of records. Phew! (Wipes sweat off brow). ;D ;D
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It certainly sounds as though it was an interesting afternoons research ;D What a result having that remark in the baptism register
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Yes, if it wasn't for that remark re New Zealand it is unlikely that I would have got any further than the 1861 census that I found.
Just goes to show that you need a bit of luck in the family history saga.
I tried to find the address that Thomas and Ann had given in the baptism record which was 19 Princes Street in Southwark in the 1871 census. It was completely missed off. By design or by chance? Will never know now.
Waiting now for William Robert's birth cert (1867) to check the exact date of birth. Once I have that I can re-check the 1939 entry that you found for me at reply #38.
I have also located William's son Charles Thomas in the 1939. The second name has been mis-read as an I instead of a T. The year of birth is also one out, 1890 instead of 1889. Although I haven't got the marriage cert to verify it, it appears that Charles married the widow of John South, Mary Ellen South. John and his wife were living at the same address as Charles and his siblings in 1911 but in another room of the building.
Gradually beginning to fill in gaps for the Poole family. Not sure yet how far I want to take this.
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Keep us posted :)
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Hi Everyone
I have now received the birth cert for William Robert Poole and his birth date is 24th December1866. This is the same dob that is given in the 1939 record that was found for me.
So has to be the same man. He is down as being married in the 1939. Is that going to be a correct or a misleading piece of information??
Could be quite difficult to pin down a marriage. There are a potential 13 marriages for William Robert or William R countrywide between 1901, when he was last definitely on a census record, and 1939.
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Presumably then the 1946 death is him
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kk4/
William Robert POOLE
Date of Burial -24/10/1946
Male
Age - 80 Years
Date of death -Unknown
Location Richmond Cemetery
Section 1
Grave 7632
Others in grave show on the link - they all died around the same time
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I think we can assume the 1946 death is William. He died after the lady that was at the same address as him in the 1939.
I don't know what to make of the fact that he is down as being married. To whom? The lady with him is down as being single. The image very clearly shows an M rather than a W.
In the 1901 William is down as a widower.
I'll go for broke and get the death certificate. I shall have to wait and see if it clarifies anything with regard to any possible marriage for William. It all rides on the informant!!
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I have now received the death certificate for William. Unfortunately it is not of any great help.
William died on 18th October 1946 at 2 Grove Road, Richmond. Under column five which is for occupation, there is occupation unknown but also an address of 7 Garratt Lane, Wandsworth.
The informant was an L. Danson occupier of 2 Grove Road, Richmond.
So this doesn't solve the mystery of why William appears as married in the 1939.
I'll see if I can find either of these addresses in the 1911 and on electoral rolls that go up to 1932
on FindMyPast.
Added: No-one of the name Poole or Danson at either of those addresses in 1911. As I can't get the hang of how to use the electoral rolls on FindMyPast for 1932, not getting anywhere with those.
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Arrived late to this thread , but if you check the 1939 for Danson in Richmond you will see what was at Grove Road and who L Danson was. It doesn't really help but will explain the connection.
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Oh right, so William ended up in an institution of some kind, possibly a mental one? William died of senile decay plus gangrene of toes. The gangrene sounds horrid!
Grove Road Institution covers four pages, so quite big then, includes staff as well as inmates.
I need to try and access electoral rolls for 7 Garratt Lane, Wandsworth to see how long William was there before he ended up at Grove Road.
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I wonder if the Garratt Lane address was another Institution ?
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Doesn't look like it. Just two people living at that address in 1939.
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I've had a response regarding an electoral roll check for 1945 and 1946 for the 7 Garratt Lane address. Apparently no-one registered at all for 7 Garratt Lane.
Perhaps William had lived there and it was put down as an address on his death certificate.
I have ordered the death certificate for Beatrice Earl who was with him in the 1939 register. She died in 1943, three years before William, so it will be interesting to see what information it contains.
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Hi
Garratt Lane must be one of the longest roads in London!
This OS map from 1949 seems to throw doubt on whether there was a 7 Garratt Lane at the time, possible blitz damage not withstanding.
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=19&lat=51.4565&lon=-0.1928&layers=173&b=1
I've been trying to trace number 7 through the electoral registers
1914 Albert James Woolridge
1915 James Arthur Harris
1918 Edwin and Jane Rake
1920 George Frederick Hill, joined shortly after by Eliza Hill
BUT
From 1930 the numbering seems to have changed, and no number 7
What was number 3 appears to be number 17 (Hawkins family)
5 is 19 (Shave family)
And George Frederick + Eliza Hill are at 21 Garratt Lane
All I can see is 7 Bellamy House, Garratt Lane
Which in 1945, 1946, has Gladys A Pembroke listed.
Bellamy House seems to be way down Garratt Lane, just past Streatham Cemetery.
I don't know if there are/were any other housing blocks in the road.
John
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My goodness me Jon, it is a long road!! Starts at Wandsworth High Street and comes out at the A24 Tooting High Street/Upper Tooting Road.
I see from the map link that you have given me that there is a gap between No. 5 and the County Court. Presumably No. 7 was perhaps in the gap?
Gladys Pembroke is the lady living at 7 Garratt Lane in the 1939. The map that FindMyPast provide of the address plonks No. 7 near to Earlsfield Station! A 1937 to 1961 Ordnance Survey Map is the one used.
One is left wondering exactly where No. 7 was!
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I have now received the death certificate for Beatrice Earl who was living with William in the 1939 register.
She died on 23rd January 1943 at 45 Alfred Road which is the same address as the 1939. The informant was not William but an F C ?Sands of 69 Hawks Road, Kingston. So no clue as to whether William was still at 45 Alfred Road in 1943 or whether he had moved on to the 7 Garratt Lane address that appears on his 1946 death certificate.
Can anyone tell me how I can access the electoral roll for 45 Alfred Road between 1943 and 1946 to see who was living there between Beatrice's death and William's?
I'm curious to know for how many years William lived at 45 Alfred Road from 1939 to 1946.
Help to find this out would be much appreciated - thank you.
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Can anyone tell me how I can access the electoral roll for 45 Alfred Road between 1943 and 1946 to see who was living there between Beatrice's death and William's?
Almost no electoral rolls during WW2. You might get one for 1946.
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Okay, thanks for that Bookbox
I am also puzzled as to why William has M for married in the 1939 when the woman who was also living at the same address is down as S for single.
If William was a married man in 1939 then where is his wife?
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It looks as though F C Sands was married to her relation :)
Marriages Mar qtr 1929
Earle Elsie M
Sands Frederick C (spouse Earle)
Kingston 2a 793
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If William was a married man in 1939 then where is his wife?
Was his first wife still alive :-\
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No his wife died in 1894
Deaths Sep 1894
Poole Mary 25 Wandsworth 1d 308
The 1901 census has him as widower living with his sons and his mother and her second husband.
I have not been able to find William on the 1911 census. It doesn't matter what I try, I just can't seem to find him. I wanted to see if he was still a widower in the 1911.
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Thank you, I was avoiding going back through your posts ;D