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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Sussex => Topic started by: Vabre on Sunday 13 August 17 21:45 BST (UK)
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I am interested in knowing the parents of the above who died in 1853 in Ticehurst in Sussex. ???
Henry was born in 1833 in Sussex.
Any help greatly appreciated,
Pam...Sydney
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Looks as if he was illegitimate
Henry John Clapson
Christening : 3 Feb 1833
Salehurst, Sussex, England
Mother: Mary Clapson
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J7ZX-ZQ6
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Hi Mary Clapson married Henry French Widowed 13th August 1834 Salehurst, Henry John Clapson 18 is Son in Law in 1851, and John CLAPSTON 8 in 1841
Keyboard86
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So as he didn't take Henry's surname and he is described as son in law (another way of describing step son), the chances are that Henry wasn't his father.
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From The Keep
Title: Maintenance order
Date: 26 Feb 1833
Repository: East Sussex Record Office
ESRO reference: PAR 477/34/1/83
John Southwell of Salehurst, cordwainer; 7s 6d maintenance, 40s expenses and 1s 6d per week for the illegitimate son of Mary Clapson of Salehurst, singlewoman, who was born on 26 Dec 1832 at the house of Mary's father in Salehurst, she to pay 6d per week
Creator(s): Parish of Salehurst
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Vabre - I see that you have shared the Bastardy Paper on Ancestry in May, so did you already know this? Are you looking for more information about John Southwell and Mary Clapson?
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Thank you all for your replies. However this is my dilemma.
I have a John French who married Ellen O'Halloran at St.Mary's Cathedral Sydney on 2 April 1855. I am trying to ascertain as to the place in Sussex from where John French came from. His death certificate said born Sussex ( but where ?). Mothers name Mary, fathers name Henry. I am unable to find any other information and cannot find him in the shipping papers or the immigration arrivals, either assisted or unassisted.
So rightly or wrongly I looked for, and found, a connection of a John Clapson , son-in-law, in the census, with his father Henry and mother Mary. This exactly matched my John French who just may have taken his step fathers name.We know that this John was born out of wedlock of which I posted a copy of the Bastardy papers on Ancestry which may in time be deleted.
I have just discovered the death of a Henry John Clapson ,aged 20, in Ticehurst who died in 1853, I have now ordered the death certificate.
Hopefully this may solve my problem for I am so confused.
I hope I haven't confused you as well.
Pam...Sydney
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Henry John Clapson
buried 17 August 1853, Salehurst
age 20
abode seems to be same street as for 1851 census
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Henry John Clapson
buried 17 August 1853, Salehurst
age 20
abode seems to be same street as for 1851 census
So presumably if this is correct, John French and Henry John Clapson are two different people.
To be honest, if Henry was still using the name Clapson in 1851, I doubt, unless he was trying to hide, if he would have suddenly changed to John French. Did John and Ellen have any children, if so, what were they called as that may help us track him down? Does it give parents' names on his death or marriage certificate?
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Thank you to Jon & Groom,
The children of Ellen nee O'Halloran and John French are Mary Anne, Catherine, John, Bridget, Sarah and George, the Marriage certificate does not have any parents listed so not much help there.
Ellen O'Halloran was born in Limerick in 1829.
In considering the possibility they used the Irish naming pattern? Ellen O'Halloran's sister was Mary (not Mary Ann) her mother's name was Catherine, her fathers name was John her younger sister was Bridget but no Sarah or George in her family. I may be grasping at straws.
On John's death certificate 9th. June 1917, it states he was a caretaker, with the occupation of his father being that of a Mariner, his father's name Henry and his mother's name Mary.
Many thanks, Pam...Sydney
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I see there are a lot of trees on Ancestry that also think Henry John Clapson is John French, but if that death is correct, he can't be!
John French's father you say is given as a mariner, but Henry French in 1851 is a labourer.
There is a John French on the 1841 census who was living in Eastbourne, but his parents were George and Ann. He had a lot of siblings, one of whom was Sarah. His father was a fisherman.
It could be that whoever registered John French's death didn't know details about his family in England.
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Groom, Thank you for your reply,I remember when I first started this family I thought I was going to have problems and all these years later, I am no further advanced ???
Pam.
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Hi again, as we are all clutching at straws, a family in 1851 that caught my eye:-
Henry French 50 occ Seaman b Eastbourne
Mary 50 b London
Plus others in Hastings Sussex
Census Ref HO107/1635/528/58
At present have not checked out this family in 1841?!
Keyboard86
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That looks a good one, correct parents' names, let's hope a John is with them in 1841.
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Probably a complete red herring, but a tree on Ancestry has who is probably that Henry, born 16th Nov 1801 Eastbourne. He had a sister Louisa who married John Keeping and on 9th April 1853 they and their 4 children arrived in Australia on the Eliza. Could her nephew John have followed them out there? She died 1884 and her parents were given as William French and Mary Cussen.
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Many thanks to keyboard and groom, my husband and I have spent the best part of the day looking for your suggestions, no luck so far, to-morrow I will have another go, don't hold out much hope but will see. ::) ::)
Pam
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There's a Henry and Mary French in Hastings in 1841, but no John
East Beach Street
Henry French 35 Fisherman, Yes (born county)
Mary French 40 No
Others at the address
Possible marriage at St Clements Hastings, 24 March 1824, Henry French + Mary Finch
By Banns. Both single, and of the parish. Witnessed by Louisa French.
A baptism at St Clements, 18 February 1825, of Frederick French. Parents Henry + Mary, father a Fisherman.
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If John's father was a mariner or fisherman, I would have thought he was far more likely to come from Eastbourne or Hastings than Salehurst which is inland.
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If John's father was a mariner or fisherman, I would have thought he was far more likely to come from Eastbourne or Hastings than Salehurst which is inland.
Going back to that Eastbourne John, I don't think the LDS have filmed the registers for that period. There is a submission on the IGI of a John French, baptized 3 June 1832 at St Mary Eastbourne. Parents George and Ann (Ann Pain according to the submitter)
A seaman's ticket, BT 113
John French
born Eastbourne, Sussex, 2 May 1833
Capacity - Boy
Resides at Eastbourne
Issued at Rye, 1st October 1847
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That last piece of information gives an exact date of birth. Does his death certificate or burial give a date of birth for comparison?
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There's a Henry and Mary French in Hastings in 1841, but no John
East Beach Street
Henry French 35 Fisherman, Yes (born county)
Mary French 40 No
Others at the address
Possible marriage at St Clements Hastings, 24 March 1824, Henry French + Mary Finch
By Banns. Both single, and of the parish. Witnessed by Louisa French.
A baptism at St Clements, 18 February 1825, of Frederick French. Parents Henry + Mary, father a Fisherman.
Hi this would seem to suggest the witness to the marriage of Henry to Mary Finch is the Louisa French that married John Keeping and left for Australia 1853, in 1851 census previous to Henry & Mary is a Sarah Finch 74 Widow occ Lodging House Keeper & Laundress b Hastings
So one would expect any baptisms for Henry/Mary to be in Hastings not Eastbourne?
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Hi thought I would look for Louisa French who married John Keeping prior to 1853 departure to Australia:-
1851 census
John WEEPING 40
Louisa 42
John 15
Grace 14
Louisa 10
Ann E 12
George 8
Thomas 6
Mary French 85 Mother in Law b Hastings
Residing Eastbourne
Census ref HO107/1637/195/20
Keyboard86
EDIT Sarah Finch 64 and Mary French 72 are next to each other occ for both Laundress in 1841, Census ref HO107/1107/ 2/39 / 25
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Making a rare visit to ancestry family trees -
His death registration is on one of them at least
District of Port Melbourne, Victoria
John French, a Caretaker
died 9 June 1917
age 85 years
father and mother - Henry French and Mary French, Maiden surname not known. Henry a Mariner
born Sussex, England. In Victoria 40 years + ? years in NSW (might be 6 perhaps)
Age would fit with the 1832 John French baptism in Eastbourne (submitted) on IGI, parents George + Ann.
He may have reduced his age by a year when going to sea as a boy.
Or, yes, Henry and Mary (right names!) may have had a child or two in Eastbourne. If so, they are not with them on the census.
Really we need someone with access to Eastbourne baptisms.
John
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Problem is the parents' names isn't it?
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Yes, we have a John of the right age, wrong parents names.
As Pam has told us, John French married Ellen O'Halloran, and they did have a son George. Who seems to have died in Victoria in 1884. But apparently no son Henry.
Probably doesn't mean anything!
John
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Thing is as well, if he'd been in Australia for well over 50 years, unless he talked about his parents, whoever registered his death may not have known their names.
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Thank you all so much in the time your are taking to help me, I cannot add any more information except that in my mind you are all on the mark that the family came from a seaside town which is either Eastbourne or Hastings, as you are the natives in the area you have the access and the knowledge that unfortunately I am not privy to. ;D
Thank you once again, Pam.
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From Sussex Family History Group online records to confirm the 1832 baptism
Entry from Eastbourne St Mary 1828 - 1840
John FRENCH
Baptism Date 03-Jun 1832
Father George FRENCH
Mother Ann FRENCH
Occupation Fisherman
Abode South St
Parish Eastbourne
There is a marriage in Eastbourne in 1819 to Ann Pain but that may be a bit early. Also one in Salehurst in 1831 to Ann Youell.
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Thank you Sillgen for your reply,
I don't seem to be any nearer in finding John French,all that I know on his death certificate it says his parents are Henry and Mary French, his father was a mariner,and he was from Sussex, no other information from an informant either. My earlier belief was Henry John Clapson was my relative but then recently found he had died in 1853, so that was the end of that, now I have to restart my search, and it is proving to be very difficult, the Rootschat people are amazing,I guess I have to be patient, one day I may be lucky.
Pam
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You could add another seaside town into the mix as a Henry French married Mary Weller in Brighton on 14 May 1832. Mary was under 21 and married with the consent of mother My W.
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Thank you Sillgen,
Every piece of information is very much appreciated, I am now on another track and will be occupied for quite a while today.
Many thanks,Pam :)