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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Banffshire => Topic started by: Bosconermal on Thursday 17 August 17 19:47 BST (UK)
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My great grandfather died in Vancouver, Canada after an on-the job accident in 1914. He’s buried there in an unmarked grave. By shear happenstance, I recently discovered and came in contact with a group of people in Vancouver from the same organization that have raised money to put a marker on his grave. That means we need to put his dates on it so, it I really want to make sure I get his birth year right.
The parish register of William Riddoch's birth says that he was born "William Natural Son of Alexander Riddoch son of James Riddoch, Farmer in Upper Deuchries and of Jean Pirie, daughter of James Pirie Crofter in ?? of Deuchries" on 23 Feb 1851. His birth is at the top of the page, but the order of entries on the page looks random (1851, 1854, 1843, 1845, 1848, 1851) and all in the same hand, so may have been copied from another source or sources sometime later.
His death certificate acknowledges the parentage of the parish register but gives his birth date as 23 Feb 1854. The Census in 1861, 1871, 1881, 1891, 1901 and 1911 (Canada) imply a birth year of 1852 or 1853.
I can’t find him in the 1851 Census. His mother Jane was living with her parents James and Anne Pirie in Alvah, but no William. There is a baby Elizabeth in the census but she is Jane’s sister’s daughter. William’s father was Alexander Riddoch who could be a couple of people in the census, but with no baby. Same for paternal grandparents.
If he was born on February 23 and the census was March 31 you’d think he’d be there.
Any suggestions?
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It is very common, in 1854, to find large numbers of entries in a Scottish parish baptismal register, many of them from different years. This is because statutory registration of births, marriages and deaths was about to begin on 1st January 1855. Many folk who had neglected to have baptisms entered rushed to have them retrospectively added.
If you could post an image of part of the page, it might help. Another thing is to look at the minutes of the kirk session which would have looked into the circumstances of the conception!
What year appears on the index?
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In the 1861 William is listed as aged 9. If accurate, his means that he had not had his tenth birthday by the date of the census, 7 April 1861, implying not that he was born in 1852, but that he was born between 8 April 1851 and 7 April 1852. (You get a wrong year of birth about three times out of four if you subtract the age in the census from the census year, because the census is taken about a quarter of the way through the year.)
Also, in 1861 there is a younger child, Margaret, aged 3. This looks like Margaret, illegitimate daughter of Robert Riddoch and Christian Pirie, who was born on 1 August 1857, and would have had her third birthday in the summer before the 1861 census. (Again, subtracting her age, 3, from the census year, 1861, gives the wrong result.)
In 1871 it looks as if William, aged 19, was a servant at Currydown in Auchterless. If accurate, this implies a birth between 3 April 1851 and 2 April 1852, and corresponds exactly with his age in 1861.
For what it's worth, I think that an age when someone is a child is more reliable than an age on a death certificate. Also people tend to remember their birthday more accurately than the year they were born. So IMO 1851/1852 is more likely than 1853 or later.
As GR2 says, the key to this might be the Kirk Session minutes. See http://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/overview.aspx?st=1&tc=y&tl=n&tn=n&tp=n&k=alvah&ko=a&r=ch2%2f&ro=s&df=&dt=&di=y
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Interesting! I hadn't thought of the effect of switching to statutory registers before.
What do you mean by index? The top of the page in the parish record from SP says 23/02/1851. that appears to be accurate according to what's written below.
I'd love to look at the kirk records, though I'm in Toronto and don't know how to access them. The local genealogy society would probably know I guess.
Forfarian-- I have him in 1871 as a farm servant in Marnoch, aged 18. It's possible that's wrong because when I started dabbling with genealogy a few years ago I was less diligent about evidence than now. William had an illegitimate daughter in Monquhitter in August 1871 if that's any help.
I do usually take the earliest date, all things being equal. Good advice on taking off an extra year-- it's something I sort of know in the back of my head, but will be careful about.
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It is absolutely clear from the entry that the year was 1851, just entered later. The details in the entry are very full and precise. That would mean he is "missing" from the 1851 census. Or hiding somewhere. The kirk session minutes would clinch it.
Alexander Riddoch is with his parents at Upper "Deucharies", Alvah, in 1841. He is an agricultural labourer, aged "12".
In 1851 he is a farm servant, aged 22, working for Helen Brodie, farmer of 40 acres at Coblehouse, Marnoch.
I see that his father, James, came from Grange, which was a veritable nest of Riddochs. If you can trace his branch of the Riddochs back to the first quarter of the 18th century, then send me a message as I have a great deal of information about the Riddochs/Ruddachs in Grange going back to the late 16th century.
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If you reckon the birth record in the OPR is OK and the Kirk Session doesn't imply otherwise, I suggest the baby William Riddoch was with his mother in 1851 but the 1851 census is messed up.
I would look closely as the original 1851 census entry for what looks to be Jean Pirie's family at Hill Of Deuchries, on the basis that it's been wrongly enumerated, not simply wrongly transcribed:
PIRIE James Head M M 41 Farmer Of 27 Acres Hill Ground Banffshire - Banff
PIRIE Anne Wife M F 45 Wife Of The Above Banffshire - Marnoch
PIRIE Jean Dau U F 21 Assistant To Her Parents Banffshire - Marnoch
PIRIE Anne Dau U F 18 Assistant To Her Parents Banffshire - Marnoch
PIRIE James Son - M 11 Scholar Banffshire - Marnoch
PIRIE John Son - M 8 Scholar Banffshire - Marnoch
PIRIE William Son - M 6 Banffshire - Marnoch
PIRIE Elisabeth Dau - F 2m Banffshire - Alvah
The last three lines definitely do not tally with the IGI, as below.
Perhaps things got muddled and one line got missed, like:-
PIRIE John Son - M 8 Scholar Banffshire - Alvah
PIRIE William Son - M 6 Banffshire - Alvah
PIRIE William Gdson - M 1m Banffshire - Alvah
PIRIE Elisabeth Dau - F 2m Banffshire - Alvah
Her parents (per IGI) had two son and a daughter thus:
John Pirie
Gender Male
Christening Date 28 Aug 1842
Christening Place ALVAH,BANFF,SCOTLAND
Birth Date 07 Aug 1842
Father's Name James Pirie
Mother's Name Anne Henry
William Pirie
Gender Male
Christening Date 04 Oct 1844
Christening Place ALVAH,BANFF,SCOTLAND
Birth Date 16 Aug 1844
Father's Name James Pirie
Mother's Name Anne Henry
Christian Pirie
Gender Female
Christening Date 08 Feb 1851
Christening Place ALVAH,BANFF,SCOTLAND
Birth Date 24 Jan 1851
Father's Name James Pirie
Mother's Name Anne Henry
This cannot be right, because they had a daughter Christian Pirie in 1835 who survived to marry Robert Riddoch in 1860. Something fishy afoot! If one thing can be wrong, other things can be wrong. Who really were the parents of Christian who became Elisabeth?!
In all honesty (if the OPR seems right) I would not put too much weight on the year of birth given upon his death - the fact that the day/month is right tells me that the year isn't right, even though his age is understated at the censuses. Being nine in 1861 gives a range of bet 9-4-1851 and 8-4-1852, so is only a couple of months out.
Never mind the census, this whole family was quite a muddle! I have three essentially separate connections into them:-
- Alexander Riddoch's brother James Riddoch had illeg George Riddoch abt 1848 by Charlotte Grant (Banff) who was the stepdau of my 3xgtgdmother Janet Cruickshank.
- Another brother John Riddoch had a illeg George Riddoch in 1849 in Deuchries who had an illeg Anne Riddoch 27 Feb 1869 by Jane Scott (Rothiemay) who was second cousin once removed of the same Janet Cruickshank.
- their aunt Helen Riddoch (Grange) managed to have an illeg Jean Riddoch or Cooper then Pirie who married William Lemon 23 Jun 1860 who is a descendant ultimately of my 5xgtgdfather William Gordon in Grange.
Keeping tabs on that lot is like herding cats.
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The best thing would be for a look at the original.
Another thought could the baptism you have be a child who died & another born later given same name? (I haven't looked on SP) it was just a thought!
Annie
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Piries and Riddochs intermarrying have caused me no end of confusion. It even continued a bit in Canada.
The earliest Riddoch in my tree is John Riddoch (wife is Isabel Huie) born in 1735
If I hadn't discovered the group raising money for the headstone, they would have put 1854 as his birthdate because that's on the death certificate and what the cemetery knows. I feel a responsibility to him to get it right.
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The parish register of William Riddoch's birth says that he was born "William Natural Son of Alexander Riddoch son of James Riddoch, Farmer in Upper Deuchries and of Jean Pirie, daughter of James Pirie Crofter in ?? of Deuchries" on 23 Feb 1851. His birth is at the top of the page, but the order of entries on the page looks random (1851, 1854, 1843, 1845, 1848, 1851) and all in the same hand, so may have been copied from another source or sources sometime later.
Any suggestions?
Baptisms took place in homes rather than in church i.e. there's a very good chance when the Vicar/Priest was transferring his info. often weeks after an event he may well have got the year wrong but I don't think he would have it 3 yrs out from 1854 to 1851 but I would think one year out from 1852 to 1851 would be possible?
I have now checked SP for the possibility of a later birth which there isn't however the birth date hasn't changed which points to the 1851 Baptism & the Vicar/Priest possibly getting it wrong but you would really need to check the original 1851 census to be sure or at least the SP Index?
Annie
Added...I have a relative (well deceased) with the wrong year engraved on his MI which is out by 1 year :o
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1851 SP Index PIRIE which appears to be 2 different households (next door to each other or over 2
pages);
ISABEL 70 146/ 2/ 10 Alvah Banff
ELSPET 50
JOHN 46
ANNE 45
JAMES 41
JEAN 21 146/ 2/ 11 Alvah Banff
ANN 18
JAMES 11
JOHN 8
WILLIAM 6
ELIZABETH 0
Annie
Added...
The 1851 census was taken on Sunday 30 March i.e. that may be WILLIAM aged 6 WKS?
I would strongly advise a look at the 2 original census pages (not just the index) to be sure of ages & relationships at a total cost of £3.00bp to put your mind at rest?
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I checked the original census page and it's pretty washed out but clearly no baby William.
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The William in the 1851 James and Anne Pirie census seems to be Jane/Jean Pirie's younger brother:
William, Lawful son of James Pirie, Crofter, Hill of Deuchries, and of Anne Henry, was born at Milbethill in the parish of Marnoch on the 16th day of August 1844 - and baptized on the 4th October in the same year by the Revered David Henry Free Church Minister of Marnoch in presence of James Morrison, Petterden, and William Wilson, Milbethill, witnesses
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Have you found him in later census' to be sure he didn't die young? (James & Anne's son).
My thought was if the son William had died pre statutory it's unlikely to be recorded although not impossible & the census for 1851 would determine which William it was i.e. killing 2 birds with one stone & at least finding out whether there was a Clergy error with your William if he's not the one on 1851?
Annie
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It looks like 1844 William married Margaret Symon in May 1870. Tragically, she died in January 1871 of scarlet fever and William was enumerated at his father home in 1871.
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I would say there was a cleric error with William's baptism year from that?
Likely 1852 instead of 1851?
Annie
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I checked the original census page and it's pretty washed out but clearly no baby William.
Sorry, missed this post....it's also possible he was in his crib sleeping & just not added which with the amount of bodies in the house could be easily forgotten :-\
Annie
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It sounds like the Kirk Session minutes might be the best way to sort this out. I just have to figure out how to access them from Canada.
Thank you all for your help!
Richard
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You could request a look-up & explain the memorial which is being planned for him.
Annie
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If I hadn't discovered the group raising money for the headstone, they would have put 1854 as his birthdate because that's on the death certificate and what the cemetery knows. I feel a responsibility to him to get it right.
In your position I would send them a copy of the original birth and baptism record, and settle for the DoB being as recorded in that.
Errors do occur in the census, and it isn't unknown for a baby to be just missed off the list, or omitted when the enumerator transcribes the household data into the book. Additional errors are often introduced in transcription, though less often in FreeCEN because the data is transcribed twice by two different people, both of whom know the area. On the other hand Rosinish's suggestion that he is aged 6 weeks not 6 years should be looked into.
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I will probably go with the birth/baptism record but as Rosinsh suggested I am going to send out a lookup request for the kirk session just in case someone has an opportunity to check. I can't do more short of going to Scotland and it would be good to put the doubt to rest.
Thank you all for your help-- I always learn a lot from these exchanges.
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My great grandfather William Riddoch was born in Alvah, Banffshire and died in Vancouver, Canada in 1914 in a work-related accident. He was buried in Vancouver in an unmarked grave. By miraculous happenstance, I recently learned that a group of people from the company he used to work for has raised funds to put a marker on his grave. There is a question about his year of birth, however.
His death certificate says he was born on February 23, 1854 and that is likely wrong. The parish record says he was born on February 23, 1851:
“William Natural Son of Alexander Riddoch son of James Riddoch, Farmer in Upper Deuchries and of Jean Pirie, daughter of James Pirie Crofter in m? of Deuchries was born 23 February 1851 - and subsequently baptized by the Reverend Andrew Todd of Alvah in presence of George Shearer and William Pirie witnesses.” (see attachment)
Census records from 1861-on imply a birth year of 1852 or 1853. I have been unable to find him in the 1851 census (when he would have been 1 month old), despite the help of some rootschat colleagues. Maybe he was just missed, but it would sure be good to confirm that 1851 birth year.
The best suggestion has been to find him in Kirk Session records, where his parentage would likely have been discussed. Those records are only available in Scotland, not online, and I live in Toronto, Canada.
If a member has an opportunity to look this up in the Kirk Sessions and confirm that his birth year is 1851 (or not), I would be grateful. I feel I owe it to William Riddoch to do what I can to get his dates right.
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There is this entry on the 1851 census, also living at the same reference is a William aged 30, Mary aged 31 and James aged 2. I have no credits at the moment to look at Scotlands People. Could Jean have "placed" baby William with his uncle? ( William being a witness at the baptism)
PIRIE
WILLIAM
1851
M
0
146/ 5/ 9
Alvah
Banff
Could we merge here please as same /similar topic, I have looked for something already dealt with- again
Threads merged
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Thanks, Larkspur
I'll look into that to see if it's possible.
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It looked promising but the SP index says that the baby William is 0 and the actual facsmile says "9 mos" (also in FreeCen). Also says that baby William on is the son of William, the head of the household.