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Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: auntya on Monday 21 August 17 20:37 BST (UK)
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Please could someone help me?
I've been searching for James Tierney Lawson for sometime now and think I've discovered him in Canada!
It's a long story but basically James (born 18/03/1883 Ayr, Scotland and Plasterer by trade) abandoned his pregnant wife and child in 1911 and disappeared!!!
I've now discovered a James Lawson in the Canadian WW1 Attestation papers, signing up in Montreal.
He states that his birth date is 18/03/1884 born Ayr, Scotland and is a Plasterer. He also states his next of kin is his wife Lillie Lawson??? This is not the wife he left behind in Scotland!
I would love to be able to find out what happened to him. Did he stay in Canada, have more children?
When did he die?
If any of you kind people out there could answer these questions I'd be so appreciative.
Many thanks
Andrea
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Can you tell who his parents were please?
PB
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The full WW1 digital file for the James Lawson you mention is at http://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/?op=pdf&app=CEF&id=B5470-S031 Free to view, and insanely slow to load.
The only relative mentioned in it, that I could see, was wife Lilly.
It states he died 15 Sep 1949.
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Hi,
From Library and Archives Canada, Veteran's Death Card, Page 753
Lawson, James, #457331 died 15-9-49, Westminster Hospital, London, burial St. Peter's Cemetery, London, Ontario, grave 7, lot 27, sect. C., cause of death aortic aneurysm, no next of kin listed.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01kkc/
St. Peter's Cemetery gravestone,
http://geneofun.on.ca/names/photo/1872459
There are other Lawson's in that cemetery, but no Lillie/Lily.
http://geneofun.on.ca/cems/ON/ONMID12723?filter=lawson
Cheers,
DB
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Hi,
An interesting note in his military file, a letter dated January 1956 addressed to Director, War
Services stating that an employee of the Windsor Star (newspaper), in Windsor, Ontario found
Jame's discharge certificate while going through old books purchased at an auction sale. It may
mean that he spent time in Windsor, Ontario or the book made it rounds in auction sales in
Ontario.
Cheers,
DB
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Oh my goodness! I can't believe the speed at which you wonderful people of solved this mystery for me!
Polar Bear - his parents were Robert Lawson & Christina Tierney.
bbart & dbree - THANK YOU SOOOOOO MUCH! I'm sure this is my man.
One more question to all of you - would his death certificate give his parents names?
I doubt he actually married Lily as that would make him a bigamist ( but then again nothing would surprise me)
Regards
Andrea
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Hi,
His death certificate information would depend on his next of kin, if there were any, and what the informant knew.
Cheers,
DB
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The public indexes for 1949 won't be available yet due to privacy laws.
http://www.archives.gov.on.ca/en/tracing/the_records.aspx
Here also is what you would need to order a cert.
https://www.ontario.ca/page/how-get-copy-ontario-death-certificate-online
PB
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Hi,
You could try the London Library for an obituary and since you know his date of death you
may qualify for their quick lookup (no charge).
http://www.londonpubliclibrary.ca/research/genealogy/research-request-form
DB
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Hi DB,
I'm so grateful for all the info & advice you've given. This evening is going to be spent reading through everything and sending emails to the various links.
Want to try and find out as much as I can about James Lawson.
Regards
Andrea
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Hi,
You're welcome. :)
There is a James Lawson in the Obituary and Death Index Database from the London/Middlesex
Family History age 66 d. 1949, which makes it possible it is him and possible that there is indeed
an obituary. The fee through them is $5.00 for a copy of the obit. I'd try the library first though.
https://londonmiddlesex.ogs.on.ca/obituaries.html
DB
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Hi,
DB - London Room got back to me very promptly with an image of James' obit (so once again thanks for the link & advice).
It doesn't give me much more info but it does mention the Funeral 'residence' where he was 'resting', which is still in existence, so I've emailed them asking if they archive their records.
So, I have another couple of questions (0h no! Not again I hear you say)!
Would St Peters Cemetery be able to tell me who purchased James' plot & headstone?
Also, as I don't know whether Canada is the same as the UK, is there a way of checking to see if he left a will or not. I'm wondering, if he did, that it could possibly give me details of wife, children etc?
Sorry for all the questions! If only I lived in Canada!
Andrea
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Hi,
Wow, that was quick from the London Library, two thumbs up for them. In the obit did it mention
anything about visitation hours/times?
Not sure what St. Peter's has in connection with burial information. Best to email them. Was
James Catholic? St. Peter's is the only Catholic cemetery in London. He was in a military hospital
when he died and he has a military headstone. It's a possibility that his burial and headstone was
through the Canadian military.
Wills would be available through Ontario Archives by county. London is Middlesex county.
The explanation is here, then scroll down to Estate Files 1931-1970.
http://www.archives.gov.on.ca/en/microfilm/surrogate_court_middlesex_t.aspx#estate2
DB
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Hello,
There's no mention in the obit of visitation times!
Yes, James was Catholic. Well, as far as I know. He was married in the Catholic Church in Ayr, Scotland!
I beginning to wonder, because of the military hospital & headstone. Could he have been, shall I say, 'down on his luck'! Did the Canadian military run some sort of charitable trust? Was it the norm for anyone who had served in WW1 to be treated in a military hospital later in life?
Thanks for the link for the wills/estates. I think I might leave that for now (as I've a sneaking suspicion that there probably isn't one).
I feel bad asking you good people again but does anyone have access to the online Canadian census.
Reading through James' army papers he arrived back in Montreal in March 1919 so hopefully he would appear in the 1921 census (he was born 1883 Scotland)!
If I can help anyone who has connections to Scotland Im more than happy to try and assist.
Once again many thanks for all the help.
Andrea
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Someone may correct me but I don't believe he would have had to be 'down on his luck' to be cared for at the Westminster military hospital. And it is my understanding that every vet is entitled to have a military headstone.
PB
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PB
So sorry if I have offended you or anyone - it was by no way intentional.
A number of my ancestors/family fought and gave their lives and the few that made it 'home' with both physical and mental scars never received care form a military hospital in later life or have a headstone in the UK!
Badly chosen phrase on my part. Please accept my apology
Andrea
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Goodness, your comments seemed perfectly logical to me. I was in no way offended :).
PB
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Phew, Thank you :)
After asking about a military charitable trust I suddenly remembered something I'd jotted down in connection with another branch of my family (who also ended up in Canada). One of them was also in the Canadian army (WW1) and when he died in the 1950's the funeral home records stated his headstone was ordered by the Last Post Fund!
Does anyone know anything about this fund?
Andrea
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Short answer:
The Last Post is an old, old charity (I think it was created a few years prior to WW1) who's main concern was that every veteran gets a funeral and a headstone, so if a vet passes, and there is no money to pay for that, they paid for the funeral and a military headstone. I don't know if, at it's conception, if the death had to be somewhat a result of military service, as it seems to be today (?):
http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/services/financial/funeral-burial
Last Post has a searchable database for their vets, and any obits that get sent to them, via the Legion Magazine, but this database does not go back far enough for the fellow you are seeking:
https://legionmagazine.com/en/last-post/
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I feel bad asking you good people again but does anyone have access to the online Canadian census.
Reading through James' army papers he arrived back in Montreal in March 1919 so hopefully he would appear in the 1921 census (he was born 1883 Scotland)!
Nah, don't feel bad, ask away, keeps us off the streets and out of trouble. ;D
I did have a look for James on the 1921 census, but no luck. I also checked the 1911 just in case.
Cheers,
DB
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bbart,
Thank you for that. Do you think it's worth me contacting LPF to see if they still possess any records? I don't know if they provided any assistance for my man but they could be worth a try!
dbree,
Oh you so might regret saying that. I'm getting the list ready now ;D ;D LOL
Thank you for having a look.
This man is such a mystery. So frustrating.
I know he abandoned (harsh but true) his wife Sarah and children 1911, Ayr Scotland and signed his Attestation papers June 1915 in Montreal. Those papers show his wife Lillie (??) as his next of kin.
My question is, would a marriage certificate have to be provided as proof when these papers were signed or was it just accepted?
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I've been watching this thread, but hadn't yet contributed as I've not found anything helpful. But I now have some comments and questions. ;D
Hi,
An interesting note in his military file, a letter dated January 1956 addressed to Director, War
Services stating that an employee of the Windsor Star (newspaper), in Windsor, Ontario found
Jame's discharge certificate while going through old books purchased at an auction sale. It may
mean that he spent time in Windsor, Ontario or the book made it rounds in auction sales in
Ontario.
Cheers,
DB
If he didn't have family in Canada near the time of his passing, perhaps his personal items were given away/donated to a charity or other organization? Or, perhaps he gave his things to a family member/friend and that person eventually gave them away?
Also, could he have lived in the states at some point? Windsor is just a hop away from the states.
...I doubt he actually married Lily as that would make him a bigamist ( but then again nothing would surprise me)...
It wouldn't be the first time this has happened. ;) I've found a few men who left their families and started new ones in a different country (and yes, I do believe they actually married without first getting divorces). We know that one man was even a truly good person, as told to us by children from both families.
I did have a look for James on the 1921 census, but no luck. I also checked the 1911 just in case.
Cheers,
DB
I also looked - it's odd that he has not yet been found. Was he intentionally trying to hid his identity? :-\ Or, could the census images have been difficult to read? Was he moving around quite a bit? Did he return to the UK for short stays or move to the states, looking for work? :-\
I've now discovered a James Lawson in the Canadian WW1 Attestation papers, signing up in Montreal.
He states that his birth date is 18/03/1884 born Ayr, Scotland and is a Plasterer.
I was just looking through the Montreal directories again, and finally found him in the 1916-1917 directory (I didn't see his name in the 1914-15 nor 1915-16 directories).
1916-1917 Montreal Directory (and 1917-18)
Lawson, Jas plasterer 484 Moreau
http://bibnum2.banq.qc.ca/bna/lovell/
He doesn't appear to be in the 1918-19 directory, unless he changed his address and possibly his occupation.
Perhaps you could have a look at later (or earlier) directories for any additional clues?
I'm looking forward to reading about what else is discovered. :)
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If you've not used the above link before, this might help:
Click on Montreal et sa banlieue
Serie principale
The desired year of publication
Alphabetical directory
The correct alphabetical range for Lawson
I hope this helps. ;)
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Great find, Lisa in California!
When you find the page you want in the directory, click on 'affichage plein ecran' at the top to bring up the full page.
Quite a fiddly website but a real gold mine once you get used to it.
I have also come up blank with the 1921 census.
PB
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Thank you, PB. I'm just trying to contribute to the great work by everyone here. ;D
Looking at James' military file, it's not much, but next of kin was
Lawson, Mrs. Lily K. (452 Morlau? St., Hochelaga, Montreal)
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In reference to his military file there is at least one image that shows:
Name and Address, Next-of-Kin: Mrs. Lily Lawson; 484 Moran(?) Street, City Montreal. Moran is crossed out with Moreau written in.
Relationship: Wife (typed)
Married or Single: Single (typed), lined out with Married (handwritten above)
Why did they type Wife and Single (then later change it to Married)? :-\
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In 1919, his address was recorded as 452 Moreau Street, Montreal, PQ
I wonder if he claimed he was married so that his wife could receive his benefits or if he actually did marry her? :-\
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I notice that he had siblings. Have you tried to look for any of them sailing to North America (possibly to visit James)?
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Hello again,
Well, what can I say, I'm just blown away by how helpful you all are, thank you!
Lisa, thank you for the link to the directories. Will probably be up all night trawling through this ;D
Your mention of James' siblings got me thinking. So I got the file out containing every scrap of info, jotting etc I've collected over the years on the Lawson family. I've got a (poor) copy of a New York ships passenger list sent to me by another kind soul some years ago.
At the bottom of the page is James Lawson. All the info fits my man. He's going to his brother Robert in Brooklyn. Unfortunately, I havent a date on this but I think in the age column it says 23 so it could be 1906/7. He got married in Scotland 1909.
I also have a copy of the monumental inscription taken from the headstone on the family plot in Ayr Cemetery. Parents and all siblings are on there apart from James!! It includes Robert who died 6th January 1928 but it doesn't say where!
I wonder if Robert stayed in the US and James would sometimes visit him?
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Is his name at the very bottom, or near the bottom? I can have a look for it. I was looking earlier, hoping to find a passenger list for a James and Lillie Lawson, but didn't look extensively as some of the images were of somewhat poor quality. (There were a number of men with the same name and born within a few years of your James who sailed to North America in the early 1900s.) Also, are you quite sure that his middle name was Tierney, please? Thank you, Lisa
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Actually, are you able to see the l"No. on List", please? The number is right before his name. Knowing the number could speed up the search. ;D
Actually, if you are able to see the ship name, that would be even better. Thank you, Lisa
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For some reason, I cannot view the image, and perhaps this is just a coincidence, but I did see the following on a pay site:
Massachusetts passenger/crew list
Lilly Sandeman, age 29, born c1882, Ceres, Scotland.
Departed Glasgow, Scotland on board the Parisian arriving Boston, Massachusetts 7 May 1911.
Last residence: England
Friend: James Lawson
May I ask, please, when James was last "seen" in Scotland?
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https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3A%22james%20tierney%22~%20%2Bsurname%3Alawson~
James Tarney Lawson
I think the Lily Sandeman's relationship to James Lawson was niece - it does indicate Uncle James.
Andrew Sandeman married Lily Lawson and had a daughter Lily.
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Somewhere in here you said brother Robert had his name on the family headstone, but didn't know where he died. Although the date is out by one day, I think this is him (from the index at Familysearch, no image):
Name Robert Lawson
Event Type Death
Event Date 05 Jan 1928
Event Place Brooklyn, Kings, New York, United States
Gender Male
Age 54
Marital Status Single
Race White
Occupation Carpenter
Birth Year (Estimated) 1874
Birthplace Scotland
Burial Date 09 Jan 1928
Cemetery Linden Hill Cem.
Father's Name Robert
Father's Birthplace Scotland
Mother's Name Christina ...Nan
Mother's Birthplace Scotland
So when James went across the border as Cosmac found, it wasn't to visit Robert.
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I've got a (poor) copy of a New York ships passenger list sent to me by another kind soul some years ago.
At the bottom of the page is James Lawson. All the info fits my man. He's going to his brother Robert in Brooklyn. Unfortunately, I havent a date on this but I think in the age column it says 23 so it could be 1906/7
SS Caledonia sailing from Glasgow 16 June 1906 arriving New York 24 June 1906
James Lawson, age 23, single, plasterer, born Ayr, going to brother Robert Lawson at 407 Berry St Brooklyn
Column asking if ever been in the USA before says yes, Brooklyn, 1903 (or maybe 1905, a tail from a letter on the line above runs over the final digit)
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Yes, yes, yes :D :D :D
This is James on the SS Caledonia and the Robert Lawson in the Familysearch index is the correct one. Their parents were Robert Lawson & Christina Tierney (which has been transcribed in various forms including Tarney)!
Oh my goodness Lisa! Lily Sandeman! This is looking hopeful.
James' wife Sarah appears in the 'poorhouse' records (along with 2 children and pregnant with another) September 1910. The baby (named James) was born there January 1911 so James senior probably upped and left sometime between April-September 1910.
I think I need to look at Lily Lawson who is the wife of Andrew Sandeman to check the family connection. Surely James wouldn't marry his niece?? However, if he did, it could have taken place in either the U.S. or Canada between 1911 - 1915.
It's defininately him in Detroit (correct birth date and place) wonder what he was doing there?
I've ordered his death certificate to see if it gives me any further info.
This is so exciting. Thank you all so much.
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Hi,
Perhaps this is his Windsor connection, one record from Canada Voters Lists 1940, Essex (Windsor)
Ontario. There are about 20 other listed with him. Must have been some kind of lodging/apartment
house.
Lawson, James, plasterer, 349 Chatham St. East.
Fancy looking through some more directories, :P Windsor directories are here. I checked from 1940
onwards, and there are 2 possibles. 1941 Lawson, Jas. rms. Pitt w., and 1944 Lawson, Jas. r.
239 Church St.
http://scholar.uwindsor.ca/windsor-directories/
DB
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Aw, thank you dbree. I will take a look.
This looks like it's him though, doesn't it?
I wonder what happened to Lillie?
I've been looking for a family connection between James & Lillie and as yet I haven't found one!
Andrea
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I don't think the Lily Sandeman discussed earlier is the one you are looking for. From the image, she is about the same age as your James, but going to an uncle James K. Lawson who lived at 210 W 69th St., New York. She makes multiple trips to New York, and is still a Sandeman in 1915 when she visits her brother in New York. Her father lives in Dundee, and she lived in London. I can't rule her out, but she doesn't seem to fit?
James and Sarah were married in 1909, so I am assuming the two other children in the workhouse were not James?
I have been trying to track all of James' siblings/parents in case they have an obit that mentions your James, and having no luck. However, I did find that there is one more sibling missing from the gravestone, and that is Helen. (Just mentioning that in case you didn't know about her..... I found some info (husband and children) on her if you need it.) Also the family gravestone mentions a Duncan.... I came across the most saddest article ever on his death, if you need that.
Jame's father Robert: he was not with the family in 1901 and Christina was working, and I can't find a good match in the 1911 census. Do you know what he was up to until his death in 1930? (There are so many Lawsons, I am just wondering if I should be looking for an obit outside of Ayr, or maybe I am looking at the wrong family in 1901?)
Just for reference, family gravestone: https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=168833201
(Note to Lisa: Hi! If you were found that Lily Sandeman on Anc. and were taken to the totally wrong image, it's not image 262, it's 392 (page 2) and 393 (page 1) that you need. ::) )
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Aargh! I'm so confused lol!
I'm sure (but not 100%, I need to check) that in James' Attestation papers one of the pages shows his next of kin as Lily K Lawson????
It's a bit of a tale regarding the children. Basically, there were two daughters born before marriage (no fathers name on the birth certificates). One is named Christina which makes me think James could be the father. Then, two sons were born after the marriage (both James'). So, two of the children in the workhouse are definitely James' and one is possibly his. Another reason that leads me to believe Christina was James' is that a few years ago I found out that she was adopted by a relative of James' on his mothers side!
The other daughter,Sarah. I've never found what happened to her, no death, nothing! I do wonder if she was also adopted.
Sorry, my mistake about the siblings on the gravestone. Yes, Helen is also missing. I know she married James McKenzie 1901 Ayr and had a daughter Christina but I don't know anything else.
Please could you send me the article on Duncan.
Robert Lawson was boarding at 9 Portland St Kilmarnock in 1901 (I presume because he was working in the area). He's back in Ayr in 1911 - 61 Sandgate Ayr - with his daughter Grace Ferrier.
I don't have anything for Christina in 1911.
From 1913-14 the family had the Queens Hotel, South Harbour St, Ayr.
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No confusion allowed! ;D
James' attestion does state a spouse of Lillie; I was just saying I don't think it's the Lillie Sandeman one, as after tracking her around, she just didn't "fit" well. I think you need to stay open to looking at any other Lillie's come along.
Bits on Helen: http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/people/people_report_view.asp?REF_ID=NM274778
And sadly now, the very depressing article from the Daily Record, 13 Sept 1915:
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Hi,
Just trying to think of ways to find out just who Lillie was and what happened to her ??? ::)
Thank you so much for the link on Helen ( going to find out what happened there )!
What a tragic end for Duncan......and so young! Such a sad article. Really grateful for you finding all these items.
Andrea