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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: SHUSHIE on Saturday 26 August 17 19:52 BST (UK)
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I really need help with this Alan Neill is on the birth cert I will send an attachment of this his number given does not come up has him but someone else? Its possible her was a POW or Killed he came from Islington London Its like looking for a needle in a haystack anyone know of him or info would be much appreciated
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anyone who can make out all the writing would help too
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anyone who can make out all the writing would help too
Looks like:
Private
224240
Royal Army
Service Corps
( ) can't make this out
46, Marlborough Road
Islington
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Groom has it, I think the missing word is "Electrician", RASC did its own repairs before REME was formed.
His number won't come up on line as he is a WW2 soldier, their records are all with MOD still.
MaxD
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Are you looking for information about him before or after he was named on the certificate?
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Are you looking for information about him before or after he was named on the certificate?
I am looking for him after 1942 which is what date the cert is
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In that case you will have to apply for his records (assuming he is deceased?)
https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records
MaxD
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Do you have his date of birth and marriage - who is the mother on the certificate? That might help to make sure that you are tracing the correct person.
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Do you have his date of birth and marriage - who is the mother on the certificate? That might help to make sure that you are tracing the correct person.
No unfortunately the lady I am researching for only has this birth cert
Mother is Margaret Hanalin Milroy
Father has I have stated I know Margaret went on to marry a Carl Colson from USA a Pilot in 1948 I have the marriage cert for them but No father added for Margaret just a strike, I think she went to USA with him after the war? I can find no marriage for her to this Allan Neill, the baby was abandoned and was in a hospital/home in Scotland yet was born in Islington London she says by the Red Cross? this lady was not adopted but was brought up by another man and woman who already had a daughter, I suspect Milroy is a Scottish name? There was a lady who appearently came to get her (the lady I am researching) I suspect grandmother? but she couldn't provide details of a stable home to take the child so she remained with the couple she grew up with, It makes me think this Allan was killed during the war and she was left holding the baby so to speak and her family turned there backs on her because of it, so she had to give her up? This was in 1942 any ideas would be helpful I have emailed a few places war babies birth link and such to find out if there is any more info, Allan Neill may have been for USA or wherever? TIA for anyone who can help....I will give his details to the MOD 2 morrow see what comes up
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Groom has it, I think the missing word is "Electrician", RASC did its own repairs before REME was formed.
His number won't come up on line as he is a WW2 soldier, their records are all with MOD still.
MaxD
Thank you ...or engineer? I will take your advice and contact your suggestion again thank you
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the baby was abandoned and was in a hospital/home in Scotland yet was born in Islington London she says by the Red Cross? this lady was not adopted but was brought up by another man and woman who already had a daughter, I suspect Milroy is a Scottish name? There was a lady who appearently came to get her (the lady I am researching) I suspect grandmother? but she couldn't provide details of a stable home to take the child so she remained with the couple she grew up with,
She may have been in foster care, but adoptions became legal in England & Wales in 1926, and in Scotland in 1930.
Private adoptions were no longer possible after these dates.
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There is no war death record for an Alan Neill.
MaxD
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There is no war death record for an Alan Neill.
MaxD
Can I ask how do you know? is it the right Neill? and was he USA?
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the baby was abandoned and was in a hospital/home in Scotland yet was born in Islington London she says by the Red Cross? this lady was not adopted but was brought up by another man and woman who already had a daughter, I suspect Milroy is a Scottish name? There was a lady who appearently came to get her (the lady I am researching) I suspect grandmother? but she couldn't provide details of a stable home to take the child so she remained with the couple she grew up with,
could she have been allowed to be fostered all that time without adoption? she states never adopted or could the people fostering be related in some way? and would there be any records do you think?
She may have been in foster care, but adoptions became legal in England & Wales in 1926, and in Scotland in 1930.
Private adoptions were no longer possible after these dates.
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I know Margaret went on to marry a Carl Colson from USA a Pilot in 1948 I have the marriage cert for them but No father added for Margaret just a strike,
If she married as Milroy, that probably means that she didn't marry Alan Neill, otherwise she would have been down as Margaret Neill formerly Milroy. What status does it give - single or widowed?
What is a bit odd though is the baby was given her father's surname and his name, occupation and address are on the certificate. As I understand it, unless the parents were married, from 1875 the reputed father had to be present at the registration to consent to his name being added. Maybe this lapsed during the war? Margaret seems very definite about the father's information, even giving his service number.
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There is no war death record for an Alan Neill.
MaxD
Can I ask how do you know? is it the right Neill? and was he USA?
I expect that Max checked the Commonwealth War Graves Commission site, he doesn't appear on that so is unlikely to have died in the war. http://www.cwgc.org/
Why do you think he was from the USA if he served in the RASC?
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I know Margaret went on to marry a Carl Colson from USA a Pilot in 1948 I have the marriage cert for them but No father added for Margaret just a strike,
If she married as Milroy, that probably means that she didn't marry Alan Neill, otherwise she would have been down as Margaret Neill formerly Milroy. What status does it give - single or widowed?
What is a bit odd though is the baby was given her father's surname and his name, occupation and address are on the certificate. As I understand it, unless the parents were married, from 1875 the reputed father had to be present at the registration to consent to his name being added. Maybe this lapsed during the war? Margaret seems very definite about the father's information, even giving his service number.
Hi on the birth mother registered the child but had all this info of the dad he was probably away in service? but sounds like she really loved him to give the info and was proud he was the dad weather married or not? her marriage to Colson states Margaret H Colson Milroy Neill that's how I found her so quick without dates it has to be her? perhaps she told the man Colson she was Married to Neill but he was Killed? but I have searched and search can find no marriage for her and Neill there is a lot of secrecy involved in my opinion and her child was a secret she married Colson in 48 her child was born in 42 the time span of giving birth to marrying I doubt the man Colson knew she had this child Perhaps Neill never returned (I know many didn't during the war) Someone on here reading this (sorry I can not think who) said he wasn't killed in the war? Its heart breaking for the lady I am researching for IMO she wonders if this Neill had kids I know her mum had a child with Colson yet to find her but wonder if he went on to marry and have kids they would be my ladies siblings
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Looks as if there is a lot of confusion over her name - just look at the different ways it was recorded on FreeBMD! That shows that she was calling herself Colson before her marriage to Carl and had also been known as Neill.
Marriages Mar 1948
Colson Carl C Colson Surrey Mid.E.
Colson Carl C Neill Surrey Mid.E.
Colson Carl C Milroy Surrey Mid.E.
Colson Margaret H Colson Surrey Mid.E.
Milroy Margaret H Colson Surrey Mid.E.
Neill Margaret H Colson Surrey Mid.E. 5g 722
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I know her mum had a child with Colson yet to find her but wonder if he went on to marry and have kids they would be my ladies siblings
I'll PM you the name of that child as she was born in 1946, before the marriage to Carl. I can't name her here as she could well still be alive, but you can find her on FreeBMD.
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There is a marriage for this child in Islington in 1966 - also on FreeBMD.
EDIT: following later posts this probably isn't the same person, especially if the family went to America.
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I'm wondering where the 'Hanalin' in the mothers name was actually Handlin as there is a birth in Scotland 1923 Maybole (Ayrshire) and another in 1928 with same place and if she was illegitimate the later entry could be something to do with 1923 birth.
Also, can you please confirm the Christian name of the father - your topic is headed 'Alan' but you refer to him later as 'Allan'. If the latter, there are births in Scotland with this name in similar time frame so the father may have been Scottish too.
Annette
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There were 2 births for someone with the name you are referring to, groom - one born Sept.1946 with maiden name Milroy in Wandsworth but another with same birth name born Dec.1945 Islington (different mother). The marriage in Islington probably relates to the child born there 1945.
I note that the man whom Margaret married was named Carl C. Colson - wondering if he was the Carl Clayton Colson born 15/6/1919 Florida who died and buried 1/11/1962 Arlington Cemetery, VA. I note from FindaGrave that his wife buried with him (she died 25/12/1999 and interred with him 10/7/2000. She is shown as Marga H. Colson - could this be some corruption of her name? Her birthdate is given as 19/4/1923 and can't help wondering if this is the birthdate of the Margaret Handli. Milroy born 1923 Maybole, Scotland.
Annette
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She is shown as Marga H. Colson - could this be some corruption of her name? Her birthdate is given as 19/4/1923 and can't help wondering if this is the birthdate of the Margaret Handli. Milroy born 1923 Maybole, Scotland.
I would think that is the same person, too much of a coincidence for it not to be!
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There were 2 births for someone with the name you are referring to, groom - one born Sept.1946 with maiden name Milroy in Wandsworth but another with same birth name born Dec.1945 Islington (different mother). The marriage in Islington probably relates to the child born there 1945.
I note that the man whom Margaret married was named Carl C. Colson - wondering if he was the Carl Clayton Colson born 15/6/1919 Florida who died and buried 1/11/1962 Arlington Cemetery, VA. I note from FindaGrave that his wife buried with him (she died 25/12/1999 and interred with him 10/7/2000. She is shown as Marga H. Colson - could this be some corruption of her name? Her birthdate is given as 19/4/1923 and can't help wondering if this is the birthdate of the Margaret Handli. Milroy born 1923 Maybole, Scotland.
Annette
It looks like the same people it is too much of a coincident thanks for that .....
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I'm wondering where the 'Hanalin' in the mothers name was actually Handlin as there is a birth in Scotland 1923 Maybole (Ayrshire) and another in 1928 with same place and if she was illegitimate the later entry could be something to do with 1923 birth.
Also, can you please confirm the Christian name of the father - your topic is headed 'Alan' but you refer to him later as 'Allan'. If the latter, there are births in Scotland with this name in similar time frame so the father may have been Scottish too.
Annette
No Sorry It is Allan with 2 LLs
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I know her mum had a child with Colson yet to find her but wonder if he went on to marry and have kids they would be my ladies siblings
I'll PM you the name of that child as she was born in 1946, before the marriage to Carl. I can't name her here as she could well still be alive, but you can find her on FreeBMD.
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There were 2 births for someone with the name you are referring to, groom - one born Sept.1946 with maiden name Milroy in Wandsworth but another with same birth name born Dec.1945 Islington (different mother). The marriage in Islington probably relates to the child born there 1945.
I note that the man whom Margaret married was named Carl C. Colson - wondering if he was the Carl Clayton Colson born 15/6/1919 Florida who died and buried 1/11/1962 Arlington Cemetery, VA. I note from FindaGrave that his wife buried with him (she died 25/12/1999 and interred with him 10/7/2000. She is shown as Marga H. Colson - could this be some corruption of her name? Her birthdate is given as 19/4/1923 and can't help wondering if this is the birthdate of the Margaret Handli. Milroy born 1923 Maybole, Scotland.
Annette
Hi Just wondering why she was Interred with him 7 months later? could she have died somewhere else and transferred there ? I have noticed this a war cemetery and the time he died around Vietnam war? also how easy would it be to get a death cert for Margaret with it being USA and I am in UK? I am hoping the death cert would have next of kin who buried her on it But I am not sure never dealt with USA deaths before any ideas? TIA
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Here's the headstone in case you haven't found it. It sounds from that as if he was still in the army when he died. He wasn't just an ordinary soldier!
https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=8779724
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He was a Lt. Col. when he died on 1/11/1962 (don't know where this was) and buried 6/11/1962 at Arlington.
Wife Marga H. Colson actually died in Dearbon, Wayne, Michigan but I have absolutely no idea how you'd purchase a death certificate.
Have just found her arrival at New York on 3/4/1948 which confirms her birthdate of 19/4/1923, that she was born in Maybole, Scotland, and that she was joining her husband - at that time intended place of residence was Phoenix, Arizona. Her next of kin in Scotland is given as Mrs. G. McLure, Middle Norton, Newbridge, Mid Lothian who is shown as 'mother'.
Annette
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Have just found her arrival at New York on 3/4/1948 which confirms her birthdate of 19/4/1923, that she was born in Maybole, Scotland, and that she was joining her husband - at that time intended place of residence was Phoenix, Arizona. Her next of kin in Scotland is given as Mrs. G. McLure, Middle Norton, Newbridge, Mid Lothian who is shown as 'mother'.
Annette
Is the daughter born 1946 with her? If she gives her mother as McLure, we either have the wrong person ( which I doubt) as her maiden name was Milroy, or her mother remarried.
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Hi,
Lt Col Carl Clayton Colson & his wife Marga Helene Colson are both listed here: http://files.usgwarchives.net/va/arlington/cemeteries/arlington-col-con.txt
Surname: Colson
Given Name: Carl
Middle Name: Clayton
Suffix:
DOB: 06/15/1919 (15th June 1919)
DOD: 11/01/1962 (1st Nov 1962)
Branch: US Air Force
Rank: LtCol
Sec: 2
Row: 0
Site: 3696 RH
Interment Date: 11/06/1962 (6th Nov 1962)
Surname: Colson
Given Name: Marga
Middle Name: Helene
Suffix:
DOB: 04/19/1923 (19th April 1923)
DOD: 12/25/1999 (25th Dec 1999)
Branch: US Army
Rank: Pvt (Private)
Sec: 2
Row: 0
Site: 3696 RH
Interment Date: 07/10/2000 (10th Jul 2000)
It would appear therefore that she was in the US Army with the rank of Private.
Hope this helps.
Kind regards
David
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That seems strange doesn't it that she was in the army? She would have been 25 when she arrived in the USA and married with a child ( unless she left the child in the UK). She certainly wouldn't have needed to work in later life if he was a Lt. Col would she? Could it just be a rank granted to her so they could be buried together?
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Hi,
Carl Clayton Colson also appears to be mentioned here: https://archive.org/stream/airforceregister1957wash/airforceregister1957wash_djvu.txt
I am not exactly sure as to what info is on the above site, as my computer struggles to load up the site (because my machine is so old and slow! ::))
Jan, your right it is a bit strange, I believe that you could well be right as to a rank being created so that they could be buried together.
Hope this helps.
Kind regards
David
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Jan, your right it is a bit strange, I believe that you could well be right as to a rank being created so that they could be buried together.
Perhaps that is why there was 6 months between the death and the interment there.
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Doesn't give much information, David just says
COLSON CARL C
13731A
CPT
A
1083
and further down his name again and a whole list of numbers. I'm not sure what they refer to.
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Hi,
There is a U.S. Social Security Applications and Claims Index for Marga.
Marga Colson
[Marga Han Snell]
[Marga Snell]
[Marga Nellier]
b. 19 April 1925, ??? Maybole, United Kingdom, d. 25 December 1999
Father Wilheim C. Nellier
Mother Jean Milroy
Notes: Oct 1951 name listed as Marga Colson, June 1969 as Marga Han Snell, Marga Handling Snell,
15 Jan. 2000 as Marga H. Colson.
Her U.S. Social Security Death Index gives her date of birth as 19 April 1923.
There is a Texas Divorce record for Marga. Marga H. Snell, age 63, marriage date 30 June 1968,
divorce date 24 August 1987, location Tarant, Texas, spouse Rex L. Snell (d. 7 Nov. 1992 California)
number of children 0.
On the 1948 arrival in NY that Annette found, she lists her race as Dutch, and speaks English,
Dutch and German.
DB
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Hi,
I think the PVT notation beside Marga's name means a private internment (non military). Perhaps
the long delay in her burial was because Arlington National Cemetery has the strictest rules of
any cemetery and burials cannot be pre-arranged, only at time of death. Lots of paperwork,
especially as she remarried and divorced.
Lt. Col. Carl Colson and Captain Russell Johansen were killed in a military plane crash on a test
flight in the Catskills, in NY November 1, 1962.
https://www.meetup.com/hvhikers/events/228893284/
From the Schenectedy, New York Gazette, November 2, 1962
Kingston, NY, Nov. 1, Two veteran pilots were killed today when their T-33 Air Force jet trainer crashed and burned in a densely wooded area 30 miles from here. An official at Stewart Air Force Base identified the two pilots as Captain Russell Johansen of Plainsville, Connecticut, father of three and Lieutenant Colonel Carl Colson of Cocoa, Florida, father of two children. The Air Force said both pilots were instructors.
DB
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Hi,
There is an obituary for Marga in the Detroit Free Press, Dec. 28, 1999, snippets only I'm afraid.
2nd one down, and use the arrows to toggle. There is mention of two daughters, a sister or two
and five brothers. :o
https://freep.newspapers.com/search/#query=marga+h.+colson&ymd=1999-12-28
DB
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Hi,
There is a large sheet manifest for the 1948 NY arrival. It is fuzzy and hard to read.
Colson, Carl, age 26, occupation pilot, b. US
Colson, Margaret, age 23, housewife, b. Brit.
Colson, R, (female) age 7, b. Brit.
Colson, C, (female) age 12 months, b. Brit.
Address 65 Buckley Ave, Merton Park
DB
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Hi,
There is a large sheet manifest for the 1948 NY arrival. It is fuzzy and hard to read.
Colson, Carl, age 26, occupation pilot, b. US
Colson, Margaret, age 23, housewife, b. Brit.
Colson, R, (female) age 7, b. Brit.
Colson, C, (female) age 12 months, b. Brit.
Address 65 Buckley Ave, Merton Park
DB
Can not find a birth for the child R Colson? that would make her born in 41, and don't explain why she gave away a child born 42 father Allan Neill?
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Gosh, this woman is a real mystery isn't she, look at all the different names she uses or is known under?
The fact that she uses the maiden name of Milroy looks as if she may have been born out of wedlock as well.
So it now looks as if she remarried after Carl's death, divorced and reverted back to the Coleson name.
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Can not find a birth for the child R Colson? that would make her born in 41, and don't explain why she gave away a child born 42 father Allan Neill?
I can't find a birth either, but it's a bit difficult not knowing the child's first name or where she was registered.
However, could that be why she gave the Neill child away? She was in a relationship with Carl, who was away fighting in the war. She met Allan Neill, a British soldier and had his child, but had her fostered or adopted so that Carl wouldn't know? On his return she had another child with Carl, married him and went to America.
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Can not find a birth for the child R Colson? that would make her born in 41, and don't explain why she gave away a child born 42 father Allan Neill?
I can't find a birth either, but it's a bit difficult not knowing the child's first name or where she was registered.
However, could that be why she gave the Neill child away? She was in a relationship with Carl, who was away fighting in the war. She met Allan Neill, a British soldier and had his child, but had her fostered or adopted so that Carl wouldn't know? On his return she had another child with Carl, married him and went to America.
That sounds likely, according to the newspaper snippet from what I can see the child R is Rosalind? the Child R and the child she gave away were very close in age My lady was 1942 and I think child R was before 41 so she was with Colson 1st so it sounds like she was having a relationship with Allan Neill while Colson was away for certain......
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This could be a complete red herring, but on Googling Carl Colson, this came up
https://www.carlcolsonknives.com/
It's based in Florida where Carl lived, so I wonder if there is any connection as it's an unusual name? Might be worth emailing them and asking?
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Going back to Margaret's arrival in 1948 her mother shown as a Mrs. McClure - just checked SP and a Jeanie McGuffie Milroy married a Walter McClure 1924 Maybole (the year after Margaret's birth).
And now for the object of this thread - Allan Neill - and 'eureka'!!
Margaret Handlin Milroy married said Allan Neill 30/1/1940 Carrington, Midlothian, details as follows:
Allan Neill 22, plumber, of 11 Sanghree (??hard to read) Cottages, Rosewell, son of Allan Neill, coal miner, and Agnes nee Houston
Margaret Handlin Milroy 17, of Edgelaw, Gorebridge, dau. of Jeanie Milroy, afterwards married to Walter McLure, ploughman (fathers details just has a line through it).
Witnesses were a Jessie R G Milroy and Thomas Cooke.
(His parents married in 1917 at Galston (Ayrshire) and as he was 22 in Jan.1940 when he married Margaret he was probably born late that same year - SP shows an Allan Neill birth in 1917 Hamilton (Lanarkshire) which may possibly be him.
Possible birth for a daughter with the Christian name previously mentioned plus initials J.R in 1941 at registration district George Square (Edinburgh).
So, did Allan Neill and Margaret divorce? I can't see any casualty for this name being killed in WW2.
Just checked on SP for a death entry for an Allan Neill bc.1917/8 and there is just one in 2009 Edinburgh Central so possibly him and if the couple did divorce he probably would have remarried too.
Whatever happened, clearly Margaret had care of her firstborn daughter and presumably something happened around/soon after the birth of their 2nd child so without knowing the details don't think we should malign the lady too much. Allan could have deserted her and she simply couldn't cope with a newborn baby and a toddler.
So, at least we now know who Allan Neill was and that he and Margaret had indeed been married.
Annette
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This could be a complete red herring, but on Googling Carl Colson, this came up
https://www.carlcolsonknives.com/
It's based in Florida where Carl lived, so I wonder if there is any connection as it's an unusual name? Might be worth emailing them and asking?
Already done that no reply has yet but It seems they only had 2 daughters? So unless he uses his granfathers name for the business he would be called whoever the girls married?
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That's a brilliant piece of detective work, Annette. So it looks as if Margaret kept her first and third child but was unable to care for the middle one.
It would be lovely if we could trace that child born 1941 who went to America, as she would be a full blood sister to the one born 1942.
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Going back to Margaret's arrival in 1948 her mother shown as a Mrs. McClure - just checked SP and a Jeanie McGuffie Milroy married a Walter McClure 1924 Maybole (the year after Margaret's birth).
And now for the object of this thread - Allan Neill - and 'eureka'!!
Margaret Handlin Milroy married said Allan Neill 30/1/1940 Carrington, Midlothian, details as follows:
Allan Neill 22, plumber, of 11 Sanghree (??hard to read) Cottages, Rosewell, son of Allan Neill, coal miner, and Agnes nee Houston
Margaret Handlin Milroy 17, of Edgelaw, Gorebridge, dau. of Jeanie Milroy, afterwards married to Walter McLure, ploughman (fathers details just has a line through it).
Witnesses were a Jessie R G Milroy and Thomas Cooke.
(His parents married in 1917 at Galston (Ayrshire) and as he was 22 in Jan.1940 when he married Margaret he was probably born late that same year - SP shows an Allan Neill birth in 1917 Hamilton (Lanarkshire) which may possibly be him.
Possible birth for a daughter with the Christian name previously mentioned plus initials J.R in 1941 at registration district George Square (Edinburgh).
So, did Allan Neill and Margaret divorce? I can't see any casualty for this name being killed in WW2.
Just checked on SP for a death entry for an Allan Neill bc.1917/8 and there is just one in 2009 Edinburgh Central so possibly him and if the couple did divorce he probably would have remarried too.
Whatever happened, clearly Margaret had care of her firstborn daughter and presumably something happened around/soon after the birth of their 2nd child so without knowing the details don't think we should malign the lady too much. Allan could have deserted her and she simply couldn't cope with a newborn baby and a toddler.
So, at least we now know who Allan Neill was and that he and Margaret had indeed been married.
Annette
Thank you Annett can I ask where is this info from the marriage of Margaret and Allan so I can send for the marriage cert I cant seem to find the index for it.....
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If you register with Scotlands People and buy credits you can actually see the certificate straight away on line
www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
30 credits will cost you £7.50 and it costs 6 credits to see the certificate, leaving you 24 credits to look for the births of both parties. Much cheaper and quicker than buying certificates in England. ;D
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That's a brilliant piece of detective work, Annette. So it looks as if Margaret kept her first and third child but was unable to care for the middle one.
It would be lovely if we could trace that child born 1941 who went to America, as she would be a full blood sister to the one born 1942.
Something to keep in mind searching in the US is that although she arrived in the US as 'Colson' unless Carl legally adopted her real name was Neill.
Unfortunately, you cannot view the birth certificates of Allan Neill born 1917 or Margaret in 1923 and would have to order the birth certificates via Scotlands People - it costs £12 each. You can view birth certificates before 1917 but not 1917 and after.
Annette
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If you register with Scotlands People and buy credits you can actually see the certificate straight away on line
www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
30 credits will cost you £7.50 and it costs 6 credits to see the certificate, leaving you 24 credits to look for the births of both parties. Much cheaper and quicker than buying certificates in England. ;D
Thank you both so much I have the marriage cert, my lady will be well pleased she has family even blood cousins just wish I could reunite her with a sibling or info on her father fingers crossed.....
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That's a brilliant piece of detective work, Annette. So it looks as if Margaret kept her first and third child but was unable to care for the middle one.
It would be lovely if we could trace that child born 1941 who went to America, as she would be a full blood sister to the one born 1942.
Something to keep in mind searching in the US is that although she arrived in the US as 'Colson' unless Carl legally adopted her real name was Neill.
Unfortunately, you cannot view the birth certificates of Allan Neill born 1917 or Margaret in 1923 and would have to order the birth certificates via Scotlands People - it costs £12 each. You can view birth certificates before 1917 but not 1917 and after.
Annette
I have searched Rosalind Neill/Milroy/Colson in UK can not find her yet on the Boat/plane out of UK to USA it states Brit born, Carol Ann I can find mother Milroy so she is 100% her child with Colson, Is it possible Rosalind was NEVER registered here father not being present? also need to ask either of you if you have any knowledge of babies fostered or adopted or whatever through the Red Cross? during the 2nd WW and why from Islington London to a place in Scotland? what is your opinion or any knowledge of this ...TIA another thing Rosalind what it could be shortened too used later in life?
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I did say earlier that I had found Rosalind's birth - I've been avoiding saying her name as against Rootschat policy as probably still living. details removed by Moderator Whilst you can see the birth entry to view birth certificate you would have to purchase it as a cost of £12.
So, at this point, I would say both the Neill children were indeed the children of Allan Neill - sometime between 1940 and 1942 he joined the army and possibly transferred to a camp in England. Whether Margaret moved too is speculation but she was certainly here when she had the 2nd child. We can only speculate on what happened next but she must have returned to Scotland at some point for the 2nd. child to end up there but I personally doubt Carl Olson was in the picture as early as 1942. For whatever reason she returned to England at some point where she was living as Margaret Olson (per electoral rolls) in 1946/1947 Wandsworth with Jean R.G. Milroy (a witness to her 1st wedding).
We simply can't know or second guess what the situation was - clearly her marriage to Allan Neill broke down but exactly when/why we don't know.
Annette
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Can you PM me this info on Rosalind to keep so I can send for the berth cert to make sure Neill is the dad? It still don't explain why Colson took a child she already had to USA has a family yet left behind the other who was also Neill's that she gave away? don't make sence Colson sounds like a good guy, so confusing
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From the information that we have and from what Annette has found, I would guess something like the following scenario similar to that suggested by Annette:
Both Margaret and Allan are born in Scotland. They marry in January 1940. Margaret is only 17 at the time. Margaret and Allan have the first child R in 1941 in Scotland. It will be interesting to see if Allan is in the army when she is born.
Margaret at least is in London by the birth of her and Allan's second child in 1942, so at 19 she has two children probably under 18 months old. Remember as well that this is in the middle of World War 2 and that London wouldn't be the safest place to be, so perhaps she returned to Scotland for safety. For some reason she couldn't cope with both children and the Red Cross has the baby fostered out.
Allan disappears from the scene - probably not killed in the war but may have been reported missing, or maybe they were just too young and the marriage broke up.
She returns to London with her first child and meets Carl Colson, who was probably stationed in the UK during the war, having a child with him before marrying him and returning to the USA when he goes home.
It could be that her second child was removed from her custody for some reason and that is why she wasn't allowed to reclaim her and take her with them to the UK. Have you tried getting records from the Red Cross to find out what happened?
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There is no need for me to PM you details - all I know is what you yourself can see for free - in statutory births on Scotlands People just enter Neill and Rosalind and it brings up 2 - the first one 1941 will be the one you need and it has a link there for you to order the certificate.
As I said before we just don't know the facts of the situation and making judgments based on the very limited information known is somewhat futile. If the marriage had indeed broken down and she couldn't cope with a toddler and baby on her own perhaps she returned to Scotland in the hope that the Neill's would take the child - who know's? We could hypothesize for ever. It takes a lot for a woman to give up her child so it must have been something pretty traumatic to cause her to do so.
Whatever the cause she kept her eldest child with her and returned to England and then had a relationship with the US Carl Clayton Colson whom she subsequently married. I doubt she ever saw her 2nd daughter again and that taking her to the US with her new husband wasn't a viable option. I don't think they appear in outgoing UK passenger lists because they would have been transported to the US by the US authorities and this was on a US Overseas Aircraft
You say you have her 2nd marriage certificate - does it say that she was divorced or was she claiming to be a widow?
Annette
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From the information that we have and from what Annette has found, I would guess something like the following scenario similar to that suggested by Annette:
Both Margaret and Allan are born in Scotland. They marry in January 1940. Margaret is only 17 at the time. Margaret and Allan have the first child R in 1941 in Scotland. It will be interesting to see if Allan is in the army when she is born.
Margaret at least is in London by the birth of her and Allan's second child in 1942, so at 19 she has two children probably under 18 months old. Remember as well that this is in the middle of World War 2 and that London wouldn't be the safest place to be, so perhaps she returned to Scotland for safety. For some reason she couldn't cope with both children and the Red Cross had her fostered out.
Allan disappears from the scene - probably not killed in the war but may have been reported missing, or maybe they were just too young and the marriage broke up.
She returns to London with her first child and meets Carl Colson, who was probably stationed in the UK during the war, having a child with him before marrying him and returning to the USA when he goes home.
It could be that her second child was removed from her custody for some reason and that is why she wasn't allowed to reclaim her and take her with them to the UK. Have you tried getting records from the Red Cross to find out what happened?
No I haven't I have google Red Cross is there a website to contact nothing is cominup is thee a records office?
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There is no need for me to PM you details - all I know is what you yourself can see for free - in statutory births on Scotlands People just enter Neill and Rosalind and it brings up 2 - the first one 1941 will be the one you need and it has a link there for you to order the certificate.
As I said before we just don't know the facts of the situation and making judgments based on the very limited information known is somewhat futile. If the marriage had indeed broken down and she couldn't cope with a toddler and baby on her own perhaps she returned to Scotland in the hope that the Neill's would take the child - who know's? We could hypothesize for ever. It takes a lot for a woman to give up her child so it must have been something pretty traumatic to cause her to do so.
Whatever the cause she kept her eldest child with her and returned to England and then had a relationship with the US Carl Clayton Colson whom she subsequently married. I doubt she ever saw her 2nd daughter again and that taking her to the US with her new husband wasn't a viable option. I don't think they appear in outgoing UK passenger lists because they would have been transported to the US by the US authorities and this was on a US Overseas Aircraft
You say you have her 2nd marriage certificate - does it say that she was divorced or was she claiming to be a widow?
Annette
She is stated as Widow so she must have know Alan had died so I am presuming he died either in 42 or just after after 42?
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From the information that we have and from what Annette has found, I would guess something like the following scenario similar to that suggested by Annette:
Both Margaret and Allan are born in Scotland. They marry in January 1940. Margaret is only 17 at the time. Margaret and Allan have the first child R in 1941 in Scotland. It will be interesting to see if Allan is in the army when she is born.
Margaret at least is in London by the birth of her and Allan's second child in 1942, so at 19 she has two children probably under 18 months old. Remember as well that this is in the middle of World War 2 and that London wouldn't be the safest place to be, so perhaps she returned to Scotland for safety. For some reason she couldn't cope with both children and the Red Cross has the baby fostered out.
Allan disappears from the scene - probably not killed in the war but may have been reported missing, or maybe they were just too young and the marriage broke up.
She returns to London with her first child and meets Carl Colson, who was probably stationed in the UK during the war, having a child with him before marrying him and returning to the USA when he goes home.
It could be that her second child was removed from her custody for some reason and that is why she wasn't allowed to reclaim her and take her with them to the UK. Have you tried getting records from the Red Cross to find out what happened?
I have just paid for the birth Cert of R 1941 on Scottish people will let you both know if the dad is Neill? really hope so fingers crossed
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I'll be surprised if it isn't as they had only just married.
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Just paid for the birth cert of child R so fingers crossed its a development thanks hun for your help you really are a god send I will let you know if its the one I am looking for sorry didn't know how easy it was on Scottish people to get the birth its terrible on ancestry you have to scroll through hundreds that's why I ask to save it so I am sorry for that thank you.....
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I'll be surprised if it isn't as they had only just married.
It appears 1st and 2nd child were very close together probably 11 months? also can I ask your opinion Groom I think this is Margaret's mum's birth? see attachment I'm going by birth place Marpole
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I'll be surprised if it isn't as they had only just married.
It appears 1st and 2nd child were very close together probably 11 months? also can I ask your opinion Groom I think this is Margaret's mum's birth? see attachment I'm going by birth place Maypole
it looks like dad Journeyman?
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That would only be Margaret's mother's birth if her mother was also illegitimate wouldn't it? If Margaret was a Milroy and her parents were married her mother's maiden name wouldn't be Milroy.
You need to get Margaret's birth certificate which would give her parents' names.
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That would only be Margaret's mother's birth if her mother was also illegitimate wouldn't it? If Margaret was a Milroy and her parents were married her mother's maiden name wouldn't be Milroy.
You need to get Margaret's birth certificate which would give her parents' names.
Margarets dad is not stated on any of the marriages she had so I don't think he was stated whoever he was? so without a clue to his name it would be impossible but I think this is the mother not everyone got married back then...
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Interesting that on her entry to the US, Margaret gives her race as Dutch and says she speaks Dutch and German as well as English. She states at one point that her father is Wilheim C. Nellier, so it seems she did know who her father was. Her mother married a year after her birth, but not to Wilheim so how did she learn Dutch and German - did she keep in touch with her father?
This is turning out to be a complicated and interesting family.
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Interesting that on her entry to the US, Margaret gives her race as Dutch and says she speaks Dutch and German as well as English. She states at one point that her father is Wilheim C. Nellier, so it seems she did know who her father was. Her mother married a year after her birth, but not to Wilheim so how did she learn Dutch and German - did she keep in touch with her father?
This is turning out to be a complicated and interesting family.
My opinion is the name Nellier could be a play on the name Neill the man she married in 1940 Wilheim a play on the name William? and C thrown in for good measure she obviously had a strange dialect has she was probably half Scottish? did she have a Scottish accent or a broken one? at the time 1948 going 2 the USA emigrating you would have to give has much info of parents where you came from ect because of the war she may have lied I think she made it up was she fluent in Dutch and German? or just knew a few words? yet English, perhaps Carl Colson Pilot could speak German and Dutch and taught her? he would have been posted in both places during the war Its only an assumption but I can find no marriage for her mum except to Mclure on the marriage cert of Margaret and Neill in 1940 perhaps Margaret was of different ethinic background?
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I'll be surprised if it isn't as they had only just married.
It appears 1st and 2nd child were very close together probably 11 months? also can I ask your opinion Groom I think this is Margaret's mum's birth? see attachment I'm going by birth place Marpole
This lady was born 1911 - Margaret was born 1923 which would make her only 12 when Margaret born????? Don't think this is the one.
In frustration I purchased some credits for SP myself - as mentioned earlier on, Margaret's mother was Jeanie McGuffie Milroy - found her in births index as born in 1900 and duly looked at certificate: she was born 23/4/1900 in Glenluce, Wigtownshire, dau. of George Milroy, ploughman and Margaret Morrow Milroy, nee Handling married 14/12/1899.
I should say 'welcome' to the vagaries of Scottish research. Whilst their certificates include far more information I should also point out that Christian names (more especially the womens) had a number of variants so on the census, for example, it can often be different to what you expect. A classic one is Jeanie - it can also be Jean, Jane, Janet! My own Scottish grandmother was born as Jeanie, known as Jean in her family, and Jane by her husband. (Another classic is Margaret who can also be Meg, Maggie).
Anyway, Jeanie McGuffie Milroy married Walter McClure 1924 (again, as already mentioned) but her death is registered as plain Jean McClure - she died 13/3/1957 Dailly, Ayr, certificate confirms names of her parents, that she was widow of Walter McClure and the informant was a John Armstrong, brother in law.
Found her on 1901 census in Inch, Wigtownshire aged 8 months as Janet McGuffie Milroy (see what I mean about names?).
If the details given for Margaret's Dutch father are untrue she must have had a very vivid imagination! Will be interesting to see if his name is included on her birth certificate - sometimes they say 'reputed father' but who knows with this one?
Annette
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Well done again, Annette, so now we know where the Handling part of Margaret's name came from. I should have noticed the date on that other certificate, but I got caught up with trying to explain it was unlikely as it was a Milroy!
I think Shushie problaby needs to print out this thread and go through it carefully as there is a lot of information here about 3 different families.
The puzzle now is what happened to Allan Neill, did he die between 1942 and her second marriage as Margaret claimed, or did he just disappear? If that is the case, it doesn't look as if they divorced or that would be on the second marriage certificate. So did Margaret make a bigamous second marriage?
This is on the WW2 thread so perhaps someone knows - is every one who was killed fighting named on the CWGC site, or are there others, perhaps who were listed as missing presumed dead, who were never found? If so maybe Allan was one of those.
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Since a search of Allan Neill born 1917/1918 in births on SP reveals just one in 1917, and likewise in deaths just one who died 2009 aged 91 in Edinburgh I can't help wondering if this is the same person and the Allan Neill being searched for here! If it was the same person and death registered by a family member could his family have the answers as to what happened (assuming here, of course, that it was 'our' man). We keep coming back to more questions than answers!
Certainly, if Margaret's husband had been reported as 'missing in action' this could be the traumatic event that caused her to return to Scotland after the birth of 2nd child and how said child ended up in care especially if the Red Cross were involved. But we just don't know the actual details, do we (only that the event happened and that the child was ultimately raised by non-family)?
Annette
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I agree, that is the problem, too many questions and no obvious way to find the answers.
If the Allan who died in 2009 is the same one, he must have returned at the end of the war in 1945, so why didn't he and Margaret get back together. The fact that she isn't down as a divorcee is also puzzling if that is the case.
As I see it, there may be a couple of ways to answer this a) find his war records, apply for them and see what they say or b) follow up the death of the 2009 one and try and make contact to see if it is the same person. Also if we could find the family of Carl Colson in the US, they may just know what happened as well.
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I agree, that is the problem, too many questions and no obvious way to find the answers.
If the Allan who died in 2009 is the same one, he must have returned at the end of the war in 1945, so why didn't he and Margaret get back together. The fact that she isn't down as a divorcee is also puzzling if that is the case.
As I see it, there may be a couple of ways to answer this a) find his war records, apply for them and see what they say or b) follow up the death of the 2009 one and try and make contact to see if it is the same person. Also if we could find the family of Carl Colson in the US, they may just know what happened as well.
Just gone over the marriage cert it was difficult to read but states looking at it closely obtained a divorce so she did indeed divorce Allan Neill sometime between 42 and 48 but I haven't found the divorce would she have to go back to Scotland to obtain a divorce? having been married there
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I agree, that is the problem, too many questions and no obvious way to find the answers.
If the Allan who died in 2009 is the same one, he must have returned at the end of the war in 1945, so why didn't he and Margaret get back together. The fact that she isn't down as a divorcee is also puzzling if that is the case.
As I see it, there may be a couple of ways to answer this a) find his war records, apply for them and see what they say or b) follow up the death of the 2009 one and try and make contact to see if it is the same person. Also if we could find the family of Carl Colson in the US, they may just know what happened as well.
Just gone over the marriage cert it was difficult to read but states looking at it closely obtained a divorce so she did indeed divorce Allan Neill sometime between 42 and 48 but I haven't found the divorce would she have to go back to Scotland to obtain a divorce? having been married there
Plus Allan Neill would have married again and probably had more children if he survived the war
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I agree, that is the problem, too many questions and no obvious way to find the answers.
If the Allan who died in 2009 is the same one, he must have returned at the end of the war in 1945, so why didn't he and Margaret get back together. The fact that she isn't down as a divorcee is also puzzling if that is the case.
As I see it, there may be a couple of ways to answer this a) find his war records, apply for them and see what they say or b) follow up the death of the 2009 one and try and make contact to see if it is the same person. Also if we could find the family of Carl Colson in the US, they may just know what happened as well.
Just gone over the marriage cert it was difficult to read but states looking at it closely obtained a divorce so she did indeed divorce Allan Neill sometime between 42 and 48 but I haven't found the divorce would she have to go back to Scotland to obtain a divorce? having been married there
No. :-\
I first married in Bristol, and got my divorce in the Isle of Man - which is a separate Legal Jurisdiction from England & Wales.
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Little bit more about Carl Clayton Colson for interest.
According to the 1940 census his father was Carl Colson born 1893 and his mother was Georgia May born 1896.
In his will draft that was drawn up when he enlisted, his birth was 15th June 1919 and he enlisted 16th October 1940. His occupation was a student. He weighed 125 lb, was 5ft 4 inches tall, had a ruddy complexion, grey eyes and brown hair.
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What a fascinating story this is!
A free search on Scotlandspeople website shows the marriage of Allan to Margaret in 1940. It also
shows a marriage of an Allan Neill in 1949, in the same general area of the country as the first marriage. Also, births of several children, one in 1949 and other "possibles" later, judging by one of the names and also the areas in which they were registered.
Of course, we're now at a point in time where his wife might still be alive and some/all of the children are probably alive, so I have left out names.
More interesting by the minute!!!
A
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Just a quick question when you are given a service number in WW2 will that number stay with you through your service? has the number given on the name of father Allan Neill and service number keeps popping up has a different person with that number also British in the British Army? If anyone knows about the service numbers I would be gratefull.......
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Just a quick question when you are given a service number in WW2 will that number stay with you through your service? has the number given on the name of father Allan Neill and service number keeps popping up has a different person with that number also British in the British Army? If anyone knows about the service numbers I would be gratefull.......
You mentioned this before and on page 1 of this thread MaxD explained that WW2 records are not available online as still with the MOD. If you are entering the service number that's on the birth certificate in a search of army records online (Ancestry or FindMyPast) any result is relating to WW1 not WW2.
As to the divorce which was obviously between 1942 and 1948 (again, no details are available online) it could have been in Scotland or England.
Annette
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Just a quick question when you are given a service number in WW2 will that number stay with you through your service? has the number given on the name of father Allan Neill and service number keeps popping up has a different person with that number also British in the British Army? If anyone knows about the service numbers I would be gratefull.......
You mentioned this before and on page 1 of this thread MaxD explained that WW2 records are not available online as still with the MOD. If you are entering the service number that's on the birth certificate in a search of army records online (Ancestry or FindMyPast) any result is relating to WW1 not WW2.
As to the divorce which was obviously between 1942 and 1948 (again, no details are available online) it could have been in Scotland or England.
Annette
The reason I asked again is because I have joined Forces War Records and info of soldiers in WW2 are availably to access all with service numbers?......
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Hmmm - maybe not a good move?
Nearly all of the records on Forces War Records are available on other websites.
And WW2 Service Records are ONLY available via the MOD.
There are opinions here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=713127.0
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Does Forces War Records have a forum, if so it might be worth asking on there. According to one site
. The British Army was renumbered in 1920. All soldiers were given a unique 7 digit number which remained with them throughout their service career. It is this number that you need when applying for a post 1920 Service Record.
It could be that if Margaret gave the information that she got one number wrong, or perhaps it was written down incorrectly. Do you have the original birth certificate or a copy?
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Does Forces War Records have a forum, if so it might be worth asking on there. According to one site
. The British Army was renumbered in 1920. All soldiers were given a unique 7 digit number which remained with them throughout their service career. It is this number that you need when applying for a post 1920 Service Record.
It could be that if Margaret gave the information that she got one number wrong, or perhaps it was written down incorrectly. Do you have the original birth certificate or a copy?
Copy sent for in 1988 theres is a snippet with the number on this thread
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Does Forces War Records have a forum, if so it might be worth asking on there. According to one site
. The British Army was renumbered in 1920. All soldiers were given a unique 7 digit number which remained with them throughout their service career. It is this number that you need when applying for a post 1920 Service Record.
It could be that if Margaret gave the information that she got one number wrong, or perhaps it was written down incorrectly. Do you have the original birth certificate or a copy?
If soldiers in the British Army had a 7 digit service number after 1920 then Allan Neill's is either missing a number OR could the number be 2242110 (rather than 224240). Must admit when I first saw this I wondered about the second '4' as it didn't look like the first one to me.
Could the second '4' actually be 11?
As to Forces War Records - I too fell for the advertising only to discover that Army records for WW2 weren't there.
Annette
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Does Forces War Records have a forum, if so it might be worth asking on there. According to one site
. The British Army was renumbered in 1920. All soldiers were given a unique 7 digit number which remained with them throughout their service career. It is this number that you need when applying for a post 1920 Service Record.
It could be that if Margaret gave the information that she got one number wrong, or perhaps it was written down incorrectly. Do you have the original birth certificate or a copy?
If soldiers in the British Army had a 7 digit service number after 1920 then Allan Neill's is either missing a number OR could the number be 2242110 (rather than 224240). Must admit when I first saw this I wondered about the second '4' as it didn't look like the first one to me.
Could the second '4' actually be 11?
As to Forces War Records - I too fell for the advertising only to discover that Army records for WW2 weren't there.
Annette
Yes I do think it was a waste of time joining it
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Interesting fact of the name Handlin being of Irish origin wonder if her dad was Irish? even though Dutch is a possibilty
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Interesting fact of the name Handlin being of Irish origin wonder if her dad was Irish? even though Dutch is a possibilty
WieWasWie.nl (a Dutch records site) has only 2 mentions of the surname Handlin?
1755 Jannetje Handlin in Nieuw Amsterdam (in what is now called New York). A marriage.
1793 Johan Handlin in Amsterdam, a soldier with VOC (Dutch East Indies Company).
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Interesting fact of the name Handlin being of Irish origin wonder if her dad was Irish? even though Dutch is a possibilty
I think you need to be careful about jumping to conclusions here. If you look back at Annette's post from yesterday
n frustration I purchased some credits for SP myself - as mentioned earlier on, Margaret's mother was Jeanie McGuffie Milroy - found her in births index as born in 1900 and duly looked at certificate: she was born 23/4/1900 in Glenluce, Wigtownshire, dau. of George Milroy, ploughman and Margaret Morrow Milroy, nee Handling married 14/12/1899.
The name was Handling and has probably just been transcribed incorrectly later on as Handlin.
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Interesting fact of the name Handlin being of Irish origin wonder if her dad was Irish? even though Dutch is a possibilty
I think you need to be careful about jumping to conclusions here. If you look back at Annette's post from yesterday
n frustration I purchased some credits for SP myself - as mentioned earlier on, Margaret's mother was Jeanie McGuffie Milroy - found her in births index as born in 1900 and duly looked at certificate: she was born 23/4/1900 in Glenluce, Wigtownshire, dau. of George Milroy, ploughman and Margaret Morrow Milroy, nee Handling married 14/12/1899.
The name was Handling and has probably just been transcribed incorrectly later on as Handlin.
I was just looking up the Origins thought it was interesting that it could be Irish while I am awaiting the certs I have sent for to arrive this is a snippet from the website
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Something else to mention with regard to Scottish research. Whilst not always rigidly adhered to there was a Scottish Naming Tradition:
MALES
Eldest son - named after his paternal grandfather
Second son - after his maternal grandfather
Third son - after his father
Fourth son - after his father's eldest brother
FEMALES
Eldest daughter - after her maternal grandmother
Second daughter - after her paternal grandmother
Third daughter - after her mother
Fourth daughter - after her mother's eldest sister
So, as per the tradition, Margaret Handlin/g Milroy, was indeed named after her maternal grandmother Margaret Morrow Handling. (My own mother Margaret Ingram Spence was named after her maternal grandmother Margaret Ingram and she had 3 cousins who also had the names Margaret Ingram as Christian names.)
Annette
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Something else to mention with regard to Scottish research. Whilst not always rigidly adhered to there was a Scottish Naming Tradition:
MALES
Eldest son - named after his paternal grandfather
Second son - after his maternal grandfather
Third son - after his father
Fourth son - after his father's eldest brother
FEMALES
Eldest daughter - after her maternal grandmother
Second daughter - after her paternal grandmother
Third daughter - after her mother
Fourth daughter - after her mother's eldest sister
So, as per the tradition, Margaret Handlin/g Milroy, was indeed named after her maternal grandmother Margaret Morrow Handling. (My own mother Margaret Ingram Spence was named after her maternal grandmother Margaret Ingram and she had 3 cousins who also had the names Margaret Ingram as Christian names.)
Annette
So if Neill did have more kids a boy could have been named Allan which is a big help ...thanks
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"So if Neill did have more kids a boy could have been named Allan which is a big help"
See my post, reply 75, which implies exactly that! There is one! The double L in Allan is quite a give-away.
A
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Margaret Handlin/g Milroy's grandparents George Milroy and Margaret Morrow Handling married in 1899 - George 25, son of Thomas Milroy, Shepherd and Sarah, nee Briggs, and Margaret Morrow Handling 21, dau. of Peter Handling, Railway Porter and Ann Jane, nee Murray.
Margaret's birth was registered in 1878 as Margaret Morrow Hanlon and in 1881/1891/1901 family are living in Old Luce, Wigtownshire as Hanlon. So, 'Hanlon' seems to have become 'Handling' when Margaret married. Her parents Peter and Ann Jane actually married in England - 17/12/1872 Liverpool - although mother married as just Jane Murray and they had a son Douglas born in Liverpool before moving back to Old Luce. In 1851 in Wigtown Peter is with his parents Douglas and Margaret and this time surname is Handling! You could be having 'fun' with this surname.
Annette
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So, did Allan Neill and Margaret divorce?
Annette
Yes!!...
CS258/22344 Margaret H Milroy or Neill v Allan Neill Divorce 1949
http://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/search.aspx
Add....
"The item or collection is not accessible to the public.
This might be because the item is undergoing conservation It might be closed for a number of years, under Data Protection legislation, or by a private owner of the records."
Annie
Add...Brilliant work ladies & fascinating, just finished reading it all ;D
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Well done Annie, things are starting to come together. I see unfortunately the status of that record is closed. Does that mean Shushie can't apply for it?
HOWEVER we have a problem here if they didn't divorce until 1949 as Margaret and Carl married in 1948.
Marriages Mar 1948
Colson Carl C Colson Surrey Mid.E.
Colson Carl C Neill Surrey Mid.E.
Colson Carl C Milroy Surrey Mid.E.
Colson Margaret H Colson Surrey Mid.E.
Milroy Margaret H Colson Surrey Mid.E.
Neill Margaret H Colson Surrey Mid.E. 5g 722
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Well done Annie, things are starting to come together. I see unfortunately the status of that record is closed. Does that mean Shushie can't apply for it?
HOWEVER we have a problem here if they didn't divorce until 1949 as Margaret and Carl married in 1948.
Marriages Mar 1948
Colson Carl C Colson Surrey Mid.E.
Colson Carl C Neill Surrey Mid.E.
Colson Carl C Milroy Surrey Mid.E.
Colson Margaret H Colson Surrey Mid.E.
Milroy Margaret H Colson Surrey Mid.E.
Neill Margaret H Colson Surrey Mid.E. 5g 722
Unfortunately Groom the records can neither be sent for nor looked up & transcribed sadly.
I noticed the date but at least she'd applied for the divorce before jumping ship & getting married in another country probably thought she'd never be found out & not nearly 70 yrs later :D
"divorces, civil partnerships and dissolutions of a civil partnership are not available to view online. This is in accordance with the National Records of Scotland’s policy on protecting the privacy of individuals."
Annie
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She might have applied for the divorce, but she didn't wait until it was granted before marrying Carl Colson and going off to America with him. I wonder how they managed that as she wouldn't have been in the UK to deal with any paperwork or court appearances? I'm guessing she had to marry Carl so that she could go to America with him but I presume that means as she married before the divorce came through that she married bigamously? I wonder if they remarried in America?
Could it be that she "disappeared" and Allan Neill sued for divorce as he wanted to remarry?
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Could it be that she "disappeared" and Allan Neill sued for divorce as he wanted to remarry?
Groom, from the wording it looks as though she was the one applying?
"Margaret H Milroy or Neill v Allan Neill Divorce 1949"
She wouldn't need to appear in court if it was mutual & she knew it was going ahead, just a case of waiting for when it was granted.
She possibly married only a matter months before it was granted as there's no given date?
Annie
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She possibly married only a matter months before it was granted as there's no given date?
Still naughty and illegal. ;D
My guess is that as he was in the Air Force, they had to marry so that she was allowed to go back to America with him. The authorities probably needed to see a certificate before they granted permission. Perhaps they just took a chance that as they were going out of the country it would never be discovered. Look at the names that were used on the GRO record - Milroy, Neill and Colson.
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Ok guys it appears that Allan Neill was the father of Both kids ( I received the birth cert, yay)born in 1941 and 42 I could use anyone's help in reading this or an opinion would be great TIA
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So as we thought. Something happened after the birth of the second child to make Margaret give her up, what we may never know. I also wonder why Margaret went to London in the middle of the war rather than stay in the relative safety of Scotland?
Reads:
Allan Neill
Plumber
(Private, RASC)
Usual Residence 9, Preston Street, Rosewell ?
Margaret Handlin Neill
MS Milroy
Can't make out the last bit, looks like 1940 off ?????? 30th Rosewell.
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So as we thought. Something happened after the birth of the second child to make Margaret give her up, what we may never know. I also wonder why Margaret went to London in the middle of the war rather than stay in the relative safety of Scotland?
Reads:
Allan Neill
Plumber
(Private, RASC)
Usual Residence 9, Preston Street, Rosewell ?
Margaret Handlin Neill
MS Milroy
Can't make out the last bit, looks like 1940 off ?????? 30th Rosewell.
Thank you Groom so we agree its deffo his child he had 2 with Margaret, It does seem strange to go to London? perhaps Neill was posted there? Margaret seemed to stay in London during the war as 2 more kids were born there 1942 and 1946 I don't know how much leave during the war a soldier would have? but she was married to Neill for 9 years and they only had 2 kids? so perhaps he was a prisoner of war during that time? and she met Colson in the mean time? Neill could have been captured in Singapore? or couldn't get back but it seems he never got back after his 2nd child was born otherwise I suspect he would have had at least another child with Margaret and perhaps she thought he was not coming back or thought he was dead? all this is just speculation but it don't explain why you would go with your new husband and your child and his child and leave your other child?
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Can I ask How do I change the Header for this thread IE Alan Neill as I wont to put in his service number and his regiment in case anyone else is looking I have gone through my account and can not find how to do it...TIA
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Can I ask How do I change the Header for this thread IE Alan Neill as I wont to put in his service number and his regiment in case anyone else is looking I have gone through my account and can not find how to do it...TIA
I don't think that you can change things after 24 hours. You need to ask a Mod to do it for you. Just click on the report to Mod after the post.
I think most of your last post is speculation and perhaps the only way you will ever find out is to either make contact with one of Allan's second family in the hope that they know, or get Allan's service records. How do you know he was anywhere near Singapore?
Personally, I would think it highly unlikely that Margaret would have followed Allan to London during the war as he was only a private and would have been likely to have been posted anywhere, including abroad at a moment's notice.
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Can I ask How do I change the Header for this thread IE Alan Neill as I wont to put in his service number and his regiment in case anyone else is looking I have gone through my account and can not find how to do it...TIA
I don't think that you can change things after 24 hours. You need to ask a Mod to do it for you. Just click on the report to Mod after the post.
I think most of your last post is speculation and perhaps the only way you will ever find out is to either make contact with one of Allan's second family in the hope that they know, or get Allan's service records. How do you know he was anywhere near Singapore?
Personally, I would think it highly unlikely that Margaret would have followed Allan to London during the war as he was only a private and would have been likely to have been posted anywhere, including abroad at a moment's notice.
I found an Allan Neill private British Prisoner Singapore in a search so its only guess work I haven't sent for the details has its quite expensive at the moment but the time line of birth of his last child 1942 and Margaret remarried in 49 and leaving for USA is quite a few a years past but Neill had to have been in London in 1942 his name is on my ladies birth as father(see previous post) and according to legal side of registering a birth father had to be present ( according to previous post someone stated he had to give permission I have read give permission or prove he is the father)? I personally don't know about WW2 and fathers and babies that is why I am asking on here for HELP, yes my opinion is speculation but also quite a few others as well including you and its the opinion of others that could help piece together with or without speculation to piece together this and try and find the truth anyway thank you all so much for your help you have been stars I do hope my lady actually finds out why she was dumped before? I will look now for family to try and get answers Thank you all again ,,Really hope a family member searching for the same see's this...
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Since 1874, when a married woman registers the birth of a child, her husband is assumed to be the father, unless the woman says otherwise.
If the woman is single, or states a different father to her husband, then that man has to be present at the registration AND give his permission for his name to be included as the father.
But, the whole process is informant led; the Registrar just writes down what he has been told by the parent(s), and no proof is asked for.
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One thought that has crossed my mind, following on from KG's post is that Allan may not be the biological father of the second baby. As he said "Since 1874, when a married woman registers the birth of a child, her husband is assumed to be the father, unless the woman says otherwise."
We need to know where Allan was 9 months before her birth, if he was abroad that would rule him out! We know that Margaret was in London for the birth, but doesn't necessarily mean that Allan was.
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Since Allan Neill's address was give as Islington on the 1942 birth certificate he had been/or was in London. I still feel that this is why Margaret came to London too. We then know that something traumatic happened around birth of 2nd child. The mention of Allan Neill possibly being a POW in Singapore would certainly come under 'traumatic' as presumably he would initially have been reported as 'missing in action' and would also explain how the Red Cross came to be involved. I still firmly believe that Allan Neill was the father of the 2nd. child (if it had been another mans, for instance, I don't think this would entail any involvement by the Red Cross).
We can't know what effect this had on Margaret at the time and all the various assumptions being made are somewhat fanciful I feel.
I still feel that the fact the Red Cross were involved would indicate that something had indeed happened to Allan Neill during his Army Service and we simply cannot know why his wife felt she could not cope with her newborn., only that she did. We only know that she went back to Scotland with her toddler and newborn baby probably with the help of the Red Cross. Once there she obviously couldn't cope and the baby went into care. She could initially have gone to pieces and perhaps the relevant families weren't as supportive as they could have been. A mention was made earlier of a family member being rejected as being unsuitable to take the baby.
Margaret may have remained in Scotland for quite a while but we just don't know. The impression given on the thread is that she returned to 'dump' the child and swiftly returned to London and I doubt that was the case.
The bottom line is that we don't know and I don't think the various negative assumptions are helping.
I would agree that the next step would be to try and find descendants of Allan Neill from a second marriage where more facts/truth of the situation may emerge.
Annette
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Sorry to butt in, i have been following this thread.
I would contact the Scotland archives concerning obtaining the divorce record for Margaret and Allan. I obtained my grandmother's divorce records without any problems, her divorce was in the same era 1940's. It made interesting reading Re: mentions of kids she had in care at Barnardos and also the child she gave up for adoption.
Could be worth dropping them a email as if these records can be obtained it could answer a lot of questions and put some light on the situation.
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Since Allan Neill's address was give as Islington on the 1942 birth certificate he had been/or was in London. I still feel that this is why Margaret came to London too. We then know that something traumatic happened around birth of 2nd child. The mention of Allan Neill possibly being a POW in Singapore would certainly come under 'traumatic' as presumably he would initially have been reported as 'missing in action' and would also explain how the Red Cross came to be involved. I still firmly believe that Allan Neill was the father of the 2nd. child (if it had been another mans, for instance, I don't think this would entail any involvement by the Red Cross).
We can't know what effect this had on Margaret at the time and all the various assumptions being made are somewhat fanciful I feel.
I still feel that the fact the Red Cross were involved would indicate that something had indeed happened to Allan Neill during his Army Service and we simply cannot know why his wife felt she could not cope with her newborn., only that she did. We only know that she went back to Scotland with her toddler and newborn baby probably with the help of the Red Cross. Once there she obviously couldn't cope and the baby went into care. She could initially have gone to pieces and perhaps the relevant families weren't as supportive as they could have been. A mention was made earlier of a family member being rejected as being unsuitable to take the baby.
Margaret may have remained in Scotland for quite a while but we just don't know. The impression given on the thread is that she returned to 'dump' the child and swiftly returned to London and I doubt that was the case.
The bottom line is that we don't know and I don't think the various negative assumptions are helping.
I would agree that the next step would be to try and find descendants of Allan Neill from a second marriage where more facts/truth of the situation may emerge.
Annette
I can only hope Annette to find someone who may know the story as the foster/carers never gave her the info it died with them and my lady was left with a little birth cert from when she was registered but what u said does sound more plausible the time span ect I have sent for his 2nd marriage and we shall see after to make sure if any other kids exist although many secrets were kept secrets back then due to circumstance religion ect and perhaps no one knows but at least she now knows she had a mum and dad and a sister and mum and dad were married tragic thing about it all is back in 1988 she got the big cert with more info and no one took it further for her at that point more relatives would have been alive back then the main ones who probably knew the story....thank you all for your help will carry on when I get more of the certs I have ordered
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Since Allan Neill's address was give as Islington on the 1942 birth certificate he had been/or was in London. I still feel that this is why Margaret came to London too. We then know that something traumatic happened around birth of 2nd child. The mention of Allan Neill possibly being a POW in Singapore would certainly come under 'traumatic' as presumably he would initially have been reported as 'missing in action' and would also explain how the Red Cross came to be involved. I still firmly believe that Allan Neill was the father of the 2nd. child (if it had been another mans, for instance, I don't think this would entail any involvement by the Red Cross).
We can't know what effect this had on Margaret at the time and all the various assumptions being made are somewhat fanciful I feel.
I still feel that the fact the Red Cross were involved would indicate that something had indeed happened to Allan Neill during his Army Service and we simply cannot know why his wife felt she could not cope with her newborn., only that she did. We only know that she went back to Scotland with her toddler and newborn baby probably with the help of the Red Cross. Once there she obviously couldn't cope and the baby went into care. She could initially have gone to pieces and perhaps the relevant families weren't as supportive as they could have been. A mention was made earlier of a family member being rejected as being unsuitable to take the baby.
Margaret may have remained in Scotland for quite a while but we just don't know. The impression given on the thread is that she returned to 'dump' the child and swiftly returned to London and I doubt that was the case.
The bottom line is that we don't know and I don't think the various negative assumptions are helping.
I would agree that the next step would be to try and find descendants of Allan Neill from a second marriage where more facts/truth of the situation may emerge.
Annette
I can only hope Annette to find someone who may know the story as the foster/carers never gave her the info it died with them and my lady was left with a little birth cert from when she was registered but what u said does sound more plausible the time span ect I have sent for his 2nd marriage and we shall see after to make sure if any other kids exist although many secrets were kept secrets back then due to circumstance religion ect and perhaps no one knows but at least she now knows she had a mum and dad and a sister and mum and dad were married tragic thing about it all is back in 1988 she got the big cert with more info and no one took it further for her at that point more relatives would have been alive back then the main ones who probably knew the story....thank you all for your help will carry on when I get more of the certs I have ordered
also Margaret was quite young at this time and alone in London
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There is a possibility that there are living relatives from the sister and half sister in America if only we could find them.
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There is a possibility that there are living relatives from the sister and half sister in America if only we could find them.
I am really trying..
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Thread getting long so not sure if it has been found. This looks to be the divorce entry in Scotland for Allan and Margaret:
Margaret H Milroy or Neill v Allan Neill: Divorce
Ref CS258/22344
Dates 1949
Access status: Closed
http://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/search.aspx
Monica
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Yes that was found earlier - a year after Margaret married Carl and went to America! ;)
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Thank you Groom :) Did try to find mention of it, promise!
Monica
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No worries, as you say the thread is quite long.
I think what Shushie would like to do now is find any descendants of Allan from his second marriage.
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Hi,
Lt Col Carl Clayton Colson & his wife Marga Helene Colson are both listed here: http://files.usgwarchives.net/va/arlington/cemeteries/arlington-col-con.txt
Surname: Colson
Given Name: Carl
Middle Name: Clayton
Suffix:
DOB: 06/15/1919 (15th June 1919)
DOD: 11/01/1962 (1st Nov 1962)
Branch: US Air Force
Rank: LtCol
Sec: 2
Row: 0
Site: 3696 RH
Interment Date: 11/06/1962 (6th Nov 1962)
Surname: Colson
Given Name: Marga
Middle Name: Helene
Suffix:
DOB: 04/19/1923 (19th April 1923)
DOD: 12/25/1999 (25th Dec 1999)
Branch: US Army
Rank: Pvt (Private)
Sec: 2
Row: 0
Site: 3696 RH
Interment Date: 07/10/2000 (10th Jul 2000)
It would appear therefore that she was in the US Army with the rank of Private.
Hope this helps.
Kind regards
David
was wondering if the other Colson in this Block was Carls son? he was born in 1944 California, in 1945/46 Carl was in London with Margaret so possible Carl was married also? back in USA
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Social Security records
John Anthony Colson
[John A Colson]
Birth Date: 12 Jan 1944
Birth Place: Los Angeles, California
Death Date: 11 Nov 2005
SSN: 028345583
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Here is his birth
John Anthony Colson
Birth : 12 Jan 1944
Mother's Maiden Name: Stevenson
Birth County: Los Angeles
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Burial
John Anthony Colson
Service Info.: SP5 US ARMY
Birth Date: 12 Jan 1944
Death Date: 11 Nov 2005
Cemetery: Arlington National Cemetery
Cemetery Address: C/O Director Arlington, VA 22211
Buried At: Section 8-H Row 3 Site 3
Carl is in Plot: Section 2 Site 3696 RH so may not be the same family. In fact there are about 14 Colsons buried in Arlington.
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Still awaiting the Marriage cert of Allan Neill's 2nd marriage, how reliable is Scottish People? received birth cert no problem had to email them twice about this cert had email last week saying dispatched never turned up then sent email they said if you wanted quick delivery pay £15 pounds then it had to be scanned again as was unreadable.(well if it is unreadable how is the info on the website correct in the 1st place?) I paid £13.95 for the last one and the same with this one I would think a week is long enough to wait? don't think I will buy the certs through them again so I am stuck at the moment on the Neill family and any siblings his knew marriage may have had.....
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Unfortunately, Shushie, Scotlands People is the only place where you can buy Scottish certificates.
Annette
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Also, a week to 10 days is about average waiting time for certificates from the GRO as well, especially this time of the year after television shows such as Who Do You Think You Are, Long Lost Families and Heir Hunters have been on.
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Also, a week to 10 days is about average waiting time for certificates from the GRO as well, especially this time of the year after television shows such as Who Do You Think You Are, Long Lost Families and Heir Hunters have been on.
I was a bit nift after saying it was dispatched and not arriving and then saying it was being scanned again? I have had a birth cert some time ago through ancestry that was Scottish Annette? perhaps they don't do it know, last one I had from Scottish People was took 3 days
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If you order through something like Ancestry though it costs far more doesn't it? They have to order it through the GRO or Scotlands People anyway, so add their bit on.
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Bottom line...
Reply #98
1940 January 30th Rosewell
Annie
Add...Just noticed there's more info. been added since my last visit so maybe someone has already given this :-\
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There is a possibility that there are living relatives from the sister and half sister in America if only we could find them.
Thanks to you all I have found the son of one of the sister's in USA and she knows nothing of my lady which I suspected but same dad she knew of him as her bio but never classed him as dad never returned to Scotland to find him, Carl Colson was her dad as far as she was concerned, I am hoping to find relatives of Allan Neill's 2nd marriage 1949 he married Jane Ann Rodger Bruce father James Bruce gamekeeper retired. mother Elizabeth something Bruce nee Walker deceased marriage district Lasswade Midlothian big help needed
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That's good news that you've made contact in the USA - presumably that is with the family of the older sister? Is she still alive and does she want any contact with her sister? If I'm correct they are full sisters aren't they?
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That's good news that you've made contact in the USA - presumably that is with the family of the older sister? Is she still alive and does she want any contact with her sister? If I'm correct they are full sisters aren't they?
Yes they are I have exchanged birth certs but son is reluctant to tell her she has never mentioned a lost sister so he says? but knows who her bio dad is Allan Neill never went back to Scotland to find him only classes Carl Colson as her dad, but I doubt he is going to mention it to her as I can not get to speak to her where do I go from here? I am treading on egg shells at the moment My lady as had a lifetime of not knowing and now knows she has family out there but I have not told her yet I have found her sibling I want a happy ending so if you can help find the Neill's I have sent for 2 Births I think would be Allan's kids after he married in 1949 going to try there
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That is a real shame, but perhaps he has reasons for not telling her. She would be late 70s wouldn't she if I am remembering correctly, but we don't know the state of her health. I suppose it might come as a shock to know that she has a full blood younger sister, who for some reason was "given" away. It does make you wonder if Carl Colson knew doesn't it, as it was kept such a secret? The elder sister was obviously old enough to remember Carl coming into their lives, hence knowing he wasn't her biological father, but wasn't old enough to remember when her sister was born.
I do seriously wonder whether Allan Neill was actually your lady's father. Could her mother have had an affair while Allan was in the army? She could easily have put his name on the certificate and that would have been accepted as she was married to him at the time. That would explain why she gave the baby up and didn't try and claim her back, or mention her when she went to America.It does seem very strange to me that if she was just given up because she couldn't cope, that she was never mentioned. The only way to find out for sure would be for both parties to take a DNA test, and I can't see that happening.
I'm afraid there isn't a lot you can do though if the son isn't willing to tell his mother.
It might be a good idea to post your last request re finding Allan Neill's new family on the Scottish board, but with a link back to this thread so people don't waste time going over old ground. The only thing to keep in mind though, is that if my suspicion's about your lady's birth father are right, any children of Allan for that marriage won't be connected to her.
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That is a real shame, but perhaps he has reasons for not telling her. She would be late 70s wouldn't she if I am remembering correctly, but we don't know the state of her health. I suppose it might come as a shock to know that she has a full blood younger sister, who for some reason was "given" away. It does make you wonder if Carl Colson knew doesn't it, as it was kept such a secret? The elder sister was obviously old enough to remember Carl coming into their lives, hence knowing he wasn't her biological father, but wasn't old enough to remember when her sister was born.
I do seriously wonder whether Allan Neill was actually your lady's father. Could her mother have had an affair while Allan was in the army? She could easily have put his name on the certificate and that would have been accepted as she was married to him at the time. That would explain why she gave the baby up and didn't try and claim her back, or mention her when she went to America.It does seem very strange to me that if she was just given up because she couldn't cope, that she was never mentioned. The only way to find out for sure would be for both parties to take a DNA test, and I can't see that happening.
I'm afraid there isn't a lot you can do though if the son isn't willing to tell his mother.
It might be a good idea to post your last request re finding Allan Neill's new family on the Scottish board, but with a link back to this thread so people don't waste time going over old ground. The only thing to keep in mind though, is that if my suspicion's about your lady's birth father are right, any children of Allan for that marriage won't be connected to her.
I have sent attachments via emails to both of you of the 2nd marriage cert I need it transcribed not sure about the Bruce could be Brice also can not quite make out her mothers and father name or Allans I tride to upload snippets on here but it woulnt let me TIA
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So, did Allan Neill and Margaret divorce?
Annette
Yes!!...
CS258/22344 Margaret H Milroy or Neill v Allan Neill Divorce 1949
http://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/search.aspx
Add....
"The item or collection is not accessible to the public.
This might be because the item is undergoing conservation It might be closed for a number of years, under Data Protection legislation, or by a private owner of the records."
Annie
Add...Brilliant work ladies & fascinating, just finished reading it all ;D
Hi I missed this post just going over some posts I can not access this it wont let me can you tell me how too and what I need to put in to get the info you did?and does it state children? Its important now I have contact with a living relative ...TIA
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The link works in taking me to the site - I just entered 'Allan Neill' in a search which brought up 28 entries and the divorce in 1949 is on the 2nd page of entries and as Annie previously stated just states 'Margaret H. Milroy or Neill v. Allan Neill: Divorce (i.e. she was divorcing him).
As Annie stated it is shown as a Closed Record and not accessible to the public so you won't be able to find out the details I'm afraid.
Annette