RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: chrissyann on Tuesday 29 August 17 22:49 BST (UK)
-
I wonder if anyone can help me trace William Panormo who was born in Pimlico, London about 1797
according to the 1851 census.He died in Derby in 1867 but I'm really trying to find his parents but have come up with nothing so far.Would be really grateful for any help
Chrissyann
-
Panormo seems to have been a by-name adopted by the Trusiano family of musical instrument makers, originally from Sicily but who migrated via Naples, Paris and Ireland to London in the 18th century. I can't immediately link William to them, however.
Have you found him in 1861, and if so what were his age and birthplace then? I see that he was already an engraver by the time he married Mary McDougall in Liverpool on 17 April 1815.
Recorded age at death for William Panormo was 71 (Jun qtr 1867 Shardlow).
-
Here they are in 1841 in Manchester; Cecilia may be a good clue to links with the musical family.
William Panormo 45 Engraver N [his details are crossed through but legible - perhaps away on census night]
William do 20 Clerk N
Ellen do 18 N
Henry do 15 N
Cecilia do 20 Professor of Music I
-
I had wondered whether the Cecilia Panormo in William's 1841 household was the one born 1 Mar 1823 and baptised 4 May 1823 at St Anne, Soho (parents Louis and Sarah).
Louis Panormo was a distinguished maker of "Spanish-style" guitars in London in the early 19th century, and it seems he was the fourth son of Vincenzo Trusiano Panormo: www.rootschat.com/links/01kmq/
However Louis' daughter Cecilia was with him, aged 18, in London in 1841. The Cecilia in Manchester with William, apparently born in Ireland according to that census, must be someone else.
-
1851 HO107/2143/564/15
They are in Derbyshire, William, wife Mary, son William, son Henry
-
Directories on ancestry for Derbyshire
1855 he is at 28 Irongate
1857 South Parade same address as 1851 census
1862 29 Queen Street.
-
Baptisms which might help tracing their marriage
All have parents William and Mary
Elizabeth Panormo 10 September 1820 St Luke Finsbury
William Panormo 28 September 1821 St Luke
Ellen Panormo 20 October 1824 St Luke
Henry Panorine 26 August 1827 Limehouse St Anne. - probably mistranscribed as difficult to read
Heywood
-
The marriage was 17 Apr 1815 Liverpool - referred to (briefly) at reply #1.
-
The marriage was 17 Apr 1815 Liverpool - referred to (briefly) at reply #1.
Oh sorry - I missed that. ::) that's why I can't see anything. ;)
-
Directories on ancestry for Derbyshire
1855 he is at 28 Irongate
1857 South Parade same address as 1851 census
1862 29 Queen Street.
So it's strange I can't find him in 1861 ???
-
There is a fragment of Queen St, Derby at RG9/2495/67/1 (or search for e.g. Catherine Dakin born 1842 Aston, Derbyshire). However it doesn't include no 29 and I cannot easily see other Queen St addresses. Derby is not supposed to be missing pieces from 1861.
-
Trying to trace more on Cecilia Panormo from 1841, in case she can lead us to William's origins.
South Eastern Gazette, 22 Oct 1839
Star Inn, Maidstone: Madame Panormo begs to announce to the Nobility and Gentry, that a concert and lecture on the art of Singing, to take place on Friday October 25th. The Concert will be aided by the celebrated first soprano Miss Julia Gould, Miss Maud and Miss Cecilia Panormo, likewise Mr Napoleon Gould guitarist, who will also perform on the concertina.
Madame Panormo gives lessons on Italian and English singing, as likewise her son Mr Napoleon W. Gould on the Guitar and Concertina. [...]
(An earlier notice, for a concert in Canterbury in February 1834, promotes the talents of Madame Panormo and "her daughter and pupil, Miss Wildman Gould, seven years old" - perhaps this is Julia.)
-
Lodging at 56 Agard St, Derby in 1861 (head of household is a Mary A. Holland):
R.B. Buckley Un 36 Musician, Lancashire
G.L. Buckley Un 33 Musician, Lancashire
F. Buckley Un 28 Musician, Lancashire
Julia Gould Wid 35 Vocalist, London <<<
RG9/2503/97/27
Contemporaneous reports describe this group as "Buckley's Serenaders with Miss Julia Gould", having apparently achieved considerable renown in New York. Their act seems to have been one of so-called "sable minstrels" (other language regarding race/skin colour is used in the reports which I will not repeat here) though it is not clear whether this refers to their natural appearance/heritage or not.
Online searches reveal that Julia Gould had married a well-known "minstrel", John H Collins, who died in Cuba in 1860; and that her brother Napoleon W Gould b London 1819 was also a famous minstrel, emigrating to the US in 1848 and dying in New York in 1881.
-
Perhaps the 1862 Queen Street directory address for William was a commercial rather than residential property?
ADDED: Might Louis & William be brothers? And might the same Cecelia have been entered on 2 census sheets in error - ie usually lived with Louis but was staying with William on the night?
-
Here they are in 1841 in Manchester; Cecilia may be a good clue to links with the musical family.
William Panormo 45 Engraver N [his details are crossed through but legible - perhaps away on census night]
William do 20 Clerk N
Ellen do 18 N
Henry do 15 N
Cecilia do 20 Professor of Music I
1841 521/43/28
Shows a William and Mary Panormo in Warrington. The ages are out a bit and his occupation looks like Engineer rather than Engraver but unusual name. :)
-
Perhaps the 1862 Queen Street directory address for William was a commercial rather than residential property?
Yes it may be that it was mostly a commercial street, hence so few census returns from it.
Just in case "Madame" Panormo's bit of the family turns out to be relevant, I believe she is the Elizabeth Caroline Wildman Gould for whom banns of marriage were published with Henry James Panormo at St Martin in the Fields, Westminster in December 1827.
Deaths:
Henry James Panormo, Dec qtr 1839 Medway aged 46
Caroline Gould Panormo, Jun qtr 1858 St Luke Chelsea aged 66
-
ADDED: Might Louis & William be brothers? And might the same Cecelia have been entered on 2 census sheets in error - ie usually lived with Louis but was staying with William on the night?
It's all possible. But the Cecilia in Manchester in 1841 is enumerated as born in Ireland, which is intriguing. Francis Panormo (father of Henry James, who married "Madame") appears from online searches to have spent time working in Ireland. I am wondering whether William is from this Irish-connected branch, perhaps a brother of Henry James Panormo & son of Francis?
-
I looked on rootsireland.ie index and there are no records for Panormo & variations around 1780- 1800 also nothing on irishgenealogy.ie for 1770 - 1800,l neither of these is complete however.
ADDED: However quite a few references to Panormo in Irish newspapers....so am trawling through the early ones - perhaps these are where you found reference to Francis?
-
I looked on rootsireland.ie index and there are no records for Panormo & variations around 1780- 1800 [not complete records though],
William claims to have been born in London per 1851, and indeed Francis was recorded in Kensington for tax purposes in 1797, so it may be that the Irish link came later.
-
ADDED: However quite a few references to Panormo in Irish newspapers....so am trawling through the early ones - perhaps these are where you found reference to Francis?
Reference to Francis being in Dublin here: www.dublinmusictrade.ie/node/355
...but no, I haven't been through Irish newspapers.
-
From irishgenealogy:
Area - DUBLIN (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - ST. MARY, PRO CATHEDRAL
Baptism of CECILIA PANORMO of N/R on 27 May 1821
Name CECILIA PANORMO
Date of Birth N/R N/R N/R
Address N/R
Father FERDINANDO PANORMO
Mother MARIA
Sponsor 1 THOMAS CARROLL
Sponsor 2 ELIZA
ADDED: Looks, from avm's link, like Ferdinand was Francis' son.
-
And more Panormos
Area - DUBLIN (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - ST. ANDREW
Marriage of JOHN ANDERSON of N/R and AMELIA PANORMO of N/R on 30 October 1844
Husband Wife
Name JOHN ANDERSON AMELIA PANORMO
Address N/R N/R
Occupation N/R N/R
Father ANDERSON PANORMO
Mother N/R N/R
Witness 1 JOHN ANDERSON
Witness 2 MATILDA PANORMO
ADDED: And just to follow through - a Cecelia Panormo married a John George Rudge Millett in St Peter's Melbourne on 18 Mar 1852, one witness is Sophie Panormo.
However getting off track here a bit now ;D.
Perhaps Louis, William & Ferdinand were the 3 sons of Francis? All having children in the 1820s, so probably born 1780 - 1800...
-
How exciting - Cecilia WAS born in Ireland! So how did she know William - was he her uncle?
NB I think the Cecilia who married in Australia may be the other one (daughter of Louis) in that his branch emigrated. I think Louis died in New Zealand.
Louis I think was a younger brother (rather than son) of Francis - both were sons of Vincenzo.
-
Louis I think was a younger brother (rather than son) of Francis - both were sons of Vincenzo.
Sorry, you found this out earlier & I forgot :-[ ;)
As an aside, Francis had a bankruptcy discharged in Aug 1826 in Dublin.
-
I wonder whether Matilda Panormo from the Irish record is the "Miss Maud Panormo" who performed with Cecilia and Madame etc in 1839 (Maud being traditionally a nickname for Matilda)?
-
Could be...if only we had Irish censuses :'(
ADDED:
https://londonstreetviews.wordpress.com/category/27-broad-street-bloomsbury-division-2-nos-1-37-and-high-street-nos-22-67/
In the first quarter of the nineteenth century, the six-stringed guitar was introduced into England and one of the best maker of such guitars was Louis Panormo. His father, Vicenzo Panormo (1734-1813), originally a violin maker from Sicily, came to London via France with his four sons. The whole family was musically minded and many Panormos found work in London as instrument makers, musicians, music publishers and composers. There were to begin with Vicenzo’s four sons, Francis (1763-1843), Joseph (1768-1837), George (1776-1852) and Louis (1784-1862), but the next generation, Ferdinand (c.1795-1882), Robert (c.1803-1873), Edward (1811-1891), George Lewis (1815-1877) and Angelina (1811-1900) were also involved in the world of music.
........
When the next daughter, Mathilda, is baptised, the mother is listed as Sarah and the address is High Street, which does correspond to the guitar labels. More children were born to Louis and Sarah and when addresses are given in the baptismal records, they correspond to those on the guitar labels. Why Louis married Sarah Sutton only in 1834, many years after the children were born, remains a mystery.
-
Here is some information re that Panormo family with a tree - perhaps incomplete - on page 11.
http://theguitar-blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/the-panormo-guitar-and-its-makers.pdf
-
Hmmm, nice find; so William may be son of Joseph or George?
-
Could be...if only we had Irish censuses :'(
ADDED:
https://londonstreetviews.wordpress.com/category/27-broad-street-bloomsbury-division-2-nos-1-37-and-high-street-nos-22-67/
In the first quarter of the nineteenth century, the six-stringed guitar was introduced into England and one of the best maker of such guitars was Louis Panormo. His father, Vicenzo Panormo (1734-1813), originally a violin maker from Sicily, came to London via France with his four sons. The whole family was musically minded and many Panormos found work in London as instrument makers, musicians, music publishers and composers. There were to begin with Vicenzo’s four sons, Francis (1763-1843), Joseph (1768-1837), George (1776-1852) and Louis (1784-1862), but the next generation, Ferdinand (c.1795-1882), Robert (c.1803-1873), Edward (1811-1891), George Lewis (1815-1877) and Angelina (1811-1900) were also involved in the world of music.
........
When the next daughter, Mathilda, is baptised, the mother is listed as Sarah and the address is High Street, which does correspond to the guitar labels. More children were born to Louis and Sarah and when addresses are given in the baptismal records, they correspond to those on the guitar labels. Why Louis married Sarah Sutton only in 1834, many years after the children were born, remains a mystery.
This Matilda was buried aged 6 weeks in 1819 (Louis and Sarah went on to have a Sarah Matilda in 1821, bapt 1822, who emigrated to NZ).
But I am wondering whether Francis or one of his sons also had a Matilda, the one we see in Ireland, who may also be "Maud"?
-
Ahh, understood.
-
Another sighting of Matilda Panormo: she witnessed the marriage of Constantine Panormo and Sophia Crabb, St Pancras, 1836.
-
Another Panormo in Ireland:
Alexander Panormo and Catherine Matilda Anderson obtained a marriage licence in Dublin in 1824.
Alexander was a Dublin bookbinder, according to this old Rootschat thread:
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=292931.0
-
Thanks so much for all your research.What an intriguing family,I really hope I can connect William
It sounds possible.I couldn't find him on the 1861 census either,or the 1841 on Ancestry