RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Clackmannanshire => Topic started by: Revolution on Thursday 31 August 17 00:35 BST (UK)
-
Hi
I have access to ancestry and scotlands people and searched for Alexander Maule in the 1851 census but cannot find him.
Alex was born on 16 December 1803 and died on 29 December 1851 at Dolls Distillery in Clackmannanshire which is many months after the census took place.
He was married to Margaret Hall. Recently I found a death record for a Margaret Hall "daughter" of Alexander Maule. The problem is that Alexander had a daughter Margaret who married his brother Francis and lived until 1882. I think its more likely that the Margaret Hall named was his wife. If this is the right record she died on 22 January 1850 in Clackmannan. Potentially Alex remarried on 5 May 1851 to Elizabeth Simpson in Alloa, Clackmannanshire but this is a speculative link. What adds some weight to it is that Alexs brother Francis married Alexs daughter on the same day in the same church.
Alex and Margaret had the following children:
Annie 1826-1908
Janet 1828-?
Margaret 1830-1882
John 1832-1834
Francis 1834-1878
John 1836-1930
Alexander 1837-1838
Robert 1842-1862
Alexander 1844-1929
And potentially another Alexander who died in 1841
I can find any children to Alex and Elizabeth.
Any help finding Alex and Margaret in the 1851 census would be appreciated
-
You don't say if you have them in the 1841 Census - they are on Freecen
- in Clackmannan Town.
Alexander MAULE aged 36, agricultural labourer, born outside Census County.
Margaret aged 35 born Clackmannanshire.
Margaret aged 10 born "" ""
Francis aged 7 born """ ""
John aged 5 born """ ""
No sign of them in the 1851 on FreeCen (they may not have transcribed that county yet).
Also no sign of them on familysearch for the 1851.
As you also cannot find them on Ancestry or findmypast my guess is they aren't in the 1851.
Could be any number of reasons - just got missed off; the name is very hard to read and has been transcribed wrongly, (though I did look for all the children called just 'Francis' born between 1834 and 1838 born Clackmannanshire in the whole of Scotland but to no avail). I also tried looking for some of the children using the HAll surname - again nothing obvious. Also that part of the 1851 Census may be missing for that area - I'm sure that can be checked somewhere.
As you say he died in Clackmannanshire it would seem they had not moved out of the area. It is very odd I agree.
-
Hi goldie61
Thank you for looking. I did have the 1841 census but neglected to mention it.
I found this but it doesn't seem to cover Clackmannanshire.
The following is a list of parishes (with their parish numbers and counties) that are known to be missing (either because there is no data for them, or because the original records are missing):
Parish Number Parish Name County
93 Inverallan Inverness
152 Enzie Banff
167 Seafield Banff
509 Cumlodden Argyll
559 Abbey (Paisley) Renfrew
862 Corsock Bridge Kirkcudbright
In 1851 Margaret Maule (Alexanders daughter) was living with her future husband. They married 6 weeks later. I cant find Francis or John. Johns arrival in the USA is 1852/1853 but I have not found the exact record. I cant find Robert but he died in the USA as well around 1862. Alexander Jr married Helen McLaren in Stirling in 1864 but I cant find him in 1851.
-
Could this be Dollar Distillery?
Skoosh.
-
It went through a few different name changes over the last 200+ years. On Alex death cert it says Dolls. I think its in Menstrie.
http://lostdistillery.com/02lowlands-north-west/glenochil.html
The nespaper clipping of his death doesnt mention either womans name
Alloa Advertiser Saturday December 27, 1851 page 4
"Deplorable Accident On Thursday last a very distressing casualty occurred at Glenochil Distillery. One of the workman Alexander Maule went into the steam room full of steam and was dreadfully scalded. The poor man was got out and lived in agony until 10pm in the evening when death terminated his suffering".
-
Sounds a horrible way to die. Poor man :-\
Did his brother Francis also have children called Robert and Alexander. Just wondering whether the Robert and Alexander who show with Francis and Margaret in 1851 were in fact her brothers?
Monica
-
Hi Monica
Francis has a wife before he married Margaret named Janet Cochrane. I have their marriage.
Known children with Janet (I have the baptisms):
Mary 1838-1889
John 1840-1875
Jane 1842-1877
Janet 1845-1930
James 1848-1885
Speculative (I cant find baptisms):
Alexander
Robert
Known children with Margaret:
Alexander 1853-1855
Margaret 1855-1902
Anne 1858-1925
Georgina 1860-1950
Alexander 1862-1863
Hughena 1865-1945
-
There are two census entries that puzzle me in 1851:
Francis Maule 34 spirit dealer b. Clackmannan
Mary Maule 12 b. Alva, Stirlingshire
John Maule 10 b. Alva, Stirlingshire
Janet Maule 4 b. Alva, Stirlingshire
Eliza Maule 24 niece b. Tillicoultry
Address: Toll Road, Alva, Stirlingshire
These children seem to fit well (with some missing like James) with the ones you mentioned for Francis and wife Janet Cochrane.
Mary 1838-1889
John 1840-1875
Jane 1842-1877
Janet 1845-1930
James 1848-1885
Then there is this further census entry also in 1851:
Francis Maule 47 labourer b. Kincardine, Perthshire
Margt Maule 20 wife b. Clackmannan
Robert Maule 7 son b. P of Logie Dams
Alexander Maule 5 son b. P of Logie
Janet Maule 3 daughter b. P of Logie
Address: Dams, Logie, Clackmannanshire
Monica
-
Margaret and Francis left for Australia by 1855 after birth of a son Alexander in 1853? If so, have you confirmed their parents' details from their death certs there?
There is this shipping entry for a Maule family originally from Stirlingshire arriving in Portland Victoria on 19 Feb 1855:
Francis Maule 35 agr. lab.
Margaret Maule 25
John Maule 13
Jane Maule 11
Janet Maule 8
Monica
-
Hi Monica
Yes I have Margarets death certificate. She died in 1882. Her parents are correct. Francis moved from Australia to New Zealand and died in 1874. Ive ordered his death certificate but its unlikely to be useful and as it wont name his parents. Margaret stayed in Australia. I havent worked out if he left her or was going to move the family out. Some of the children from his first family moved to New Zealand as well whereas his second family stayed in Australia.
Ive seen the two census entries. Most unusual. Could the census have been done further apart than the 30/31 March date so that Francis was recorded in one place and the other weeks apart - pre and post marriage?
Young Alexander died 30 Jan 1855 aboard the ship they emigrated on. I have the death certificate.
-
The two entries for a Francis Maul in 1851 and households give such quite different details in terms of ages, occupations for each Francis and children's names and ages :-\ Different households I would say.
Certainly widowed Francis from 1851 fits well with the Francis who married Margaret and their details on the manifest in 1855.
The other entry has so many details that would match for Alexander. Right age and occupation as labourer. Also the ages of Margaret (who shows as wife on a/try transcript) and the children Robert and Alexander. I am wondering if the 3yr old Janet could have been born to Margaret Hall and Alexander? Big problem that the head of household is showing as Francis! From the general index, SP also have this household as we have, with head showing as Francis. Can't see anything for this Francis in 1841 on SP or Freecen either.
Monica
-
One other thing linking the two entries I see is that Margaret and Francis' marriage/banns are showing in Logie, where we have the household headed up by the 47yr old Francis Maule (who I wondered could be in error for Alexander).
Monica
-
...Francis moved from Australia to New Zealand and died in 1874. Ive ordered his death certificate but its unlikely to be useful and as it wont name his parents. Margaret stayed in Australia. I havent worked out if he left her or was going to move the family out. Some of the children from his first family moved to New Zealand as well whereas his second family stayed in Australia.
Francis' burial index entry in 1874 shows that he had moved over from Australia and had been living in NZ for 7 years. Looks like a long term break between him and Margaret possibly?
Aged 65 in 1874 when he died would make him born c. 1809...adds to the confusion!
Monica
-
Revolution, sorry for all my questions!
What makes you think that Alexander and Francis were brothers? I do not think that marriage between an uncle and niece were permitted by law www.familytreeforum.com/content.php/372-Forbidden-Marriages
Francis's parents are possibly:
Francis MAULE to John MAULE and Jean SCOTLAND
11/08/1812 in Clackmannan
I thought this might fit for Alexander maybe:
Alexander MAULE to John MAULE and Janet SIBBET
chr. 07/01/1804 in Tulliallan
See www.maulefamily.com/fam_grp_charts/mfg_20.htm and www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=248059.0
Now Tulliallan is in Perthshire and very close to Kincardine...which reminds me of that 1851 census entry for a 47 year old Francis Maule again!
Monica
-
Hi Monica
Good to have ones data looked at independently.
In the 1841 census of the Francis with Jamet/Janet I thought this may have been Alexanders daughter born in 1828. I have the baptism. Alex then sends Janet off to work for her uncle.
John Maule and Jane Sibbett potentially had
John (death certificate says John Maule and Janet Sibbett)
Alexander (baptism says John Maule and Janet Sibbett)
Francis
Robert
Anne
As for marriage between cousins. Ive seen some inter family marrying before irrespective of the laws.
As for the other rootschat Maule post. I havent seen the other John Maule and Janet Sibbet children before. At least half of the extra names arent carried in the children of Alexander or Francis. John has a Thomas in his children but that is his wifes fathers name. I haven't been able to find Jane Sibbet or John Maule Sr death
The Robert Maule mentioned in that post is interesting albeit not enlightening as to his linkage
Robert Maul (I cant find his death or anything else) M Catherine Meiklejohn
Thier son
Robert Maule 1831-1901 M Charlotte Rankine
Thier son
(Sir) Robert Maule 1852-1931 M Janet Todd
Could the second Francis Maule 1851 census be Alexander? It could well be. Ive seen odder things!
-
Re Robert Maule and wife Catherine Meiklejohn, like you, hard to find more details on him so far. Thinking he might have died pre 1841? Their son Robert mentioned here www.maulefamily.com/fam_grp_charts/mfg_18.htm was born 1831 as stated https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1K1-Y2N
Haven't found son and parents so far in 1841, likely due to spelling of surname?
His mother and other Maule deaths showing at Tulliallan cemetery indexed here www.memento-mori.co.uk/65.pdf Catherine Meiklejohn Maule died 1878 at the age of 69. Reference there to a Robert Maule but without an age hard to say which Robert Maule he may be.
Monica
-
These look to be some details on Ann, daughter of John and Janet (Sibbet):
Last Name: Black
First Name: John Richard
Date of Birth: 1803
Place of Birth: South Leith
Parents Father: Alexander Black
Parents Mother: Elizabeth
Name of Spouse: widower of Ann Maule, b. 13 Jul 1805 chr. 24 Aug 1805 Tulliallan, Perth, Scotland, to John Maule and Janet Sibbet; she d. 13 May 1875 Simonstown, Cape
Marriage Date:
Marriage Place:
Date of Death: 7 Nov 1883 age 80
Place of Death: Simonstown, Cape
Monica
-
John, son of John and Janet should be easy enough to confirm.
From his details here www.maulefamily.com/fam_grp_charts/mfg_50.htm Family's 1851 entry here:
John Maud 40 lab. b. Kincardine, Perthshire
Catherine Maud 41
Thomas Maud 13
Alexander Maud 8
Ann Maud 8
Address: Bridge End, Tillicoultry, Clackmannanshire
Death on 11 July 1885, Laurieston, Falkirk? Entry on SP index showing as ref 479/2 132 in Falkirk Landward.
Monica
-
Hi Monica
The headstone itself shows Charlotte Rankine d 1890 wife of Robert Maule d 1901 on the same headstone.
On ancestry there is a myriad of conflicting info. One person has Robert Maule who married Catherine Meiklejohn death as 9 Feb 1859 Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland. He is listed as the son of John Maule and Catherine Miller.
I had John Maule 1810-1885 in the 1851,61,71 census but not the 1841 or 1881 census but have his death certificate.
As for Anne/Annie Ive looked at her before and for a reason I didnt note why I discounted her.
https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=179354568
It may have been this that confused the issue when it was probably her sons daughter - https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Black&GSiman=1&GScid=2477429&GRid=179398666&
Theres loads of children and great grandchildren with the middle name Maule
The South African archives has quite a few Maules on file but Ive got no idea how to get the actual documents
DEPOT KAB
SOURCE MOOC
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 6/9/203
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 7685
PART 1
DESCRIPTION BLACK, ANN. (NEE MAULE). DEATH NOTICE.
STARTING 18830000
ENDING 18830000
-
I had John Maule 1810-1885 in the 1851,61,71 census but not the 1841 or 1881 census but have his death certificate.
A possible 1841 entry for the family (as transcribed on a/try):
John Maue 30 Ag Labourer
Catherine Maue 30
John Maue 12
Janet Maue 9
Catherine Maue 6
Thomas Maue 3
Address: Devon Village, Clackmannan
And another mangled version of the surname for 1881:
John Manh 70 Labourer b. Perthshire, Kincardine On Forth
Catherine Manh 71 b. Fife, Saline
Address: St Mary St, Falkirk Landward
Monica
-
These look to be some details on Ann, daughter of John and Janet (Sibbet):
Last Name: Black
First Name: John Richard
Date of Birth: 1803
Place of Birth: South Leith
Parents Father: Alexander Black
Parents Mother: Elizabeth
Name of Spouse: widower of Ann Maule, b. 13 Jul 1805 chr. 24 Aug 1805 Tulliallan, Perth, Scotland, to John Maule and Janet Sibbet; she d. 13 May 1875 Simonstown, Cape
Marriage Date:
Marriage Place:
Date of Death: 7 Nov 1883 age 80
Place of Death: Simonstown, Cape
I wonder if this is the parish marriage entry? https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY91-H2W A big doubt this is the right Ann (connected to the John and Janet (Sibbet) line) given father on Parish register for this marriage shows as Thomas :-\ A number of children are showing for them in the Edinburgh area up to 1850...and then nothing. Likely when this family may have headed off to SA.
Monica
-
Hi Monica
I would never have even though of those variants for Maule. Thank you.
One of the people on ancestry with Annie Maule and John Richard Black uses the birth date of Annie born to John and Janet Maule. They have Annie father as Thomas based on the marriage you found. They have children born 1827-1850 in Scotland (1827), Manchester (1829) and the rest of the ones they have found in Simons Town, South Africa. Looking at some of the birth, census records myself some of these are very incorrect.
The Annie Black memorial has some very precise details on it - "Wife of John Richard Black. Died in Simon's Town aged 69 years and 10 months". This gives the same 13 July 1805 birth date as the John and Janet Maule child birth date.
-
I thought I would attached the marriage of the Ann Maule to John Black you mentioned previously. I noticed that on the left hand side of the register there was mention of John Maule but I cant work out why
Any thoughts?
-
I can't work it out either and why it would have been added some 15 years after the marriage entry in 1825 :-\
Monica
-
Ive sent off a query to Scotlands People to see if they can explain it.
-
Do we have an occupation for John Maule, husband of Janet Sibbett?
I had seen mention of a John Maule from Tulliallan who was a tailor by trade here www.rootschat.com/links/01kpd/
Wondering if a correction was noted on 1 Dec 1840 on the correct name of Ann Maule's father, from a Thomas to John?
Monica
-
Hi Monica
I've not found any family member who has found out what happened to John Maule Sr nor his wife. The death certificate of one of his sons John Jr says John Maule Sr was a Taylor.
Id not seen the book you have linked to. Very interesting! If that's the same person we now know he was alive in 1814
I wonder if the Robert Maules in the same book are John Maule Sr grandson and great grandson
I'm hoping that Scotland's People will also state that Annies father name was corrected. Im hoping they aren't going to say its their date of departure for South Africa as informed by John Maule
I've also bought two of John Black and Anne Maule childrens birth certificates. Like their other countrymen and women the Simons Town births were also registered in Scotland. John Black was a carpenter.
The children of John Black and Ann Maule I've found on scotlandspeople are (some of the children have birth sequence numbers):
Alexander b 1827 (child 1)
Elizabeth 1829 (child 2)
?
Juliana Margaret b 1842 (child 4)
John Richard b 1843
Alice Anna b 1845
James Fergus 1850 (child 7)
-
Family trees shows a third child for them. A John Maule Black 1836 - 39. Buried at the Seaforth Old Burying Ground, Simon's Town, Western Cape, South Africa.
Some burials here for the family I think www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gsr&GSiman=1&GScid=2477429&GSfn=&GSln=black
Monica
-
Hi Monica
And here's the response from Scotlandspeople. My next question is will I need to pay someone to look up the records?
Thank you for your recent email regarding a note in the margin of the marriage record for John Black in 1825.
As there was no set format to record details pre 1855 you never know what you are going to see until you view the actual entry!
There were no correction pages in those days so it is difficult to say if it is an amendment to the father's forename. It is practically impossible to guess why the church elder did this as it is unusual for this to happen especially as the marriage took place at South Leith in 1825 and the added details look to have been recorded in 1840 with a reference to the parish of Tulliallan.
The paragraph does end ' See Minute of Sess(ion)1st December 1840.
This could refer to minutes of a meeting that was recorded in 1840 by the Session Clerk at Tulliallan. We call these records Kirk Session Records and they are available to view in the search rooms at Scotlandspeople but are not yet available online. However, they are in the process of being digitised and will be available on our website in the future. It may be that there is information held in these records that could help you.
-
Would certainly need a personal look up, either someone could do it for you or a paid researcher.
Some details here http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/c/F233821
Monica
-
Hi Monica
I contacted scotlandspeople again on the slight chance they would have someone who might (even if this was a paid service) look it up for me. This is their response. Ill try a lookup request and if that's not able to gbe done Ill employ a researcher.
Although the staff here at the Scotlandspeople centre do not have the time to undertake family history research you can employ a genealogist if you wish.
They will require a fee and as there's no name index to the Kirk Session records it can take a bit time to search them. There is also the possibility that they will not find anything.
We are hoping that these records will be available to view on our website sometime next year but should you want to employ a genealogist you can find a list of these genealogists at www.asgra.co.uk
-
SP have been talking for some time about making the Kirk records available online for some years... I am sure it must be a massive job to undertake as these things can be.
Probably best to enquire what the cost would be to look up this info for you by an experienced researcher. They will have experience of these records and know how to work through them for a better chance of finding something hopefully.
Monica
-
Hi Monica
Good news! When I asked someone from Scotlandspeople (who had responded to me previously) I got the earlier response I posted. A couple of days before I emailed the person above I lodged the same question through Scotlandspeople general email desk and got this (Ive just placed an order for it) -
Thank you for your enquiry of 13 September concerning an annotation on the record of marriage for Ann Maule and John Black which refers to an entry in Kirk Session minutes dated 1 December 1840.
This annotation relates to the parish of South Leith Kirk Session minutes rather than those of Tulliallan.
I have located an entry in Edinburgh, South Leith Kirk Session Minutes, reference CH2/716/35, pages 90-91. The entry, dated 1 December 1840, notes that Ann Maule or Black had requested an extract of her marriage and found that it had been erroneously recorded in the register that her fathers name was Thomas instead of John, and of Leith instead of Kincardine. The Clerk had then inserted the correction in the margin of the register and given a corrected extract. It also notes that Ann Maule had also given the Clerk a letter requesting that the Session allow him to register the births of her two children by her lawful husband, John Black, in the books of this parish where she was married, although they were born in South America (Africa).
-
How brilliant to have it all confirmed this way! Great news :)
Monica
-
Hello I am also linked in to these Maule and I believe that both Robert and Alex in the 1851 census are the children of Alex Maule and Margaret Hall. also it seems that Alex is living with his 78 year old grandmother in the 1861 census. His grandmother being Agnes (Annie) Hall (maiden name Moore). Her death cert (aged 93 in 1872) shows she was the illegit child of Allan Moore, Owner of a Salt Pan and Mary Martin formerly Drysdale. She is also shown in the 1841 census as Anne Hall by then a widow. I hope this links in with your stuff a bit. I would love for this to open up some connections. Kind regards, Jason
-
Hi Jason
I've found the Hall records as well. Quite an interesting family. Not many have looked at the Halls so I'm interested to see what you have found. I've got a bunch of baptism, marriage and death records.
-
Hi Jason
I think Anne in the 1851 census with Ann Harrover and Agnes Lambert?. I have her in the 1841, 1851 and 1871 census
I can see an 'Agnes Hole' with an 'Allexander Maul' in the 1861 census
-
Hi all
Ive finally started working on a blog about my Maule family - descendants of John Maule and Janet Sibbett.
For the children of Alexander Maule and Margaret Hall I am missing the the baptisms of Alexander Maule around 1844 and Janet Hall around 1849 but I have the earlier baptisms of their other children. Based on the 1851 census info being wrong for Francis Maule. Alexander Jr marriage certificate name his father as Alexander.
I still haven't confirmed the death of John Maule and Janet Sibbett
There is a John Maule who was buried in on 9 March 1823 in Tillicoultry, Clackmannanshire, Scotland and a Janet Maule buried on 16 Apr 1816 in Tillicoultry, Clackmannanshire, Scotland
There is a John Maule who died in St Cuthberts on 25 Feb 1828 who was a Wright, aged 70.
Ive removed Francis Maule as a sibling to Alexander Maule Sr and given him the parents John Maule and Jean Scotland making his marriage at best to a distant cousin or an entirely unrelated Maule line. It would be good to find a male Maule from that line and YDNA test.
Im still searching for a male descendant of Alexander Maule and Margaret Halls to see if I can find someone who would like to take a YDNA test and prove/disprove the link to other Maule family lines. So far no luck. I would pay for the test.
My cousin paid a researcher (with a good reputation) to do some family history research and the results were interesting. I shared the results with a couple of Maule family historians who also didnt like the information provided. A lot of research has been undertaken previously and time and time again proven to be correct but in this case it was left of center.
Ive paid for the Kirk sessions to be searched for 1741-1760 and 1801-1882. Not a lot of records of the family.
10 April 1814 John McDonald and Jean Maule both of this parish (Clackmannan) irregularly married at Edinburgh on 4 May 1913
I also purchased the baptism record for Robert Maule born 1831. It was not registered until 1852 when his son was registering the baptism of his own son Robert. Robert b 1831 was the illegitimate son of Robert Maule - sheep farmer and Catherine MeikleJohn.