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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Kilkenny => Topic started by: cattao on Saturday 02 September 17 09:02 BST (UK)
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Have a birth cert of son Samuel Wilson born 1862 in Sydney, NSw. Column for date and place of marriage of parents, James Wilson and Ann Murram??? says.....1855, County Kilkenny. Other records (immigration to NSW) give James birthplace Cavan.
Three Children born in Kilkenny Ireland (from imm records) James, Jane and Joseph Wilson 1850 - 1855 before they arrived in Sydney ion 1860. I'm wondering just where to go next please.
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What Irish records have you looked at?
What religious denomination were they?
Civil Registration began in 1864, although non-Catholic marriages may be recorded from 1845.
You may find them on IrishGenealogy.ie?
Catholic Registers are at Registers.nli.ie.
But you need to know in which parish to look, as there are no indexes.
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You are researching the origins of this couple?
.. James Wilson and Ann Murram?.."
Who is the informant for the birth certificate, 1862?
The marriage reference, 1855, might suggest it was a second marriage for James or Ann. Ann might not have married as MURRAM?.
What other BDM certificates do you have. It would be useful to resolve the uncertainty of family name for Ann...is it difficult to read? Any other children born in NSW?
How do the older WILSON children name their parents on their marriage certificates?
Do you have death certificates for parents James and Ann?
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Field and House books
Cavan
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01knh/
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There is a surname "Marum". Found mainly in north County Kilkenny and County Laois.
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possible ?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGXK-4N3
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Thanks for above info.
Just started on this research,so just googled Kilk records to get a feel of it all, so nothing in depth at the moment.
Family was C of E. they arrived in Sydney 1860 on Hannah More, have seen all these entries. No parish mentioned in either Kil or Cavan on records seen so far.
Informant on B/C for Samuel was James Wilson, father.
Yes trying to find origins of James Wilson and Ann Murram??? Copy is not a good one of birth cert.
of Samuel. Ann's name is longer than Murram (which is clear on D/C of Samuel) looks like ***ing on B/.C.
At this early stage in the research no other certs have been obtained, I am working on James W. death year through Sands directories and no other M/C obtained for the children. I have original copy of Samuel's bap mentions James and Ann as parents and also other children born in Sydney. Need to work on children and get certs which hopefully should give more parents' info!
Checked out the fam search entry, thanks for that.
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What is on the marriage certificate for Samuel WILSON, b. 1862?
Who / where / when did Samuel marry? Is he the 1932 death, Granville?
Samuel's baptism certificate names other children?
Can you list the details on this baptism certificate.
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No M/C obtained as yet for Samuel Wilson and his bride was Emily Frances TALTY in 1896. At least 5 children to this couple.They were married in Newtown could be St Stephens, (not all that far from St Peters where the family lived. This will be the important one to get. I know the area quite well. (Quite an interesting Talty tree on Anc.)
Samuel's baptism is from the St Peters Church of England Cooks River church records just released by Ancestry gives birth date 24 May 1862 and bap 22 June and the other children are the same birth date and bap date, parents James and Ann Wilson, Cooks River, labourer.
Thanks for your interest and help.
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This is what I am seeing for "Hannah More" arr. 6 May 1860, passengers -
WILSON James, 29yrs, labourer, NP Cavan
WILSON Anne, 23yrs, wife, NP Kilkenny
WILSON Jane, 4yrs, daughter NP Kilkenny
WILSON James, 2yrs, son NP Kilkenny
WILSON Joseph, 6/12, son, NP Kilkenny all are C of E..........Remarks......R R .....
First child b. ~ 1856?
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Yes, you've got them. They have been assisted immigrants but I can't find them in the Immigrant Deposit journals which I have to work on. Not quite sure what the RR is in the last column. This is another way to find homes.
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You need to use Australian resources to find enough information about this family, then look to Ireland. You need a family name for Anne..........Samuel WILSON's marriage certificate.
Use this site, https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/search_form?id=74
search with family name WILSON.........looking for Randwick Asylum for Destitute Children
it finds -
WILSON James 10 yrs (discharged) 07/01/1869
WILSON Joseph 9 yrs (discharged) 07/01/1869
WILSON Samuel 7 yrs (discharged) 07/01/1869
This looks like your family. You might suspect that something has happened to James and / or Anne before this date. These asylum records do not contain much, but should name the person into whose care the children were released. James and Joseph are recorded on the one page, 196. and Samuel one page after. You might get the p. 196 to see the discharge details. It might be enough to work with, otherwise get p197 as well. All released to the same person?
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Many thanks for latest info. I am here in NSW, I think hurricane Harvey is on its way as I write. Will check out the Randwick asylum records.
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Murray?
Skoosh
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Looking at the asylum records it appears father placed the boys in for about a month early 1869.
What started out as a simple 'help a friend' do his f.h.has turned into something very very interesting.
Not that anyone's f.h. is dull! Many thanks for your interest. Now to pull out the big guns and find the demise of James and Ann and perhaps their ancestors??
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re the children in the Randwick Asylum. How did you find that entry please, I'm interested in how you came upon it, can you advise please. when you get a moment. I've seen the entries and now another avenue to follow
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Transcription of Samuel's marriage to Emily Frances TALTY just received shows - no mother's maiden name listed.Father ties in with James. "family story" coming to light says James remarried and the boys didn't get on with the new wife so left home and nothing more to do with their father. Haven't as yet sorted out the siblings' of Samuel marriages next job. A fair amount of sleuthing to be done here.
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There are baptisms in the Church of Ireland parish of Grangesilvia (Grange Silvae / Grange Sylvae) that potentially fit 2 of their children very well, if the 'Hannah More' passenger information is accurate:
- a James Wilson baptised on 30 May 1858 (DOB 22 April 1858), the address given as Barraghcore and the parents as James Wilson, a gardener, and Anne (perhaps James worked on the Barraghcore estate / demesne?);
- a John Joseph Wilson baptised on 27 November 1859 (DOB 2 November 1859), the address given as 'Goresbridge', same parents as above but James given as a labourer.
Barraghcore / Baracore is about a mile north of Goresbridge (note, the whole area is right on the county border with Carlow). The historic OSI 6" series map location for Goresbridge is here (pan up a bit - following the river - for Barraghcore House):
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,668057,653826,10,7
Note that Grangesilvia (Grange Silvae / Grange Sylvae) fits in very nicely with the marriage posted by dathai at reply #5.
Edited to add: BTW, an 1853 Dublin newspaper carried a brief account (for leasing purposes) of the house and demesne of Barraghcore, it was described as suited for a Gentleman's family, a mile from Goresbridge, with three reception rooms, seven 'best bedrooms' beside servants' apartments with a 'superior underground story', it comprised 70 Irish acres in grass with magnificent views, tastefully planned and laid out, situated on the banks of the river Barrow which was 'abound with fish'. It had very extensive offices and a fine walled-in garden which was well stocked with fruit trees.
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Wonderful, James lists himself as a gardener on the church baps for his Australian born children - St Peters Church of England records in Anc. just another clue. That map looks interesting will chase it up. Many many thanks
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Even better, Griffiths Valuation shows someone with the uncommon name of John Merlin living in the townland of Duninga (you can see it in the OSI historical map link that I posted), the local print date was 1850, the lessor was John Handy (the Handy's owned / lived in Barraghcore House), John Merlin was recorded as being in the gate lodge of all places, so Dathai's marriage is looking very good indeed.
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch
There is a civil death registration for John Merlin who died on 26 December 1881, he was recorded as a 75 year old married caretaker from Barraghcore and the informant present at death was his wife Rachel Merlin of Barraghcore.
Edited to add: To follow up on Dathai's marriage, the 'irishgenealogy' website shows a James Wilson marriage registered at Kilkenny district on page 299 of volume 6 for Q1 of 1855, the same website shows an Anne Malin and an Anne Meelin on the same page, if you want to see for yourself everything written in the original registration, you can either wait for that website to digitise the civil record online (for free viewing - a work in progress) or order a research copy from GRO (fee).
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... There is a civil death registration for John Merlin who died on 26 December 1881, he was recorded as a 75 year old married caretaker from Barraghcore and the informant present at death was his wife Rachel Merlin of Barraghcore ...
Now some pure speculation, but given how relatively uncommon the name is I'm just wondering if Rachel wasn't John's first wife, this marriage over the county border at Dunleckney was only 7 miles away (the 'irishgenealogy' website has the record indexed, but not digitised online yet):
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGXV-P1N
Also a purely speculative punt on the name, but there is this listing of a marriage licence bond for a John Merlin and Jane Bedlow in 1833 in the Diocese of Ossory:
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/dm/IRE_DIOC_007246538_00092.pdf
Both references are worth no more than noting for now in case of future leads, you can always discard them later as needed. I'm afraid you may struggle on the James Wilson side unless you obtain more detail at the Australian end to point back more specifically within Ireland, the name is much more common.
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Many thanks for all the info received. I found out the RR in the shipping is remittance received, so whether it was paid prior to leaving Ireland or by someone already in the colony is another avenue. Our NSW state records have these docs but difficult for me to access and they won't go looking for me! I'm tipping the boss of the House where he worked as a gardener may have helped. Like my Limerick family who were assisted by the local landowner. May be worth a subscription to RootsIreland, will put it in the melting pot.
Thanks again