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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Essex => England => Essex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: peter winn on Saturday 02 September 17 17:39 BST (UK)
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I am looking for the family of Rosamond Challis born in horndon Essex about 1858. I can find no information about this lady. Could it be that she lived close by but was born in horndon. We are trying to find her husband. We know that she later moved towards London.
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Hi
Welcome to rootschat
Where do you have evidence of Rosamond :-\
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in a census from london 1901
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Is she the Rosamund C Booth (widow) living with William Challis West and his wife Gertrude in Brentford, Middlesex
RG13 / 1188 f85 p5
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There is a looks like Rosanna Challis aged 4yrs, living in Knockholt Kent, born Harrow on the Hill, Middlesex.She is with her grandparents, Matthew and Mary Challis, in 1861.
Someone has added alternate info on Ancestry and put Rosamond Challis West.
Matthew John Challis baptised April 16th, 1793, son of Anthony and Mary at Vange, Essex.
He is listed as born c1801 in 1861, so maybe telling porkies about his age,
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Yes! ;D where the hell did you get that. My sister has a death card date from a West and we could not work out who or why he was. We are trying to find out the background of Rosamond Mary Challis later Booth. Born 1858. She is a very interesting lady who does not fit in anywhere. She said, that when she was young, she came from a yeoman farmer Whatever that means and used to go to church on Sundays in a Landau.
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Yes! ;D where the hell did you get that. My sister has a death card date from a West and we could not work out who or why he was. We are trying to find out the background of Rosamond Mary Challis later Booth. Born 1858. She is a very interesting lady who does not fit in anywhere. She said, that when she was young, she came from a yeoman farmer Whatever that means and used to go to church on Sundays in a Landau.
1861
RG9/462/120/2
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I presumed that this was William Wests marriage
Marriages Jun 1898
Gertrude Louise Allen
William Challis West
Brentford 3a 227
(William was a widower when he married Gertrude - Father is Godfrey )
This looks like his baptism :-\
William Challis West
Born 22 October 1861
30 Jan 1876
Father Godfrey West
Mother Mary West
Bermondsey St Paul
Marriage Sep qtr 1855 :-\
Mary Challis
Godfrey West
Sevenoaks RD 2a 53
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1871 census has father Godfrey born Horndon
RG10 / 631 f113 p45
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You professionals are getting me going.
The card from my sister says "Daniel West age 84 died 4th April 1949 bury st Edmunds cemetery" who is he?
What relationship could "William Challis West and his wife Gertrude in Brentford, Middlesex" have to "Rosamond Challis" Later "Challis Booth"? I don't think a brother or father. Could he be a cousin?
All very mysterious.
The family bible got taken by my uncle's new wife (he was about 95 at the time) and she refused to give it back and it was destroyed. Challis Booth was his Grandmother. That's why we are trying to sort it out for our Grandchildren.
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Thinking about it, if she was a widow in 1901 then her children must have been born 1900 or before. Which matches up with one daughter who was born about 1880. Still trying to get the connection between Challis, West and or Booth.
Thank god on the other side of the family everything has been done and is at Somerset House. :)
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In 1871, she is down as Roseamond Challis West, living in Dartford Kent and the niece of William and Fanny West
RG10/884/26/2
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I assumed as at her death she was a Challis Booth her Maiden name would be Challis. Now I am starting to wonder. Could she have had a maiden name Challis West? That would explain after being a widow she lived with her brother or whoever.
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I can see two children for her, may be others, These two born in Lambeth, Charles Matthew Booth, born 1886 and Esther born 1887.
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There are two relatives Their names were Nellie and Hettie but what is the correct name Henrietta or? what. I have a suspicion that these are her children. This is one of the problems. Here is a big family all dead. With a lot of girls who changed their names by marriage and I only know them as aunty so and so. As children one accepted what the parents said. So uncle Jim could be the next door neighbour or a great uncle, a cousin, one just accepted it.
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Hi in 1891 is she the Rose Booth b c 1857 Essex married to a Frederick in Lambeth?
Census Ref RG12/400/103/18
Keyboard86
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don't think so there is a death card that said "Rosamond challis booth interred in manor park cemetery died 11th march 1947 (born 1858)." 89 years old.
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Hi again, the first child on the 1891 is a Rose M Booth b c 1880 London, there is a birth registration of a Rose Mary Booth June qtr 1879 St Olave mothers maiden name West?
Keyboard86
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Hi and the first son shown is a Frederick Godfrey Booth March qtr 1884 Lambeth mmn West
Keyboard86
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Hi again, in 1881 census she is Rose Booth 24 occ Seamstress b Horndon married to Frederick
Census Ref RG11/596/121/14
Keyboard86
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The 1939 register gives her birthdate as 14th June, 1857.
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I have a cheep computor program that makes family trees. It is very, very slowly starting to match up. Thanks everybody so far. Please excuse my stupidity but this is the first time in my life that I have done this. There is still a long way to go e.g who are hettie and nellie? Who was this West who had a death card?
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Hi in the Booth family were an Esther b 1887 and an Ellen b 1889 possibly later known as Hettie & Nellie?
Keyboard86
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Hi again, in the 1911 census I can see a Charles Matthew Booth 25 with a Rosamond Challis Booth 54 and an Esther Booth 24 in Bethnal Green
In 1901 an Ellen Booth 12 b Clapham is shown as Niece to a Daniel West 35 occ Harness Maker b Bermondsey and his wife Catherine ( nee Swan) 37 b Spitalfields, residing at 4, Brook Green Road, Hammersmith
Census Ref RG13/46/13/18
Ellen is also with Daniel/Catherine in 1911 census
In 1901 a Hettie Booth 14 b Vauxhall is shown as Niece to a Ray C West 30 b Bermondsey
Census Ref RG13/305/137/13
On the 2nd August 1915 Esther Booth aged 27 married a William George Wood 28 at St James the Less, Bethnal Green Father Frederick Booth ( Deceased) one of the witnesses was Charles Matthew Booth.
When Charles Matthew Booth married Louisa Mason 4th August 1918 St James the Less he gave his Father as Frederick CHARLES Booth ( Deceased )
Keyboard86
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The 1939 register gives her birthdate as 14th June, 1857.
Odd that on the 1871 census with Godfrey & family is a Thomas Matthew West b September qtr 1857 Orsett v4a page 104 mmn Challis, so how could this be, was he her twin?
Keyboard86
PS An on-line tree suggests he was born 4th July 1857 Horndon on the Hill.
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I am going to try and digest this info bur it seems to be making sense. I will get some info on the Wood I think she must be the the Nellie. A Hettie was married to a Will Wood and lived in London. Is Hettie a short form for Ester? The Nellie was married to a King in the Bury St Edmond's area. I will see if my sister, when she comes back from her hols, has any info stored in our mothers wooden box of papers.
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Is Hettie a short form for Ester?
It can be :) Esther is also sometimes Hester
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Aren't you all clever. Please take a plastic medal. ;D
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Interesting Rose Mary Booth married a harness maker Whitten from St. Saviour Southwark. I wonder if they met through Daniel West 35 occ Harness Maker b Bermondsey.
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I cannot work out who is William West and his wife who lived in Dartford. Was he a brother of Godfrey West, Miss Challis West father? She was only 14 at that time.
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don't think so there is a death card that said "Rosamond challis booth interred in manor park cemetery died 11th march 1947 (born 1858)." 89 years old.
Deceased online has the burial
Booth
first names
Rosamond Challis
burial date 18 March 1947
location Newham
Five others in grave
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That matches up to what we know it was a common grave. No gravestone.
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There is Betty (Elizabeth?) Booth I don't think she married therefore could be a grandchild of either Charles Mathew Booth or Frederick George Booth. All I know is she lived in the 60s in Newbury Park Ilford. The question about Thomas Mathew web could be answered if the birth dates are; as it seems to be; 1 year appart. There seems to be some difference whether the births are 1857 or 1858
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I think I see Daniel West in 1939, living in Stepney, retired master sadler, widowed, birthdate 6th February,1866.
Further down same page is an Emily L Challis, single, birthdate 3rd February, 1876, occupation, trouser machinist, in the household of a Fewell family.
I can start with the emily bit at the moment. At the first look it seems to be a same name case.
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Daniel West is the son of Godfrey and Mary.
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OK Thank,s got that one put it in my little list. I think it is fantastic what all of you have achieved so far.
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I have found the Sevenoaks address And photos from the farm and house built about 1700
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Hi found this, which compares nicely with the 4 year old on the 1861 census
Baptism Rosamond Challis West 10th August 1856 Halstead, Kent Father Godfrey Mother Mary
Her birth registration is FEMALE West September qtr 1856 Orsett v 4a page 99 mmn Challis
Keyboard86
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I don't quite understand (as usual). If Rosamond Mary West was bonr in Horndon 1857/8. How comes she is Batised earlier in Halstead in 1856? Whereby I have come across Orsett in the last few days. It is in Essex not so far away from Horndon
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My sister has just come back from her trip and she asks is there any info about Mr Booth? Rosamond Challis Booth's husband. Also Frederick Charles Whitten her son-in-law?
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My sister has just come back from her trip and she asks is there any info about Mr Booth? Rosamond Challis Booth's husband. Also Frederick Charles Whitten her son-in-law?
I have just been wondering is that a new query?
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I don't quite understand (as usual). If Rosamond Mary West was bonr in Horndon 1857/8. How comes she is Batised earlier in Halstead in 1856? Whereby I have come across Orsett in the last few days. It is in Essex not so far away from Horndon
Keyboard has given an alternative birth registration
Hi found this, which compares nicely with the 4 year old on the 1861 census
Baptism Rosamond Challis West 10th August 1856 Halstead, Kent Father Godfrey Mother Mary
Her birth registration is FEMALE West September qtr 1856 Orsett v 4a page 99 mmn Challis
Keyboard86
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I don't know at the moment where I got the birthplace as Horndon Essex. In 1891 Census said Rose Booth born c.1857 Essex. She was a Rosamond Mary West so is that the same person?
If the birthplace was Halstead Kent then it would make more sense. Her parents lived at Park Farm Halstead near Sevenoaks. But there is again this difference on the birth date. 1856, 1857,1858. Is this normal?
1871 circa 13 years old in Dartford with Aunt Fanny and Uncle William.
Then suddenly at 24 she is as a seemstress born in Horndon where her father comes from and married to a Frederick Booth????? But it does not say where she lived.
BIG BIG Question are we talking about 2 different persons? The Halstead one matches up with what my sister's information as a small child.
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Hi again, the Female West birth certificate if purchased I believe will show as parents Godfrey & Mary, the occupation of Godfrey being Saddler or similar, on the 1861 census for the family we have 3 children at home, Thomas Matthew West 3 b Horndon on the Hilll, Maria Mary West 2 b Plumstead and Godfrey 1 b Plumstead, all have mmn Challis
This family moved around Essex/Kent/Surrey possibly all the children were baptised in the parish Church of Halstead?
Godfrey and Mary married in Sevenoaks 1855 possibly in the same church as the baptism in 1856.
Who registered the death of Rosamond?
Keyboard86
PS as a matter of course I would suggest that all those who have assisted on this thread, would never search by the supposed actual year of birth but given birth year +/- 2
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The death of Rosamond was found in her granddaughters wooden box with lots of papers. We have talked to the cemetary and they have confirmed that she lyes in a common grave with more persons and no stone. We even have the plotz number. My sister and I can remember her dying so I think the dates are pretty correct. I am just worried about different birth towns and different spellings of her christian names.
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Hi read my previous post carefully, I asked for instance who registered the death of Rosamond?
Keyboard86
Maybe Frederick Charles Booth called her Rose, after all it was him who filled in the census return?
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Sorry I don't quite understand who regestered the death. I presume a doctor.
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Sorry I don't quite understand who regestered the death. I presume a doctor.
OK so you do not have her death certificate, using your example of a "Doctor" how did he know how old she was?
Keyboard86
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PS as a matter of course I would suggest that all those who have assisted on this thread, would never search by the supposed actual year of birth but given birth year +/- 2
Certainly true when I do searches. :)
You only have to look at the 1939 register where people have given their full birth dates to see that people often did not know which year they were born. They also often could not spell properly or they used 'pet' names on official documents.
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The death and birth year were established by her daughter and son -in-law. Both were sound and could read and write.
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The death and birth year were established by her daughter and son -in-law. Both were sound and could read and write.
;D Well working on this premise there is another Rosamond Challis West out there b 1858 somewhere, possibly with parents Godfrey & Mary or whoever?
Keyboard86
PS this 1858 Rosamond Challis West "married" a Booth and produced HETTIE and NELLIE
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We found a Hettie Sand a nellie that could be her daughters. I knew them. My mother used to call one couple aunty hettie and uncle Will
This matches
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We found a Hettie Sand a nellie that could be her daughters. I knew them. My mother used to call one couple aunty hettie and uncle Will
This matches
But as I said, was the mother of Hettie/Esther and Ellen/Nellie a Rosamond Challis West/Booth b c 1858?
Keyboard86
PS look at my post 23 and answer that?
And working on my reply above, would you agree we have located the incorrect Rosamond Challis West b 1856 not c 1857/8?
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Post 23 looks correct. She was quite fond of Hettie's son Len (Lennie) a musician. I think the burial details would be correct because her eldest daughter Rose Mary and son-in-law Frederick Charles Whitten (1875 to 1948) were living with her in the same house in Bethnal Green for many years.
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Sorry forgot, there are no cetificates of any kind. The lady that took the bible took them as well.
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;D Peter, answer all the questions, is there another Rosamond Challis West out there b c 1858?
Keyboard86
No certificates of any kind, so who has the death certicate for Rosamond Challis Booth?
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Nobody. Her grandson married again when is was very old and he had verything and his widow refused to give us the documents e.g. Birth, death certificates Family Bible so we have absolutely nothing. SHe is long dead. I think Rosamond must have had a son beccause in the 70s there was a relative Betty Booth who lived with her mother and she must have been close (relative?) as she travelled a long way to my mothers funeral.. There are photos from before the war showing Betty so from the age point of view I don't know if she is the granddaughter or great-granddaughter.
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Nobody. Her grandson married again when is was very old and he had verything and his widow refused to give us the documents e.g. Birth, death certificates Family Bible so we have absolutely nothing.
Not many of us are lucky enough to have had certificates passed on to us and have had to purchase them to back up our research as we have also started with nothing. If you really want to establish that what has been posted here is accurate this is what you will have to do. We can only work on indexes and if we are lucky parish registers that are online. One of the 'rules' of family history is never believe what you are told, always check it ;D
I would suggest that you make a 'tree' from the information on this post then come back with your queries. You are asking about 'Betty Booth' also Mr Booth? Rosamond Challis Booth's husband and Frederick Charles Whitten her son-in-law. See what you can find by using GRO indexes on their website & freebmd you could probably see the answers yourself. When you have done this come back to us with your queries we will be happy to help.
GRO website
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
Freebmd
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Rosie ;D
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Hi again, you asked earlier if the birth date of say Thomas Matthew West could be incorrect, there is a death of a Thomas M West Dec qtr 1928 Lambeth 1d 226 aged 71, his sister on 1861 census at home with Godfrey & Mary was Maria Mary b March qtr 1859 Lewisham, being January to March registration, it could even be she was born in December 1858?
When Maria Mary West aged 19 married a William Charles Barratt 20 occ Farrier 10th June 1878 St Dunstan in the East her father was Godfrey occ Harness Maker, one of the witnesses looks to be a Rosamond Challis West?
Maria Mary Barratt in 1939 was born 8th January 1859 and died in Southwark 1942 aged 83
So if Thomas Matthew West was born 4th July 1857 ( Sept qtr registration) and Maria Mary West b 8th January 1859 ( March qtr registration) how can Rosamond be born either 14th June 1857 or 1858?
Keyboard86
EDIT Also noted when Thomas Matthew West married Jane Taylor in 1877, the witnesses were Fredk Booth and Rose West
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Thanks I have started a tree we wil see what happens.
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Thanks I have started a tree we wil see what happens.
Look at my amendment above!
Keyboard86
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Will do. Pause for today just arrived in our flat near Malaga 34 Cel. Now must go shopping.
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Back from hols I think I will have to start again. There are too many iffs.
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Back from hols I think I will have to start again. There are too many iffs.
Maybe if you purchase some of the certificates you will be able to confirm information
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When I can work out which is correct When I know, I will buy the certificates for the grandchildren. I do not know if the Essex link is correct or the Sevenoaks i.e. Sattler versis Farmer. Gut feeling says farmer in view of the fact that she said she came from a large country house. An explanation could be:- the father died when she was 6 years old and she got farmed out to an Aunty and Uncle.
I believe the answer may be in some of the local papers births and deaths etc.
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I am going to try and digest this info bur it seems to be making sense. I will get some info on the Wood I think she must be the the Nellie. A Hettie was married to a Will Wood and lived in London. Is Hettie a short form for Ester? The Nellie was married to a King in the Bury St Edmond's area. I will see if my sister, when she comes back from her hols, has any info stored in our mothers wooden box of papers.
OK so it would appear we have located the incorrect Rosamond Challis West b 1856 not 1858, ok so even though the story of Farmer/Landeau Carriage etc, does not at present stack up with the evidence of Booth marriage with children Hettie & Nellie we will await developments, as a matter of interest you mentioned about Nellie and Bury St Edmunds, this is what I located:-
For some reason at marriage and 1939 Ellen/Nellie gave a birth year of 1893:-
Marriage Frank Benjamin King 27 to Ellen Booth 29 20th December 1922 St Peter, Mile End Old Town
Grooms Father Frank Benjamin King
Brides Father Frederick Booth
Death Frank B King b abt 1895 died Sept qtr 1951 Bury St Edmunds aged 56
Death Ellen King born 15th June 1888 died Sept qtr 1982 Bury St Edmunds aged 94
Keyboard86
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OK final bit for tonight, going on your gut feeling, my fact finding suggests you are incorrect :)
Re Esther Booth/Wood
School Admission Esther Booth born 18th January 1887 admitted to Heathfield School, Lambeth 19th August 1889 Father Fred Booth address 11, Alfred Place ( This is the address Frederick/Rose etc are living in 1891 census)
In 1939 she as Esther Wood married to William G Wood gives the same day/month but 1888, her death was Esther Wood born 18th January 1887 died September qtr 1979 Hackney aged 92
Death William George Wood born 3rd September 1887 March qtr 1974 Epping, Essex aged 86
Probate Frederick Charles Whitten of 11, Cyprus Street, Globe Road, Bethnal Green E2 died 18th October 1948 at Bethnal Green Hospital, Cambridge Road, E2, Administration London 22nd December to Rose Mary Whitten Widow Effects £228 2s 10d
Rose Mary Whitten on 1939 was shown as born 25th May 1879, there is a death of a Rose M WHITTON b abt 1878 March qtr 1962 Woolwich aged 84
Probate Godfrey West of 2, York Villa, Richmond Road, Twickenham, Middlesex, Gentleman, died 7th September 1901 Administration London 16th January to William Challis West and Daniel West occ Saddlers and Harness Makers Effects £1826 11s 3d
So bear in mind this looks to be the Godfrey West with wife Mary who had a daughter Rosamond Challis West in 1856?
PS He is not a Farmer as well!
Keyboard86
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Rose M Whitton is definitely not Rose Mary Whitton. Rose M Whitton died in Kent on the 26th Feb 1960 age 80 and is buried in Gillingham. Data from tombstone.
if Geofrey West.
I will check back with my sister. She told me the Mrs Booth visited Kew Gardens and went to church in a Landau. Also my sister made the comment about gentleman farmer.
What we do know is, she had a good education and had perfect manners and was very Ladylike. We all said she was like Queen Mary of Teck.
If Godfrey West of 2 York Villa was her grandfather then he died when she was about 47.
If she was the daughter of the Halstead Geofrey West the he died when she was about 6.
The Hettie and Nellie all match up. Also Mr Whitten is correct. He was a saddler. He worked for Charringtons Brewery. He was also responsible for all their horses.
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Missed a bit. Godfrey West left about £ 3,000,000 by today's terms. I hope that he was the right one there may be a huge inheritance some where ;D ;D ;D
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Hi again, you had a lot of information that you held back that could have assisted myself and others much earlier, re Rose M WHITTON with the new information you have supplied her death therefore appears to be the Rosemary Whitten March qtr 1960 Sittingbourne 5b 860 aged 80, although I would point out that the spelling in 1939 was Whitton?!
Re visits to Kew Gardens a journey from Richmond/Richmond Road is not too far?
Godfrey West/Mary were the parents of Rosamond, also the Daniel for which your sister holds the death card for?
Please can you supply all the information you have with reference to Park Farm, Halstead nr Sevenoaks, Kent as from my findings stretching back to at least 1800 the Head of family was always a Godfrey with occ of a Saddler?
Keyboard86
PS The Grandfather ( Godfrey) of Rosamond died 7th November 1864?
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I am very sorry I did not think this was useful. :'( I am wondering if I have got it wrong. I have found out there are several Halsteads amongst others Kent near Sevenoaks and Essex Suffolk border. Quote from a Newpaper 1855 "Mr. Godfrey West of Horndon-on-the-Hill, to Mary, eldest daughter of Mr. Matthew Chsllis, Psrk Farm, Halstead. near Ssvenoaks" and another newspaper quote " Mr. Godfrey West. formorly Hornden-on-the-Hili." The Park Farm is in essex on the suffolk border and near sevenoaks. That is why I don't understand.
A Park farm can be found under this address Park Farm Deerleap Lane Knockholt Sevenoaks KENT TN14 7NP
A 2nd Park farm can be found under this link
https://www.zoopla.co.uk/property-history/park-farm/park-road/wickham-st-paul/halstead/co9-2px/836859
Re: Whitton or Whitten I believe this is a commen mistake. Mrs Whitten died in a Hsopital near Sittingbourne. Was buried in Gillingham her daughter is now in the same grave.
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The newspaper copy reads -
10th inst at Halstead, Kent ....Mr Godfrey West of Horndon on the Hill to Mary eldest daughter of Mr Matthew Challis of Park Farm, Halstead near Sevenoaks
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How do you do it? I spend hours and hours trying to find something and you come straightway with the answers ???
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A Godfrey West died
WEST, GODFREY 64 Order
GRO Reference: 1864 D Quarter in MAIDSTONE Volume 02A Page 304 which is near Sevenoaks. If correct mean rosamond was about 6 years old. and The richmand man is not the father.
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Maidstone registration district covers these places
https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/maidstone.html
Sevenoaks reg district covers Halstead
https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/sevenoaks.html
The death you have found is for a Godfrey West late of 33 Parrock Street, Gravesend who died at Marden near Staplehurst according to the probate index
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Hi again, so working purely on the basis of the newspaper article we have in 1851:-
Matthew Challis 48 occ Farm Bailiff b Vange
Mary 44 b Horndon on the hill
MARY 17 b Dunton
Thomas 13 b Vange
William 10 b Stone
Maria 8 b Crayford
Ray 5 b Crayford
Residing at Park Farm, Knockholt, Bromley, Kent
Census Ref HO107/1606/277/33
1861 census:-
Godfrey West 33 occ Saddler b Horndon on the Hill
Mary 23? b DUNTON
Thomas M 3 b Horndon on the Hill
Maria M 2 b Plumpstead
Godfrey 1 b Plumpstead
Residing at 10, Arthur Road, Plumpstead
Census Ref RG09/408/108/33
1871 census:-
(You may recognize a few of these names, including the Daniel)!
Godfrey West 43
Mary 31? b DUNTON
Thomas M 14
Maria M 13
Godfrey 12
William C 6
Daniel 5
Ray C 2
Residing at Artillery Place, Southwark
Census Ref RG10/631/113/45
And this is the family Rosamond C West is with in 1871:-
William Challis 28 b Stone
Fanny E 24? b Under River
Matthew J 76 Father b Vange
Mary 59 Mother b Horndon on the Hill
Maria Bailey 25 Married/Sister b Crayford
Maria M Bailey 2 Niece b Knockholt
Annie J Bailey 2 months Niece b Middlesex
Rosamond C West 14 Niece b Horndon on the Hill
Residing at High Street, Dartford
Census Ref RG10/884/26/2
Keyboard86
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My god I must digest that all. ??? ??? ???
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Hi again, and to give you a bit more:-
1841 census:-
Cotton Farm, Stone, near Dartford
Matthew Challis 40 occ Farmer
Mary 30
MARY 7
Thomas 4
William 4 months b Kent
All others Not born in County
Census Ref HO107/485/ 8/12 / 17
Birth Registration William Challis March qtr 1841 Dartford v5 page 96 mmn Fordham
Keyboard86
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According to my now family tree we have
Godfrey West about b. 1828 Hornton on the Hill
Mary Challis Wife b. 1838 Dunton m. 1858 Hornton on the hill
Child:-William Challis b.1861 Baptised 30th Jan 1876 m Gertrud Allen June 1898
Child:-Thomas Mathew b.04 July1857 Horndon on the Hill
Child:-Daniel West b.06 Feb 1866 d. 04 April1949 Bury St Edmond's Married to Catherine Swan
Child:-Rosamond Mary West b. circa 1858 d. 11 March1947 Bethnal Green married to Frederick Charles Booth
So the questions arise who were the other persons in the census '61 and '71?
who was Mr West who left a lot of money?
etc
who can we with a high certainty delete?
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Hi again, you asked earlier if the birth date of say Thomas Matthew West could be incorrect, there is a death of a Thomas M West Dec qtr 1928 Lambeth 1d 226 aged 71, his sister on 1861 census at home with Godfrey & Mary was Maria Mary b March qtr 1859 Lewisham, being January to March registration, it could even be she was born in December 1858?
When Maria Mary West aged 19 married a William Charles Barratt 20 occ Farrier 10th June 1878 St Dunstan in the East her father was Godfrey occ Harness Maker, one of the witnesses looks to be a Rosamond Challis West?
Maria Mary Barratt in 1939 was born 8th January 1859 and died in Southwark 1942 aged 83
So if Thomas Matthew West was born 4th July 1857 ( Sept qtr registration) and Maria Mary West b 8th January 1859 ( March qtr registration) how can Rosamond be born either 14th June 1857 or 1858?
Keyboard86
EDIT Also noted when Thomas Matthew West married Jane Taylor in 1877, the witnesses were Fredk Booth and Rose West
Hi again, I am getting rather weary of proving to you that the baptism/birth registration of a Rosamond Challis West to parents Godfrey & Mary and birth registration of a FEMALE WEST mmn Challis in 1856 is yours, answer the above rather than offering an alternative of any kind, compare these people to the 1871 West family shown above also.
The marriage of Godfrey West to Mary Challis was Sept qt 1855 Sevenoaks 2a 53 not c 1858?
Keyboard86
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Sorry, perhaps I have missed or misunderstood something. I will check everything from the beginning. Thanks for the trouble :(
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Hi again Peter, I do not want any response to this list until you have looked back and commented on the 9 pages of assistance that has been offered/given to you, this is for my own personal use at present as sick and tired of writing these names down, finding marriages/deaths/1939 without posting?!
I have been attempting to locate the supposed "Betty Booth who travelled a long way to the funeral"
The male children of Frederick and Rosamond were:-
Frederick Godfrey Booth March qtr 1884 Lambeth mmn West
Charles Matthew Booth Dec qtr 1885 Lambeth mmn West
Ernest Booth Sept qtr 1890 Lambeth mmn West
Frederick Godfrey disappears off the planet from 1891 census?!
As known Charles Matthew Booth married Louisa Mason, they only had one child a Stanley Charles in 1923, when Louisa died 1964 she left her money to Stanley C occ Travel Agent, he visited the USA and possibly married 1955 in the UK, and still alive.
Ernest Booth joined the Royal Navy and was a Signaller, by 1939 was a Yeamon Signaller in Kingsbridge, Devon and married, to who, died Stepney?
Keyboard86
PS where were all the boys in 1901?
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I am completely swamped with names at the moment. I am struggling with the census 1871 I cannot work out who is who. Censuses 61, 52,72 are OK but the family Rosamond C West is baffling me at the moment.
Betty Booth was a civil servant and was responsible for the historical Plaques that are put up on walls saying "The virgin queen Elizabeth 1 slept here with here lover on the 29 Sept 1587" ;D
She was still working in the late 70s. She could be related to Rosamond Mary Winn nee Whitten. Born Bethnal Green 1908 Granddaughter of Mrs Challis Booth.
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>:( See what I mean about " Information you had already that could have assisted us earler" why was this little bombshell posted after 9 pages?
Keyboard86
PS that Rosamond Mary Whitten had mmn Booth, and she married Harold R Winn West Ashford Sept qtr 1940 .
Which Booth female married a Whitten by 1908 and was possibly a child of Challis West?0
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My sister had just told me this. A few minutes age I checked back and got the corrected info. Betty Booth never married and lived with her mother. She could have been a cousin or second cousin of
Rosamond Mary Winn nee Whitten. My sister thinks she had the cousins Len Wood, Wilf King and Ken King. These three boys are Grandsons from Mrs Challis Booth. I got the bit about still working wrong. Se must be older. My sister has just told me, she can remember there are pictures of her from before the war perhaps 8 to 10 years old. standing beside Rosamond Mary Winn nee Whitten.
Sorry I cannot get my sister to tell me everything. Only when I jog her memory with something, then it all comes out.
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Peter, you are leading me away from the main line of help re Rosamond Challis West b 1856, Orsett seems to be a concern so look up that Female West birth 1856 Orsett, click on Orsett and see which towns/villages the Orsett Registration district covers, and then find me a death for a Rosamond Challis West who was baptised 1856 and reborn 1857/8, will you please please answer re Thomas Matthew and Maria Mary shown above and reply requested
Frederick Charles Whitten married a Rose Mary Booth Dec qtr 1898 St Saviour?
A Rosamond M Whiiten married a Harold R Winn Sept qtr 1940 West Ashford ?
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Thomas and Maria seem to fit into the scheme of things as per 1871 census. Ages all a bit suspect but within the tolerance.
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Thomas and Maria seem to fit into the scheme of things as per 1871 census. Ages all a bit suspect but within the tolerance.
Peter, sorry but I have now given up all hope of assisting you on this thread, I have shown Thomas M and Maria M in 1871 they are also on 1861 with in further records, EXACT dates of birth, no more help given, sorry.
Keyboard86
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I don't understand I have just said that these two seem to fit into the tree. I already said the three censuses were OK. I have not yet worked through all the other info. Sorry, I cannot move as quick as you. I have a language problem and do not always understand and I have to look up in the internet to ind out hwta you mean. Once agan sorry.
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I don't understand I have just said that these two seem to fit into the tree. I already said the three censuses were OK. I have not yet worked through all the other info. Sorry, I cannot move as quick as you. I have a language problem and do not always understand and I have to look up in the internet to ind out hwta you mean. Once agan sorry.
Apologies, ok please believe me that Female West birth on FreeBMD 1856 Orsett is your Rosamond Challis West, the Betty Booth conundrum will try to sort out ok
Keyboard86
PS at least you know now in 1891 who were the brothers of HETTIE and NELLIE :)
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Thanks a lot.
you work too quickly for me. Give me three or four days and then I hope I will have some positive news. Till then have a nice weekend.
TTFN
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OK located I believe Rosamond Mary Whitten who married a Harold Winn 1940, think she took his name in 1939 and "Remarried" at present unable to locate a "Hamilton" and her death was as Rosamond Mary Hamilton born 6th April 1908 died June qtr 1977 Chatham, Kent aged 69
Peter, your understanding of the English language is spot on, your ability to answer a simple question is open to debate?!
Keyboard86
EDIT OK she remarried as ROSAMUND M WIN to George T Hamilton 1963 Chatham, how this helps in locating the Betty Booth the Civil Servant responsible for Elizabeth the 1st laid here with someone for a night of fun plaques is still a conumdrum, who was her mother?
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This is exactly my problem I do not know if it is a question or a statement. I also have problems when a christian name is given and no surname. There are hundreds of Godfreys, Mary etc and I don't always know who you are talking about, I have to check it up with a translater. As I said previously my sister only reacts when I give her information. It is an age problem. So in the future please tell me clearly to do something or just to note something. Thank you for all your trouble. I learnt my English in England over 70 years ago.
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I met Betty Booth only once that was in the in the seventies. If I have remembered correctly (grey cell problem), at that time she had not married and lived with her mum in or near London. This statement has no guarantee.
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Hi again, Betty Booth I now believe was born 8th June 1922 in Plymouth as Betty G Booth mmn Pearce, she was the daughter of Ernest Booth & Elizabeth G Pearce married June qtr 1921 Plymouth, this I believe to be the Ernest b 1890 who joined the Royal Navy and was a Yeoman Signaller in Kingsbridge Devon in 1939, Betty Booth died 1990 Waltham Forest, Essex ?
Elizabeth Gladys Booth born 21/11/1893 died Dec qtr 1979 Barking, Essex
Marriage was Ernest Booth to Elizabeth Gladys Pearce 23td April 1921 Plymouth, St Simon
Keyboard86
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Hi you are brilliant. I referred to photos from before the war and there were photos from Plymouth Hoe memorial. No persons just the stone bit. So I assume Ernest was the connection. :-)
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;) Do not assume, he was the connection, now other than Charles Matthew Booth who we know married Louisa Mason, and had one child a Stanley Charles in 1923 occ Travel Agent who was left money by Louisa and travelled as a Travel Agent to the USA, and possibly married 1955 and possibly still alive, the other brother Frederick Godfrey Booth b March qtr 1884 Lambeth and the whereabouts of all the boys in 1901 and in the case of Frederick G onwards is my next task?!
Keyboard86
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Hi again, must find the boys in 1901, but:-
Probate
Betty Gladys Booth of 12, Buxton Road, Newbury Park, Ilford died 23rd January 1990 Probate, Ipswich £101436
Keyboard86
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I have checked every answer and made a little tree. 95% matches up. Fantastic. Below are a few comments.
Reply 66 Cannot do anything with this, How come admitted to school 2 years old?
School Admission Esther Booth born 18th January 1887 admitted to Heathfield School, Lambeth 19th August 1889
Reply 74 I don’t know what to make out of this statement
The death you have found is for a Godfrey West late of 33 Parrock Street, Gravesend who died at Marden near Staplehurst according to the probate index
Reply 75 William C must be 10 at the 1871 census
Suspect date Matthew J 76 Father b Vange
Cannot work out who are the baileys
Maria Bailey 25 Married/Sister b Crayford
Maria M Bailey 2 Niece b Knockholt
Annie J Bailey 2 months Niece b Middlesex
Reply 83 Which Booth female married a Whitten by 1908 and was possibly a child of Challis West?
As far as I know nobody. I do know Mr Frederick Charles Whitten b. 1875 had a brother. Whether he married a Booth no idea. Because we have no ladies free in our list. The only child from Challis West with a Whitten was Rose Mary Booth born 1879
Do you think there is any info on her husband. He seems to be a dark horse. My sister wondered if he came from Yorkshire as Booth is a Yorkshire name.
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Reply 74 I am quoting the probate index for the death you found, is it your Godfrey :-\
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Reply 74 I am quoting the probate index for the death you found, is it your Godfrey :-\
This was the Grandfather of Rosamond C West her father died 1901?
Keyboard86
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Why Esther in school aged 2 don't know but back again aged 4 same school?
Maria Challis married an Edward Bailey Bromley March qtr 1868
Maria Mary BAILY Dec qtr 1868 Bromley mmn Challis
"William C must be 10 in 1871" correct typo William Challis West aged 9 in 1871 Father Godfrey Mother Mary?
Rose Mary Booth married a Whitten, remember I was still searching for answers back then so did not have full info!
;) If only Frederick(Charles) Booth had married Rosamond Challis West all the pages after pages would have been resolved a lot earlier!
Keyboard86
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Thanks all info entered.
Quote "If only Frederick(Charles) Booth had married Rosamond Challis West all the pages after pages would have been resolved a lot earlier!"
Are you saying they never married?
I have a Place of marriage Lambeth but no other details.
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Hi again, "When Thomas Matthew West married Jane Taylor in 1877 the witnesses were Fredk Booth & Rose West"
So any marriage was between 1877 and 1881?
Keyboard86
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I wonder if they got married before the birth of the first child, Rose Mary Booth 1879.
Or I wonder if for some reason they never got married. Such as he was not divorced.
It is strange there are no docs anywhere about him.
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I wonder if they got married before the birth of the first child, Rose Mary Booth 1879.
Or I wonder if for some reason they never got married. Such as he was not divorced.
It is strange there are no docs anywhere about him.
Hi again, one to bear in mind considering he gives Marylebone on one census is:-
Birth registration Frederick Booth Sept qtr 1851 Marylebone v1 page 182 mmn Lewis
Baptism 30th May 1852 Brynaston Square, St Mary
Frederick Booth born 4th August 1851 Father Charles occ Painter Mother Ann
Residing at 78, Seymour Place
Marriage 9th September 1849 St Marylebone
Charles Harwood Booth Full age occ Painter Father John Booth occ Painter
Ann Lewis Minor Father John Lewis occ Plasterer
Another possible brother Charles Henry Booth b 1st March 1850 baptism 9th August 1850 Brynaston Square same parentage.
Another birth mother maiden name Lewis, John Powell Booth June qtr 1855 Marylebone
Keyboard86
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Thank you that is very interesting. Did he marry if yes to whom and when?
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Thank you that is very interesting. Did he marry if yes to whom and when?
Possibly lived with a Rosamond Challis West but other than that will see if he married prior to at least 1881?
Charles Henry could be another to follow?
Keyboard86
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Quote "Charles Harwood Booth Full age occ Painter Father John Booth occ Painter
Ann Lewis Minor Father John Lewis occ Plasterer"
What year would that be?
Is it odd that Ann Lewis as a minor lives in a house with Booth then Marries him. Or was that normal in those days to move in with the family until they got married.
I believe that with parents consent, in those days, the minimum age was 13 or 14. Later it was raised.
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I have just had some very new information. I had no idea, till a few miinutes ago.
Mr Frederick Charles Whitten b. 1899 d 1990 was a twin the other one died at a very early age.
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I have just had some very new information. I had no idea, till a few miinutes ago.
Mr Frederick Charles Whitten b. 1899 d 1990 was a twin the other one died at a very early age.
Hi again, do not know where you obtained this information, but Frederick Charles Whitten birth registered Dec qtr 1899 Whitechapel v1c page 294 no other Whitten births under that Registration District and volume & page number?
1901 census:-
Frederick Chas Whitten 26 occ Sadler & Harness Maker b Blackfriars
Rose M 21 b Bermondsey
Frederick C 1 b Whitechapel
Residing at 8, Mountford Street, Whitechapel
Census Ref RG13/305/131/1
4th September 1849 St Marylebone
Charles Harwood Booth Full Age occ Painter Father John Booth occ Painter
Ann Lewis Minor Father John Lewis occ Plasterer
Keyboard86
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Does a death at birth have to be registered? I have no idea:
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Please ignore my comments about Ann Lewis. Once again I have not understood because I thought it was census details, not a marriage You gave me no hint which way to go :-\
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I have queried the twin thing. The answer came back somebody was a twin, because my late husband took out an insurance policy out against having twins.
I personally have never heard anything about a Whitten twin but I do believe Harald Robert Winn could have been a twin. I have no conformation about that.
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Have just have an email, Oh I'm not sure anymore who was a twin >:(. The reply will be if you are not 110% sure don't tell me. It will waste other peoples time and effort.
I am very thankful for the time and effort you have put in. Sorry about the twin.
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Hi again, the banner heading of your thread is "Challis" I and others have been attempting to follow this family backwards and forwards, specifically trying to locate initially the correct year of birth for a Rosamond Challis West who "married" a Frederick Booth.
Their are still unanswered questions by yourself and in the case of the Booth boys in 1901 still to be resolved.
Found these which in the case of Frederick Godfrey Booth gives an exact date of birth:-
School Admission 22nd October 1888 Heathfield School
Fred Godfrey Booth b 29th December 1883
Chas M Booth b 15th October 1885
School Admission 1st July 1889 Springfield School
Rose Booth b 24th May 1879
School Admission 19th August 1889 Heathfield School
Esther Booth b 18th January 1887
All shown as Father Frederick and living at 31, Dawlish Street
Esther/Ellen in 1901:-
Ray C West 30 occ Saddler & Harness Maker b Bermondsey
Bessie M 23 b Yeovil
A Child unamed ( Female) 4 days b Whitechapel
Godfrey W Lea 25 Cousin b b Hounslow
Hettie Booth 14 Niece b Vauxhall
Residing at 28, Church Lane, Whitechapel
Census Ref RG13/305/137/13
1901 census:-
Daniel West 35 occ Harness Maker b Bermondsey
Catherine 37 b Spitalfields
Ellen Booth 12 Niece b Clapham
Residing at 4, Brook Green Road, Hammersmith
Census Ref RG13/46/13/18
So where did the boys go in 1901?
Keyboard86
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I think it is about time for you to stop. You are correct the title is Challis. The only important thing missing is was she married and when? You have spent so much time it is fantastic to see what has come out.
Now to explain why the query. Mrs Booth lived in Bethnal Green with her daughter and son-in-law. She used to go down to the Mile End road mission with a handbag full of money. She would distribute this money to the down and outs. Also she worked together with the Salvation Army. She is no relation of Captian Booth. Everybody knew she had this money in her bag and over the years nobody touched her. She was respected by everybody.
She received the money from a Mr Charrington from the brewery family. We have always asked how did she meet Mr Charrington? There is no reference in his biography. How comes that an absolute lady very, well educated, live in Cyprus Street, Bethnal Green.
What went wrong in her early life. If she did not get married and lived with someone beneath her status, that could be the answer to the questions.
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Once again thanks for all the help. I have maid a family tree and mosts of it fits Only one that does not fit is "Godfrey W Lea 25 Cousin b b Hounslow"
I have a photo from a big wedding I can identify three persons (one being Mrs Challis Booth another is Rose Mary Whitten) is there a system where one can send a scanned photo and ask if anybody knows any person in the photo?
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Hi again, as Godfrey W Lea was b c 1876, my first port of call would have been the 1881 census, did you try that?
If not, his birth registration is Godfrey West Lea March qtr 1876 Brentford 3a 49 mmn West
1881 census:-
William J Lea 68 Widower occ Engineer b Pimlico
Mary Ann 35 Daughter b Sidbury, Worcestershire
Agnes 23 Daughter b Howland Street, London ( Newland Street in 1851 census)
Godfrey W 5 b Hounslow
Residing at Gloster Villa, Ealing & Old Brentford
Census Ref RG11/1347/76/18
Marriage Dec qtr 1874 Maidstone 2a 2019, William John Lea to Elizabeth West
Possible death for Elizabeth Lea, March qtr 1876 Brentford 3a 36 aged 41 ( Possibly in childbirth)?
Any more queries/questions please come back.
Keyboard86
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re reply 109 I have a copy of a census from 1911 and it say family Whitten Children 3 born 2 Alive. So perhaps Frederick Charles did have a twin. Interesting Mrs Booth did not live with them at that time.
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re reply 109 I have a copy of a census from 1911 and it say family Whitten Children 3 born 2 Alive. So perhaps Frederick Charles did have a twin. Interesting Mrs Booth did not live with them at that time.
Really, was that 11, Cyprus Street, Rosamond Challis Booth is at that address with son Charles Matthew and Esther?
So you are happy you know who the parents were of Elizabeth West who married William John Lea?
Keyboard86
PS as shown earlier Frederick Charles did not have a twin, check Whitten births/deaths from marriage date until 1911?
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You have got me going again. 11 Cyprus street is correct Which year was she living with 2 childen there? I cannot find any reference to the dead third child mentioned in the 1911 Census.
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You have got me going again. 11 Cyprus street is correct Which year was she living with 2 childen there? I cannot find any reference to the dead third child mentioned in the 1911 Census.
1911? Just put in Rosamond Challis Booth
Wish you would answer a straight question, are you now happy with who the parentage was of Elizabeth West who married a William John Lea?
Note the Godfrey W ( West ) Lea in 1901 with Ray C West is shown as cousin not nephew.
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Hi again, to help out an Elizabeth West b c 1835 Horndon on the Hill Single is with a Herbert Carless & Miriam J b l844 Horndon on the Hill in Leamington Priors, Warwickshire
Census ref RG10/3194/114/7
Herbert Carless married Miriam Jane West June qtr 1869 Gravesend 2a 577
In 1851 a Miriam J West aged 7 b Horndon is with a Godfrey West 51 b Lynsted and family
Census ref HO107/1773/315/27
Keyboard86
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I have just lost my family tree :-[ So it will take a few days to digest everything.
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Re: Question 115
I cannot find any census details for the boys I have tried across England.
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I have cross checked the 1881 Census it looks OK.
Have managed to fit the Leas into the chart. You said nephew or cousin. From the age structure I would have thought cousin. "Ray C West 30, Godfrey W Lea 25 Cousin"
I still have not found a marriage for West and R M Challis Booth.
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I have been checking back on everything and I have found the following.
Reply # 115
1901 Census
Ester Booth
Went to Heathfield School Lambeth 19th Aug 1889 (Which I cannot find anywhere in the London area.)
1901 Residing at 28, Church Lane, Whitechapel
Also at 31, Dawlish Street
I cannot find a Dawlish Street in London past or present.
So what is correct. I have not manage to see an image of the census extract.
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Hi again, against the record for Esther, notes state:-
"Heathfield School opened in or around 1888, closed or reorganised before 1906, there is no history of this school, or it's exact location"
The whole Booth family were living in 1891 at Alfred Place, Lambeth
Census Ref RG12/400/103/13
Dawlish Street is on RG12/401/57/42, look for a Jane Adams b 1869 living in Lambeth.
When Frederick Godfrey and Charles Matthew Booth went to Heathfield School 1888, they were living at 31, Dawlish Street.
Keyboard86
Google Dawlish Street, Lambeth loads on it?
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Quote "Google Dawlish Street, Lambeth loads on it?"
I did and got absolutely nothing only Dawlish Road.
OK, I will use another Internet connection.
Thanks
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Quote "Google Dawlish Street, Lambeth loads on it?"
I did and got absolutely nothing only Dawlish Road.
OK, I will use another Internet connection.
Thanks
Please note, all comments I have made have referred to Dawlish STREET, not Road, must be near Luscombe Street as referring to Church of England, St Silas Mission.
Keyboard86
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That's better.