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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: fedupp on Thursday 07 September 17 19:45 BST (UK)
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Looking for any information on private walter sidney freeman 59757, ist batt. Northamptonshire regiment ,who died of his wounds age 21 On 19th december 1918 . Buried at st. Sever cemetry ext. Rouen cwgc .
Does anyone know anything about 1st batt . Thanks .
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You can download the war diary of the battalion for the time of his death for £3.50 here http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14052712, there are others covering other periods.
However, at the time of his death, the regiment were already in Germany. He is buried near Rouen in France where there were a considerable number of hospitals. The Register of Soldiers Effects records his death as being from sickness rather than wounds so he must have been evacuated back down the medical chain to a hospital in the Rouen area. There is only a very slight chance that the diary may record his evacuation.
A local paper may have reported his death?
MaxD
PS His service record has not survived so no medical history.
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MaxD thanks for info .so probably no way to find when he was moved to rouen?? Any hospital records ? MaxD can you tell me why you think his. Service record has not survived ?? Anyway to find out any more info.??? Thanks.
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Some 2/3 of all the WW1 Service Records were destroyed in a WW2 bombing raid.
Many lost to fire; others lost to water damage.
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KG has covered the record survival question, only his medal card and the Effects Register, which were separately stored, are to hand.
The vast majority of medical records were destroyed after the war. A "representative" selection was retained by the National Archives in their reference MH 106, description here http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10949
The collection is being digitised by a subscription site called Forces War Records (this is not an endorsement). His name does not produce a hit on that site.
The Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918/20 hit the weakened German population hard in 1918. A likely scenario is that he contracted flu.
I'll take a closer look at the war diary although first look comes up without clues.
MaxD
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Further - the diary of the Assistant Director of Medical Services for the 1st Division (of which 1st Northants was a part) records for Dec 1918 - 686 men in the medical system for sickness of whom 154 were suffering from flu and remarks that it is "the prevailing disease". Proves nothing but is perhaps indicative.
MaxD
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Thanks to KGarrad and MaxD.
What about the' burnt' records I hear so much about ? Would anyone know if any records exist with the regiment ,not sure who it amalgamated with ? Would any one know. Also what would 1st batt strengh have been at that time. ? 5 or 6 co. ? Thanks.
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The "burnt records" are the one third (see KGs post) that did survive and in this case they didn't.
The 1st Battalion had four companies, total strength about 1000 men.
After a short lived amalgamation with the Lincolnshire Regiment in 1948, the regiment ended up as part of the Royal Anglian Regiment in 1964. Its museum will not, like almost all regimental museums, have personal records. Those records that do exist are here
http://www.armymuseums.org.uk/museum/abington-park-museum/
MaxD
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MaxD ,thanks ! I did contact abington park a few years ago,think they were undergoing some sort of re-organisation at the time and weren't able to help, I shall try again.
What about conscription records for parts of northamptonshire wonder if they still exist ?
Would the archives at wooton hall hold anything on the regiment ? Thanks.
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Personal service records were not held by any other organisation other than the War Office and, as we've seen, they do not exist. Wootton Hall and the museum will no doubt be very polite but their reply is highly likely to be along the lines of my previous sentence.
I do understand your frustration at not being able to find anything more than his medal record but experience says that is all that will be found.
MaxD
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MaxD,thanks for your help, much appreciated !
IF ....there is anyone out there ,who has a specai interest in OR is researching The 1st batt. Nothamtonshire regiment 1914-1918 ,I would be pleased to receive any info ,help or pointers towards any other sources of information on this subject .
If anyone knows of any photos of 1st batt in 1918 ,....or ...ANY mention of Walter sidney freeman in ANYTHING I would love to hear of it . Thank you .
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As far as the regiment is concerned then Googling Northamptonshire regiment WW1 will bring up a multitude of things to look at. Make sure you are looking at 1st Battalion and from after 1915 (his medal record shows he didn't serve until after 1915 so probably a 1916 conscription). Here's just one (scroll down a bit on it) http://www.northantstelegraph.co.uk/news/the-story-of-the-northamptonshire-regiment-in-the-great-war-1-6227176
You should also download the war diaries of the battalion. There are four here
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_aq=1%20northamptonshire%202%20infantry&_ep=diaries&_nq1=Yeomanry&_nq2=24&_nq3=lines&_cr=WO&_dss=range&_ro=any&_p=1900&_st=adv
but you may wish to ignore the 1914-1915 one as he wasn't serving then.
MaxD
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MaxD thanks for that ,should keep me busy for sometime !!!.
Just wondering ....slightly off this thread.... If someone joined 2nd batt in 1899 ,served in s.africa and india then moved to 1st batt circa 1906-7 then to reserve ....what would that mean ? Would batt have been in reserve or would it have been a territorial batt. At the time ?? Also if it Was a teritorial batt , would it count for years of service. Before disharged ?? Thanks
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This sounds like a classic description of a twelve year engagement comprising 7 years with the colours (ie in uniform, full time) followed by 5 on the reserve. The engagement had a caveat that if the man was overseas at the seven year point, he could serve eight with the colours and 4 on reserve.
While on the reserve, he was back in civilian life but with a liability to be called back to service in a national emergency. On the most common form of reserve service the man received pay of 3/6 a week. His discharge from that obligation and hence from the army would take effect at the 12 year point.
The dates you give could be either 7 and 5 or 8 and 4, the actual dates should clarify which.
MaxD
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MaxD thanks . I thought it may be ! Thank you for confirming and giving a clear and concise Expanation .
Whilst on reserve would he. Have to turn up at somewhere like a local co./ batt. Drill hall every so often or not ? Could he have left the uk whilst on reserve ?
Also at the end , when he was discharged would he have had to report In person to fill in documents or would / could it have been done by post ? For 12 years service 7/8 at the colours ..would a small pension be payable or not ?
Thanks
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I'll have to do a little research on those question in order to be sure about the answers, I think I know but hate to guess! Do you know what reserve he was on (look for Sections A B C or D although not all were in effect at all times) - the rules may have been different.
Someone else may happen along with the definitive answer!
MaxD
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... For 12 years service 7/8 at the colours ..would a small pension be payable or not ?
Thanks
No - he would have had to stay with the colours for 21 years to qualify for a pension.
If he was married, especially with children, his widow would qualify for a pension. So there may be trace of him in the pension records held by the WFA.
https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/all-about-the-wfa/wfa-news-events/pension-records/the-wfa-preserves-a-major-great-war-archive-of-6-5-million-records.html
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MaxD thanks again .ref. What type of reserve He was on.? Can't remember, I'll have to check my files and get back to you on that .
If though he rec a sentence. From a field GCM court, even though later he received good conduct awards would any sentence have reduced his time served before discharge and
So the amount of pension he received ?
Also would at this time a medal clasp been awarded for a battle or campaign. ?
Thanks
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Newburychap ,thanks for that.
So full 21 years ......with colours ....required before a pension! Don't think he was married then and lived to the age of 91 .....so probably no pension !!! Thanks. Also for link.
P.S. Is western front assoc free or subscription ?
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Must just pick up a couple of points. A pension was payable IF he was discharged with a service related disability otherwise, as Newburychap says, 21 years.
Second, the WFA isn't a sub site but there is a charge for the records. However, from the dates you have given, your man was discharged 1911/12 ish so it is not relevant, the pension records held by the WFA are for the Great War.
As he served only 12 years, the question about a court martial sentence is not relevant to him.
All that said, I have the impression that you have the man's records. It would make life easier if you give his name and details as I suspect I shall then be able to look at them and perhaps see clues therein.
MaxD
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MaxD thanks again.
Think I should apologise for mixing things up . Most of this thread/ topic is in regard to walter sidney freeman born 1897 died 1918, just after his 21st birthday .
Because you have been very helpfull , in last few p0sts.I asked questions, Which refered to a walter charles freeman born 1882. Enlisted 1899 . A post on canadian page will explain more and yes his record is pre ww1 whist walter sidney is ww1 and the wstern front assoc. May be of help and is relevant.
I also have a new topic on another WW1 person.
To my shame my knowledge of ww1 is limited ,and as YOU and a few others do seem to have the knowledge AND are willing to help ,I. Just thought I'd keep going while I was on a roll.
I shouldn't have confused things .
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MaxD walter charles freeman also on ..England , Northamptonshire. Page.
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OK, I was clear we were talking about two different men, hence my request for the second one's name. I've looked at the two other threads on Walter Charles and, if I may, would like to make a suggestion. At the very least, each of the three threads would benefit from showing a link to the others. The Northants board http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=778465.0 already has some service information which I would have spent time duplicating on this board as I was not aware of the other threads.
Best approach may be to invite folk to post any further info on Walter Charles on the Northants board leaving this one for Walter Sidney, certainly don't want another Walter Charles!!
That said, and back to Walter Sidney, others may say differently but my one experience of the Great War pension records held by WFA was very disappointing. The card says almost nothing except prove the man was in receipt of a pension, there is no sentence that says he has a pension because...he was taken to... and he was suffering from.. I'll dig it out and show you the copy.
Busy today but more on the Walter Charles questions over on the Northants board in due course.
Sorry if this sounds a bit like a lecture - all in a spirit of helpfulness!
MaxD
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MaxD thanks for your help and advice .
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Attached is the pension record card I spoke about. Requested in October, received in July. The hieroglyphics are file references, the significance of which is long since lost in the mists of time! Was it worth £25 - not in this case.
MaxD
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MaxD. Ref. pension card. OOPPS !.... See what you mean now ! Think I'd be a little " miffed " having to wait 8 months for that, plus the cost !!!! You would probably need a degree in 19/20th century military pensions administration interpretation, to understand that ?!!!!
Thanks for sharing and taking time to explain .