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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: pepewinsome on Friday 08 September 17 03:40 BST (UK)
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Hi if anyone has any info on Alexander Purcell he was born Kingston Jamaica 1824, even tho on alot of documents he states his age as being born 1830, his parents where Jane Williams Gregory and father Frederick Purcell. Once he got to Australia he was a marina that worked up and down the Nsw coast and married Sarah Spring 1861, had my great grand father,(Alexander) then according to others married her sister Elizabeth and had 4 more children, how ever I think sarah and Elizabeth are the same person, still working on that theory. Ide ideally love a picture of him, or even any info at all. much appreciated.
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Hi Pepewinsome and welcome to rootsChat
Do you know where in NSW your Purcell family lived?
Back in the 1940s/50s there were Purcells at Lake Cargelligo, that I know of.
Plus there may have been some of that name at Hill End, though if he was a mariner then I guess that cuts them out?
Dawn M
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Welcome to RootsChat
Alexander John, born 30 March 1862, baptised 29 Oct 1862, All Saints, St Kilda VICTORIA with parents as Alexander and Sarah Ada PURCELL.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTZ2-QMQ
Vic BDM online index has the following:
1861 Marriage Sarah Ada SPRING and Alexander PURCELL reference #1974
1862 Birth Alexander John PURCELL, parents as Alexander and Sarah Ada (Spring) #8054.
https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/
Here is a crew and passenger list where he is recorded as aged 54, a Steward, of Jamaica. The voyage is August, 1882 inter-colonial from Melbourne Victoria to Sydney New South Wales.
http://marinersandships.com.au/1882/08/media/090leu.gif
JM
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Hi there,
Did Alexander, born Jamaica, happen to die in Victoria? If so, could this be his death registration? If so, what information is provided on that document re his possible marriages to Sarah Ada and to Elizabeth? Would you consider the informant would have been able to provide reliable information?
1885 PURCELL Alexander Reg. no 9886
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/191200961 The Age 9 July 1885
PURCELL.—On the 8th July, at 54 Heath-street, Port Melbourne, after a long and painful illness, Alexander Purcell, the dearly beloved husband of Elizabeth Purcell, ship steward, aged 54 years
Is this Elizabeth's death? What information is given on that document about her marriage and her children?
1888 PURCELL Elizabeth Spouse's family name Spring Reg. no 7250
JM
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BDM VIC deaths
1917 / 13249 NOLAN Adeline parents PURCELL Alexander / Elizth (Spring)
died Melb E 52yr
1932 / 6721 BLACK Alice Emma parents PURCELL Alexander / Elizth (Spring)
died Melb South 65yr
1938 / 11212 DOUGLAS Elizabeth parents PURCELL Alexander / Elizabeth (Spring)
born Melbourne Sth died Melbourne 70yr
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It appears Alexander was also a publican in St Kilda for a time. Insolvency details (1863) here:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154966543
And a witness to a robbery on the ship You Yangs (he was chief steward) in 1872
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article5839324
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Hello everyone, and thankyou for all your information, I have all this info already, the thing is, I cant find a birth cert for Sarah Spring, Have their marriage cert saying married 1861 and she was 20yrs at the time. Then elizabeth came along and no death cert for sarah either. I have how ever found a Elizabeth Spring born NSW 1849, but if she passed in 1888 she would have been like 12 when married. Also Alexander I think has lied about his age, 1824 it states in the Jamaican records, how reliable are they? he says he was 29 when he married Sarah but infact would have been 35/36. Im not sure if sarah was Elizabeth, both had middle name Ada aswell, I have their signatures. Posted on the can you read this writing forum. He seem to have ALOT of children yet im still trying to find a picture of any of them or him, apart from one i have of his son Alexander John born 1862 which is my great grandfather.
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It appears Alexander was also a publican in St Kilda for a time. Insolvency details (1863) here:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154966543
This is very interesting, thankyou..this is him..he had lost a baby that year and this is when I heard his wife sarah had also may have passed, yet no record of that as yet. Funny to find out he was a publican as his oldest son Alexander my great grandfather was also a publican in Perth western Australia, at The Odd Fellows hotel, now know as the Norfolk Hotel in Fremantle, perhaps he new the business from a child.
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Hi there,
Did Alexander, born Jamaica, happen to die in Victoria? If so, could this be his death registration? If so, what information is provided on that document re his possible marriages to Sarah Ada and to Elizabeth? Would you consider the informant would have been able to provide reliable information?
1885 PURCELL Alexander Reg. no 9886
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/191200961 The Age 9 July 1885
PURCELL.—On the 8th July, at 54 Heath-street, Port Melbourne, after a long and painful illness, Alexander Purcell, the dearly beloved husband of Elizabeth Purcell, ship steward, aged 54 years
Is this Elizabeth's death? What information is given on that document about her marriage and her children?
1888 PURCELL Elizabeth Spouse's family name Spring Reg. no 7250
JM
Yes all the above is true and facts, I have no marriage cert only her sisters Sarah and his...Im still thinking Sarah is actually Elizabeth, but they where supposed to been born NSW and only birth cert i can find for either name is Elizabeths born 1849 which would make her 12yrs old when she married. I have Elizabeths childrens marriages Certs, in whcih Elizabeth has signed, and put Alexander as husband etc
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Hi Pepewinsome and welcome to rootsChat
Do you know where in NSW your Purcell family lived?
Back in the 1940s/50s there were Purcells at Lake Cargelligo, that I know of.
Plus there may have been some of that name at Hill End, though if he was a mariner then I guess that cuts them out?
Dawn M
Hi Dawn, no Im pretty sure thats not them, how ever they maybe distant rellies...
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You need to see this death certificate. It will ask for years in the colony. This will increase your chances of locating the family in NSW. Your Elizabeth / Sarah might not have been born to a SPRING father.
BDM VIC death
1888 / 7250 PURCELL Elizabeth parents SPRING / Catherine (Hayes)
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Have you considered that either wives may have been a SPRING by previous marriage?
Jamjar
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Just giving a link to the other thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=778538.msg6324964
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Could you list all of Alexander's children and years of birth, please?
Jamjar
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Also Alexander I think has lied about his age, 1824 it states in the Jamaican records, how reliable are they?
The baptism register clearly says Alexander was born 30 Dec 1824 and baptised 21 August 1825 at Kingston.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939F-8FVL-D?i=223&cc=1827268
(That is of course assuming this is the correct Alexander ;))
Also a brother Frederick Murray PURCELL b 4 August 1830.
There are also merchant navy records for Alexander (which I don't have access to) which also have his year of birth as 1824/25. I wonder why he made himself younger in Australia?
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Births:
1862 8054 Alexander John mother Sarah Ada (Spring) (as per JM)
1863 7762 John mother Sarah Ada (Spring) death 1863 4117
1865 2249 Adeline Lavinia mother Elizabeth (Spring)
1869 22263 Amanda mother Elizabeth (Spring) death 1871 3784
1869 2247 Elizabeth Mary mother Elizabeth (Spring)
Who is Elizabeth's fourth child? Alice Emma? I can't find her birth?
Jamjar
Added: Are these NSW births theirs?
2537/1876 PURCELL Eva Alexandra ALEXANDER and ELIZABETH SYDNEY
1567/1879 PURCELL Ada May ALEXANDER and ELIZABETH SYDNEY
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It appears Alexander was also a publican in St Kilda for a time. Insolvency details (1863) here:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154966543
This is very interesting, thankyou..this is him..he had lost a baby that year and this is when I heard his wife sarah had also may have passed, yet no record of that as yet. Funny to find out he was a publican as his oldest son Alexander my great grandfather was also a publican in Perth western Australia, at The Odd Fellows hotel, now know as the Norfolk Hotel in Fremantle, perhaps he new the business from a child.
Some more information: it was the Inkermann Hotel. Alexander's licence was cancelled in Feb 1863 for "abandoning his licensed house".
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article6483197
(on the 2nd page, 2nd column near the middle)
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Was Alexander Jnr still alive in 1917?
In Adeline's death notice it mentions her two sisters, no brother:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article155180481
Alice Emma death notice: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article203748351
Jamjar
I see Alex junior died 1911: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article26299862
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Who are the Mr and Mrs F SPRING cousins of Alexander Jnr?
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article26300241
Jamjar
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Who are the Mr and Mrs F SPRING cousins of Alexander Jnr?
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article26300241
Jamjar
Ok, this looks like the cousin mentioned. He was born in Sydney:
9741/1874 SPRING Francis John parents GEORGE WILLIAM and MARY JANE COOMA
Death WA: 783 1957 Spring Francis John Carruthers age 82 parents George W and Mary J PERTH
Marriage NSW: 836/1863 SPRING George to CARRUTHERS Mary Jane SYDNEY
So, we are possibly looking for Sarah and Elizabeth with a brother George, yes?
Yes, it seems that, as you suggest, this is the birth of Elizabeth:
135/1849 SPRING Elizabeth S V1849135 34A parents JOHN and MARY
710/1839 SPRING George W V1839710 133 parents JOHN and MARY
Doesn't prove Sarah and Elizabeth are the same person though. :-\
Added - Death of George W, sailing from Melbourne: 16316/1891 SPRING George W JOHN MARY MARINE
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article228166077
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article98542285
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Did Alexander, born Jamaica, happen to die in Victoria? If so, could this be his death registration? If so, what information is provided on that document re his possible marriages to Sarah Ada and to Elizabeth? Would you consider the informant would have been able to provide reliable information?
1885 PURCELL Alexander Reg. no 9886
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/191200961 The Age 9 July 1885
PURCELL.—On the 8th July, at 54 Heath-street, Port Melbourne, after a long and painful illness, Alexander Purcell, the dearly beloved husband of Elizabeth Purcell, ship steward, aged 54 years.....
and your reply :)
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Yes all the above is true and facts, I have no marriage cert only her sisters Sarah and his...Im still thinking Sarah is actually Elizabeth, but they where supposed to been born NSW and only birth cert i can find for either name is Elizabeths born 1849 which would make her 12yrs old when she married. I have Elizabeths childrens marriages Certs, in whcih Elizabeth has signed, and put Alexander as husband etc
I may have missed the reply, but do you have the 1885 Vic BDM death registration for Alexander? Vic BDM documents can be very informative, and can include details of marriage/s, naming spouse/s age/s at marriage and name the children of each marriage.
Alternatively, on the birth certs for Elizabeth's children, what information did Elizabeth give as to when and where she married Alexander? AND do any of those birth certificates list any of the children born to Sarah as though they are full siblings with Elizabeth's children?
JM
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This thread shows what may be available on Vic BDM certs.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,373754.0.html
JM
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Hello everyone, and thankyou for all your information, I have all this info already, the thing is, I cant find a birth cert for Sarah Spring, Have their marriage cert saying married 1861 and she was 20yrs at the time. Then elizabeth came along and no death cert for sarah either. I have how ever found a Elizabeth Spring born NSW 1849, but if she passed in 1888 she would have been like 12 when married. Also Alexander I think has lied about his age, 1824 it states in the Jamaican records, how reliable are they? he says he was 29 when he married Sarah but infact would have been 35/36. Im not sure if sarah was Elizabeth, both had middle name Ada aswell, I have their signatures. Posted on the can you read this writing forum. He seem to have ALOT of children yet im still trying to find a picture of any of them or him, apart from one i have of his son Alexander John born 1862 which is my great grandfather.
May I suggest that you type up the info from that 1861 marriage certificate, it should give you details about both the bride and the groom and their origins and their parents, and even the smallest detail could help the regulars here at RChat to advance your quest.
JM
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... I have how ever found a Elizabeth Spring born NSW 1849, but if she passed in 1888 she would have been like 12 when married. ....
Is this the NSW baptism you mention? Her parents are noted as John and Mary SPRING.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTC2-ZC3
Aged 12 when marrying ... while it is unusual, it was not illegal. Consent needed to be obtained, as an underage person was not yet old enough to give their own consent. The age was raised from 12 to 14 for girls in NSW in 1930s (boys had been 14 but became 16 at that time). It is likely similar legislation existed in Victoria.
JM
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SHM 16 Dec 1863 p1
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13086614?
On the 10th October, by the Rev. Mr. Reid, of Prince-street, Mr. George SPRING, compositor, eldest son of the late John SPRING, of Goulburn, to Mary Jane, second daughter of the late Hugh CARRUTHERS.
I think this is George William SPRING, who was the editor of Monaro Mercury.
Because the matter of signatures is important, I think the substance....and presentation of the 1861 marriage certificate would be useful. Can you give us a scanned image of this document......and any other certificates you have for BDM events for the people named in this research.
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There is an online tree that has a snip of a document from Southern Metropolitan Cemetery Trust dated 25 August 2017.
It is a Location List for MGC-PRE-L807-1107 …. As in Melbourne General Cemetery, Presbyterian, monumental, compartment L, grave 1107.
There are six in that grave: The first two are:
9 July 1885, Alexander PURCELL aged 54
25 May 1888 Elizabeth PURCELL aged 50
Others are
Alex DOUGLAS buried 29 Oct 1893
Frederick NOLAN buried 15 December 1898
John NOLAN buried 31 December 1902
Adelaide NOLAN buried 24 November 1917.
RED POST ...
Yes, I agree with Wivenhoe, the 1861 document as a pdf attachment would be very helpful.
JM
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SHM 16 Dec 1863 p1
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13086614?
On the 10th October, by the Rev. Mr. Reid, of Prince-street, Mr. George SPRING, compositor, eldest son of the late John SPRING, of Goulburn, to Mary Jane, second daughter of the late Hugh CARRUTHERS.
I think this is George William SPRING, who was the editor of Monaro Mercury.
....
Yes, possible. I think this is Mary Jane's dad Hugh :
Sands Sydney Directory 1861
Hugh CARRUTHERS, engraver, 10 Brougham place (Sydney !)
JM
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Sydney Monitor 15 Jan 1838 p3
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/32158672?
On Saturday, the 13th instant, by Special License, at St. Mary's Church, by the Rev. Mr. M'Encroe,
Mr. John SPRING, of Sydney, to Miss Mary HAYES, eldest daughter of the late Mr. W. HAYES, of News
market, Ireland.
Not to hand just now, but........I think the death record for Elizabeth PURCELL names mother as Catherine HAYES?
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Do you have any of the following certificates ?
Births
PURCELL Alexander John
Father Alexander Mother Sarah Ada SPRING
At Collingwood 1862 Reg#8054
PURCELL John
Father Alexander Mother Sarah SPRING
At Emerald Hill 1863 Reg#7752 Died aged 1 Day 1863 Reg#4117
PURCELL Adeline Lavinia
Father Alexander Mother Elizabeth SPRING
At Emerald Hill 1865 Reg#2249
PURCELL Amanda
Father Alexander Mother Elizabeth SPRING
At Emerald Hill 1869 Reg#22263 Died 1871 aged 1 year Reg#3784
PURCELL Elizabeth Mary
Father Alexander Mother Elizabeth SPRING
At Emerald Hill 1869 Reg#2247
Death - birth not registered
PURCELL Amanda
Father: Alexander Mother Elizabeth SPRING
1871 1 year Born Emerald Hill Reg#3784
I agree with others who would like you to attach the 1861 marriage certificate as a pdf so we need to click on the link to view. Avoids breaching copyright issues.
There is no death registration for a Sarah PURCELL on my resource. I tried to check Vic bdm however the registry index is not available due to maintenance.
Cando
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I suggest you also search on TROVE using "alexander purcell" and select Victoria.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/
He appears from 1863 as being continually insolvent and not paying for goods purchased or rent.
I am unable to locate my CD for transcriptions of headstones for the Melbourne General Cemetery however considering the family's financial woes I doubt there would have been one erected at the time of their deaths and the grave has been re-used.
Cando
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Sydney Monitor 15 Jan 1838 p3
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/32158672?
On Saturday, the 13th instant, by Special License, at St. Mary's Church, by the Rev. Mr. M'Encroe,
Mr. John SPRING, of Sydney, to Miss Mary HAYES, eldest daughter of the late Mr. W. HAYES, of News
market, Ireland.
Not to hand just now, but........I think the death record for Elizabeth PURCELL names mother as Catherine HAYES?
Yes, Catherine Hayes:
BDM VIC death
1888 / 7250 PURCELL Elizabeth parents SPRING / Catherine (Hayes)
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This is helpful and bride's mother was NOT Catherine HAYES.
Cando
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Yes, very helpful, including that the Guardian of Minors gave consent.
JM
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Elizabeth PURCELL 1888 death cert.
Cando
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Very speculative ...
There’s a William SPRING, a mariner, aged 63, buried St Stephens, (C of E) Newtown 6 August 1857, death 2nd August, late of the Benevolent Asylum.
NSW BDM index has very little detail, ref #743/1857
JM
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I suggest you also search on TROVE using "alexander purcell" and select Victoria.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/
He appears from 1863 as being continually insolvent and not paying for goods purchased or rent.
I am unable to locate my CD for transcriptions of headstones for the Melbourne General Cemetery however considering the family's financial woes I doubt there would have been one erected at the time of their deaths and the grave has been re-used.
Cando
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Elizabeth PURCELL 1888 death cert.
Cando
hello yes I have this :)
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This is helpful and bride's mother was NOT Catherine HAYES.
Cando
I think but cant prove, that Mary catherine Hayes, was in fact Mary Newall or Mary Hayes aswell, or this might be where Sarah and Elizabeth become two different people and share same fathers different mothers?
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Who are the Mr and Mrs F SPRING cousins of Alexander Jnr?
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article26300241
Jamjar
WOW im over whelmed with all the new research from everyone today, I have no idea who F spring is, but im trying to find out. thankyou
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Sydney Monitor 15 Jan 1838 p3
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/32158672?
On Saturday, the 13th instant, by Special License, at St. Mary's Church, by the Rev. Mr. M'Encroe,
Mr. John SPRING, of Sydney, to Miss Mary HAYES, eldest daughter of the late Mr. W. HAYES, of News
market, Ireland.
Not to hand just now, but........I think the death record for Elizabeth PURCELL names mother as Catherine HAYES?
I think Mary went under a couple of different names, Mary Catherine, Catherine, or maybe even Mary Newall? still researching on this one.
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Did Alexander, born Jamaica, happen to die in Victoria? If so, could this be his death registration? If so, what information is provided on that document re his possible marriages to Sarah Ada and to Elizabeth? Would you consider the informant would have been able to provide reliable information?
1885 PURCELL Alexander Reg. no 9886
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/191200961 The Age 9 July 1885
PURCELL.—On the 8th July, at 54 Heath-street, Port Melbourne, after a long and painful illness, Alexander Purcell, the dearly beloved husband of Elizabeth Purcell, ship steward, aged 54 years.....
and your reply :)
.....
Yes all the above is true and facts, I have no marriage cert only her sisters Sarah and his...Im still thinking Sarah is actually Elizabeth, but they where supposed to been born NSW and only birth cert i can find for either name is Elizabeths born 1849 which would make her 12yrs old when she married. I have Elizabeths childrens marriages Certs, in whcih Elizabeth has signed, and put Alexander as husband etc
I may have missed the reply, but do you have the 1885 Vic BDM death registration for Alexander? Vic BDM documents can be very informative, and can include details of marriage/s, naming spouse/s age/s at marriage and name the children of each marriage.
Alternatively, on the birth certs for Elizabeth's children, what information did Elizabeth give as to when and where she married Alexander? AND do any of those birth certificates list any of the children born to Sarah as though they are full siblings with Elizabeth's children?
JM
I cant find a wedding cert for him and Elizabeth only Sarahs, on some of the children for for elizabeth and him it sais Alexander is their dad, on his death cert it said he was only ever married to Elizabeth, also have the cemetery record stating Elizabeth and Alex are buried together, or next to one another.
https://1drv.ms/b/s!AplGDzaLCsg1qFS2L0o1HPQr4VSt
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Have you considered that either wives may have been a SPRING by previous marriage?
Jamjar
eeek no, I had read they where sisters, but im trying to proove they are the same person, Spring by another marriage, something to consider and definitely do my head in haha
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Do you have any of the following certificates ?
Births
PURCELL Alexander John
Father Alexander Mother Sarah Ada SPRING
At Collingwood 1862 Reg#8054
PURCELL John
Father Alexander Mother Sarah SPRING
At Emerald Hill 1863 Reg#7752 Died aged 1 Day 1863 Reg#4117
PURCELL Adeline Lavinia
Father Alexander Mother Elizabeth SPRING
At Emerald Hill 1865 Reg#2249
PURCELL Amanda
Father Alexander Mother Elizabeth SPRING
At Emerald Hill 1869 Reg#22263 Died 1871 aged 1 year Reg#3784
PURCELL Elizabeth Mary
Father Alexander Mother Elizabeth SPRING
At Emerald Hill 1869 Reg#2247
Death - birth not registered
PURCELL Amanda
Father: Alexander Mother Elizabeth SPRING
1871 1 year Born Emerald Hill Reg#3784
I agree with others who would like you to attach the 1861 marriage certificate as a pdf so we need to click on the link to view. Avoids breaching copyright issues.
There is no death registration for a Sarah PURCELL on my resource. I tried to check Vic bdm however the registry index is not available due to maintenance.
Cando
https://1drv.ms/b/s!AplGDzaLCsg1qFS2L0o1HPQr4VSt Alex and Sarah Marriage Cert
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Did Alexander, born Jamaica, happen to die in Victoria? If so, could this be his death registration? If so, what information is provided on that document re his possible marriages to Sarah Ada and to Elizabeth? Would you consider the informant would have been able to provide reliable information?
1885 PURCELL Alexander Reg. no 9886
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/191200961 The Age 9 July 1885
PURCELL.—On the 8th July, at 54 Heath-street, Port Melbourne, after a long and painful illness, Alexander Purcell, the dearly beloved husband of Elizabeth Purcell, ship steward, aged 54 years.....
and your reply :)
.....
Yes all the above is true and facts, I have no marriage cert only her sisters Sarah and his...Im still thinking Sarah is actually Elizabeth, but they where supposed to been born NSW and only birth cert i can find for either name is Elizabeths born 1849 which would make her 12yrs old when she married. I have Elizabeths childrens marriages Certs, in whcih Elizabeth has signed, and put Alexander as husband etc
I may have missed the reply, but do you have the 1885 Vic BDM death registration for Alexander? Vic BDM documents can be very informative, and can include details of marriage/s, naming spouse/s age/s at marriage and name the children of each marriage.
Alternatively, on the birth certs for Elizabeth's children, what information did Elizabeth give as to when and where she married Alexander? AND do any of those birth certificates list any of the children born to Sarah as though they are full siblings with Elizabeth's children?
JM
https://1drv.ms/b/s!AplGDzaLCsg1qFS2L0o1HPQr4VSt marriage to Sarah and Alexander, ill put up his death cert now.
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This is helpful and bride's mother was NOT Catherine HAYES.
Cando
Cando kindly posted it already
JM
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Sydney Monitor 15 Jan 1838 p3
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/32158672?
On Saturday, the 13th instant, by Special License, at St. Mary's Church, by the Rev. Mr. M'Encroe,
Mr. John SPRING, of Sydney, to Miss Mary HAYES, eldest daughter of the late Mr. W. HAYES, of News
market, Ireland.
Not to hand just now, but........I think the death record for Elizabeth PURCELL names mother as Catherine HAYES?
Just noting that there is a marriage registration for John SPRING to Mary HAYES in 1833 at St Mary's, Sydney. (In fact 2 references: 403/1833 V1833403 126 and 450/1833 V1833450 90) I'm wondering why the 5 year difference, unless it's simply a mistranscription on the NSW BDM index?
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Who are the Mr and Mrs F SPRING cousins of Alexander Jnr?
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article26300241
Jamjar
WOW im over whelmed with all the new research from everyone today, I have no idea who F spring is, but im trying to find out. thankyou
I think Jamjar worked this out in reply #19 ;)
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Hi there,
Did Alexander, born Jamaica, happen to die in Victoria? If so, could this be his death registration? If so, what information is provided on that document re his possible marriages to Sarah Ada and to Elizabeth? Would you consider the informant would have been able to provide reliable information?
1885 PURCELL Alexander Reg. no 9886
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/191200961 The Age 9 July 1885
PURCELL.—On the 8th July, at 54 Heath-street, Port Melbourne, after a long and painful illness, Alexander Purcell, the dearly beloved husband of Elizabeth Purcell, ship steward, aged 54 years
Is this Elizabeth's death? What information is given on that document about her marriage and her children?
1888 PURCELL Elizabeth Spouse's family name Spring Reg. no 7250
JM
Aleanders death cert
https://1drv.ms/b/s!AplGDzaLCsg1qFU0EfYEQQBXm8hE
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Alexanders Death Certh
https://1drv.ms/b/s!AplGDzaLCsg1qFU0EfYEQQBXm8hE
and marriage to Sarah
https://1drv.ms/b/s!AplGDzaLCsg1qFS2L0o1HPQr4VSt
thanks everyone
There is also this, and Application for Convicts to marry 1835, where some have said this is Mary Hayes, or Catherine Mary Hayes, Cartherine mc Carthy, apparently went under many alias, could this also be Mary Newall as stated on sarahs Wedding cert to Alexander? in 1861?
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Seems we can get all info on a brother and a sister, even parents but still no birth cert for a Sarah or death cert, leading me back to thinking Sarah and Eliz are the same person. But if thats so Elizabeth would have been way to young to marry Alexander. If the Elizabeth S born NSW 1849 in fact her, she does state as both the girls have on documents born in NSW.
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Hi Pepewinsome and welcome to rootsChat
Do you know where in NSW your Purcell family lived?
Back in the 1940s/50s there were Purcells at Lake Cargelligo, that I know of.
Plus there may have been some of that name at Hill End, though if he was a mariner then I guess that cuts them out?
Dawn M
I know they lived Emerald Hill Victoira, and also Collingwood Melbourne
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Can you please identify which BDM certificates you have.
The death certificate, 1885 Victoria, for Alexander PURCELL has information given by his son, Alexander. Son Alexander is naming his father's wife, and his father's children. Son Alexander might not be naming his own mother. The marriage certificate for Alexander PURCELL would be useful to see how he names his own mother.
Do you have this certificate -
BDM WA marriage
123 / 1899 PURCELL Alexander John m. BURDAK Helena Olivia Orelia @ Coolgardie
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What is the occupation of Sarah's father on the marriage certificate? I have enlarged it, but still have no idea what it says.
Jamjar
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NSW BDM has Early church records of the marriage of William HIPWOOD and Mary A HAYES in 1835, Volume 19, line 1190. Church of England marriage.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCT-FXV
Possibly his burial in 1859
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FLNT-4X3
NSW BDM has the following death indexed
HIPWOOD William, #759/1859 aged 56 years, died Sydney, registered Sydney.
Trove has
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13026542 SMH 20 June 1859.
Are those others saying Sarah Ada's dad was actually William HIPWOOD? :o
.....
There is also this, and Application for Convicts to marry 1835, where some have said this is Mary Hayes, or Catherine Mary Hayes, Cartherine mc Carthy, apparently went under many alias, could this also be Mary Newall as stated on sarahs Wedding cert to Alexander? in 1861?
Female Convict records often found to contain several surnames ... eg their maiden name, the name they land with, the name they become known by (through informal or formal marriage) etc.
RED POST
I had read Sarah's dad's occupation as perhaps a note from the clergy ... I read it as 'Reputed'. I may well be wrong. ::) ::)
JM
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Are Sarah's folks not William John Spring and Mary Newall?
I thought it was Elizabeth's mother who was a Hayes?
It is possible that Sarah wasn't born in NSW, but thought she was.
What would 'Reputed' as an occupation mean?
Jamjar
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I read the occupation of William John SPRING, on the marriage certificate, 1861, to be "reporter".
John and James SPRING can be found in Trove, convict brothers working at the Government printing office. The SPRING family would seem to be associated with printing / newspapers in NSW through the 19th century.
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Sarah was underage, consent came from the Guardian of Minors (ie from someone in the civil administration) after a search for her parents based likely on info she gave to that officer. I am guessing the Guardian of Minors spoke directly with the clergy. I think the clergy then recorded 'Reputed' to signify that the info about Sarah's parent/s was/were 'Reputed to be' :)
I could well be wrong, but that is how I have made sense of the entry.
Wivenhoe's explanation makes much better sense that my guesswork. :)
JM
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Late to the party ;D but hope I've grasped it all!! I have been reading this thread as it's developed so hope I haven't missed this being said before. Just a small point - if Elizabeth was 50 when she died in 1888 [although I know this information was only the best available to the informant] - she would have been 22/23 in 1861. So patently not the 1849 birth & surely also not requiring permission...
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Can you please identify which BDM certificates you have.
The death certificate, 1885 Victoria, for Alexander PURCELL has information given by his son, Alexander. Son Alexander is naming his father's wife, and his father's children. Son Alexander might not be naming his own mother. The marriage certificate for Alexander PURCELL would be useful to see how he names his own mother.
Do you have this certificate -
BDM WA marriage
123 / 1899 PURCELL Alexander John m. BURDAK Helena Olivia Orelia @ Coolgardie
I dont have this, perhaps I could try order it?
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Late to the party ;D but hope I've grasped it all!! I have been reading this thread as it's developed so hope I haven't missed this being said before. Just a small point - if Elizabeth was 50 when she died in 1888 [although I know this information was only the best available to the informant] - she would have been 22/23 in 1861. So patently not the 1849 birth & surely also not requiring permission...
Hello and welcome to my nightmare haha I for the life of me cant work out if sarah and elizabeth are the same person, I do get that Elizabeth has 1838 as year of birth, by writing she was 50 at her time of death in 88 how ever there are no records of being born in 1838, I can only find 1849 for Elizabeth S spring so far anyway in NSW records online, And no marriage recorded either to Alexander yet either, only Sarah. Both signed their middle names on different documents as ADA which i find weird. Alexander lied about his age I think as I have the Jamaican docs stating he was born 1824 not 1830 as he has written on everything. We will get these sooner or later, Im glad I have everyone helping, my mind is at exploding point, been at this for a few years now off and on.
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:D
Groom's mother Yes! from 1896 on WA marriage registrations
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html
JM
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Hello, new info just in, on Alexanders marriage cert he names his mother as elizabeth...